Dale Snodgrass crash in Idaho

I’ve heard a few pilots say they’ve never heard of him. I guess if you aren’t into military or aerobatic aircraft, especially if you’re young, I can see where you haven’t heard of him.
 
midwestpa24 said:
I can tell you from having to deal with a similar situation ... Unfortunately decorum has gone right out the window.
Click to expand...

Well said. For as much as I believe that public footage should be, well, public, I've also winced at every post I've come across on social media with this footage. There are thousands of them by now, some with informed commentary but most clearly hoping just to generate clicks.

I was Managing Editor at Aero-News during Oshkosh 2007 when Gerry Beck died in the P-51 landing collision. One of our stringers was on the flight line when it happened, and someone next to him had filmed the accident. After a few minutes, the stringer took the initiative to introduce himself, received approval to use the footage and also got the names of some other witnesses. He did his job.

Oshkosh also marked the launch of "Aero-TV" and we knew we had a scoop that would generate attention for the nascent channel. We also knew the footage - which wasn't graphic, but did show the planes colliding and the immediate aftermath - was sensationalistic, but also informative and newsworthy, clearly revealing the accident sequence and providing probable insight into the how and why of it.

However, it was not an easy decision by any means. Our team had a healthy and lengthy debate about whether it was right or decent to publish it, with most of us arguing both the pros and cons of doing so. In the end, we ran the footage (it's on YouTube) with Jim Campbell providing a short intro and closing for context. I don't grant "Zoom" praise for much any more, but I think we - he - handled this one properly.

That said, if I was in that same situation today... I don't think I would have agreed to post it.
 
Rushie said:
I’ve heard a few pilots say they’ve never heard of him. I guess if you aren’t into military or aerobatic aircraft, especially if you’re young, I can see where you haven’t heard of him.
Click to expand...
Fair enough. For those who “have never heard of him” and others who just want to remember a legend who had literally been there and done that…. not many of us can say we have had lock on a MIG, this is worth your time.
This was a tragic loss of life whether a student pilot or legendary fighter pilot. Guys like this make us want to grow up and fly airplanes.
 
About posting the video, I wonder what Dale would have wanted? I didn’t know him well enough to guess. If it were me, I would want the audio removed but the video left up. The audio is too personal. The video has enough potential to help other pilots avoid similar accidents, and I would want it used that way. I would want some good to come out of my death. Yes the NTSB will watch it and announce a conclusion but reading their report is not the same as seeing it yourself, and it might make a difference. But that’s just me, for Dale, they should do whatever he would have wanted.
 
Lndwarrior said:
Sometimes it doesn't take long to figure some things out.

"Welcoming" is not the first word that comes to mind in most of your posts.
Click to expand...
I guess I started it. I could be a student pilot or a MiG Killer but in the end… I’m new here. I hate the interwebs…. For the record, I’m neither.
 
Rushie said:
About posting the video, I wonder what Dale would have wanted? I didn’t know him well enough to guess. If it were me, I would want the audio removed but the video left up. The audio is too personal. The video has enough potential to help other pilots avoid similar accidents, and I would want it used that way. I would want some good to come out of my death. Yes the NTSB will watch it and announce a conclusion but reading their report is not the same as seeing it yourself, and it might make a difference. But that’s just me, for Dale, they should do whatever he would have wanted.
Click to expand...

I don’t think Dale would’ve cared if it got out. I’m sure he witnessed some pretty graphic vids while in the Navy. A lot of those find their way to the internet.

Look how many air show crash vids are on YT. Dale spent portion of his life flying shows and could’ve easily been in one of those vids. I’m sure he knew the risks and he knew a fatal mistake would be impossible to hide from the public.
 
Dusty4315 said:
I guess I started it. I could be a student pilot or a MiG Killer but in the end… I’m new here. I hate the interwebs…. For the record, I’m neither.
Click to expand...

Hey Dusty. I was in the Navy '72 to '76 when the Tomcat first showed up. Snort was there too. Didn't know him. Didn't know he was there.
Tomcat was always my favorite military aircraft and I've seen probably half a dozen shows. Maybe Snort was the pilot in some of them, it's likely. Didn't know it.
Later, after he retired, he did a lot of airshow stuff not involving an F-14 and regrettably I never saw any of it.
I only learned of him from Ward Carroll's YT channel after the crash.
The Navy fighter pilot community is pretty small and tight, I wasn't one of them.
If he was a personal friend of yours my condolences but don't rag on me if he wasn't my hero. I've got lots of hero's, he just wasn't one of them because I didn't know him and that doesn't mean he wasn't a hero or that he shouldn't be your hero.
Okay?
 
Don’t mean to rag on anyone. Perhaps I misinterpreted “never heard of him” as snarky. Just seemed gratuitous in the wake of someone’s death. Flying is an unnatural act and we occasionally lose novices and pros. I was not close to Snort but certainly looked up to him. Moreover, if this happened to him, it could happen to any of us. I’ve been to too many funerals in Arlington to be glib on this kind of thing.
 
Silvaire said:
I only learned of him from Ward Carroll's YT channel after the crash.
Click to expand...
Now how many people have heard of Ward Carroll? I still have a couple of his "Brownshoes in Action" comics tacked on my wall.

Nauga,
and a little jargonomics
 
nauga said:
Now how many people have heard of Ward Carroll? I still have a couple of his "Brownshoes in Action" comics tacked on my wall...
Click to expand...

If you've ever read "Flight of the Intruder" then definitely read "Punk's War" I think there's a lot of Snort in it.
 
After reading through all the threads, the seat back idea is a Cessna thing and I think the gust lock idea will eventually be the cause. One aspect that makes the case is during and after the impact, the elevator is still locked in neutral. The knife edge view shows no deflections. The folks who think Dale is down in the seat could very well be Dale reaching for the gust lock. There appears to be no movement in the controls. Just the same, a very, very tragic accident and one of the worse things a pilot can experience is being in a plane with no options. My primary flight instructor was a recent grad in the 1980s from the Florida school that lost a Tomahawk in a spin. He told me that every switch and valve was in the 'prepare to crash' mode - as the spin became unrecoverable they at least had that to do at the end. Dale didn't even have that.

The other comment on the thread is Patti Wagstaff and her control throws being restricted 4 times. I actually saw one of those times from the announcer's tower. We noticed that she broke off a maneuver and immediately went to a downwind. She told us she had a problem and we tried to keep the public conversation going without drawing attention to her situation, listening with one ear to the radio while directing the crowd attention to another aspect of the event. As she was established on short final to the south we noticed with the reduced airspeed that the nose was starting to slowly drop a bit, in a bit of an arc. About the time it was going to be an issue, she rolled it on the runway. She found the screwdrivers right after that. It was one of those 'remember for a long time' moments. Knowing there was a problem and seeing the nose start to drop down wasn't a very comfortable feeling. It was not wanting to jam it any worse, I would assume. Patti and Duane Cole had a good connection with their aerobatic training together and she was a joy to have as one of our honored aerobatic guests that week.
 
Last edited:
Not being a zoomie or being much interested in fighter aircraft, I had never heard of him either.

If he was revered as much as the amazing pilots I have known and known of, then it is a sad day indeed.
 
Honestly I don't want to say he screwed the pooch and feel I don't even have the right to even think that\

But maybe it's confession time: When I got my own airplane and had it in my own hangar and nobody but me ever flew it I had two instances of parts that were on the aircraft when I took off but weren't there when I landed.
 
Silvaire said:
Honestly I don't want to say he screwed the pooch and feel I don't even have the right to even think that\

But maybe it's confession time: When I got my own airplane and had it in my own hangar and nobody but me ever flew it I had two instances of parts that were on the aircraft when I took off but weren't there when I landed.
Click to expand...
As part of my accident analysis work, I've read about ~5000 aircraft accident reports. There have been a few cases of "what was that guy thinking," but the majority of the accidents involve pilots making minor sorts of decision errors that can happen to any of us. Most of us have just been lucky that the circumstances didn't stack up on us.

I ran an analysis once, comparing homebuilt pilots with 20,000+ flight hours with pilots having 40-100 hours. Certainly the lower-time pilots saw more cases of not controlling the aircraft properly, or of making the wrong decision, but the difference wasn't that great. Forty percent of the accidents involving high-time pilots are due to pilot error... mistakes in handling the aircraft, buzzing, fuel exhaustion, etc. Forty percent.

So we're all vulnerable, whether we're weekend 172 renters or retired military or airline pilots. The important thing is to remember, when you strap your airplane on, that it CAN happen to you. A lot of folks seem to sneer at those who die trying the "impossible turn." But it's easier to imagine landing the plane straight ahead sitting comfortably at your keyboard, vs. actually sitting in the cockpit with a stopped prop, the trees getting close, worried passengers, and the thought that maybe, just maybe, a bit tighter bank will make everything OK.

To be a safe pilot, you have to recognize that you have the potential for making mistakes. Never look at *any* accident saying, "Hey, *I'm* not that stupid." Given the same circumstances, given the same two seconds of decision time, and you might just make the same errors. Examine other people's accidents, find the key factors, decide what would have been a better approach. If it does then happen to you, you've had a chance to consider the right decisions.

Ron Wanttaja
 
skyking3286 said:
After reading through all the threads, the seat back idea is a Cessna thing and I think the gust lock idea will eventually be the cause. One aspect that makes the case is during and after the impact, the elevator is still locked in neutral. The knife edge view shows no deflections. The folks who think Dale is down in the seat could very well be Dale reaching for the gust lock. There appears to be no movement in the controls. Just the same, a very, very tragic accident and one of the worse things a pilot can experience is being in a plane with no options. My primary flight instructor was a recent grad in the 1980s from the Florida school that lost a Tomahawk in a spin. He told me that every switch and valve was in the 'prepare to crash' mode - as the spin became unrecoverable they at least had that to do at the end. Dale didn't even have that.

The other comment on the thread is Patti Wagstaff and her control throws being restricted 4 times. I actually saw one of those times from the announcer's tower. We noticed that she broke off a maneuver and immediately went to a downwind. She told us she had a problem and we tried to keep the public conversation going without drawing attention to her situation, listening with one ear to the radio while directing the crowd attention to another aspect of the event. As she was established on short final to the south we noticed with the reduced airspeed that the nose was starting to slowly drop a bit, in a bit of an arc. About the time it was going to be an issue, she rolled it on the runway. She found the screwdrivers right after that. It was one of those 'remember for a long time' moments. Knowing there was a problem and seeing the nose start to drop down wasn't a very comfortable feeling. It was not wanting to jam it any worse, I would assume. Patti and Duane Cole had a good connection with their aerobatic training together and she was a joy to have as one of our honored aerobatic guests that week.
Click to expand...

I thought this model the gust lock also locks the rudder peddles? How would he be able to steer it?
 
Hard to say. One of the questions that might point to a cargo shift that locked the stick too. But something locked up the controls, for sure elevator and aileron. IMHO.
 
Hmmm.... an interesting, albeit not surprising, take away, is how his (FWIW I had not heard of him either, and I’m CERTAIN I’ve seen him perform, possibly met him, I flew off carriers in those days) celebrity has generated a lot more (generally constructive) commentary.

His celebrity is the only difference between this and a dozen (random number) equally tragic videos.

I think that’s a good thing.
 
Rushie said:
Well there ya go. Without watching the video again, I think Juan Brown pointed out that the audio is NOT in sync with the video, IOW the point where he says, “Ah **** ****!” might not be exactly when he said it in real time. It would be telling if he had said it much earlier than depicted. “Much” is relative of course. If the gust lock was in place I would think you’d realize it (seconds) sooner than if something shifted or jammed the controls just after takeoff. In any case I don’t think there’s any way to differentially interpret his expletive as meaning “I screwed up” as opposed to “Something broke” from just the sound of it. Trying to interpret it from timing might be marginally enlightening, if still speculative.
Click to expand...

PaulS said:
I actually think the Ah **** **** was right after liftoff. This is sad, I hope they are able to find out what happened.
Click to expand...

I think its very obvious the sound track is off, and I'm estimating at least 10 seconds. The would put the expletive right as the wheels leave the ground, possibly a little earlier.
 
I saw him at Andrews several times. "Snort" and "The Pukin' Dogs" are phrases you tend to remember.
 
The bath-tub curve applies to pilots also.

wanttaja said:
As part of my accident analysis work, I've read about ~5000 aircraft accident reports. There have been a few cases of "what was that guy thinking," but the majority of the accidents involve pilots making minor sorts of decision errors that can happen to any of us. Most of us have just been lucky that the circumstances didn't stack up on us.

I ran an analysis once, comparing homebuilt pilots with 20,000+ flight hours with pilots having 40-100 hours. Certainly the lower-time pilots saw more cases of not controlling the aircraft properly, or of making the wrong decision, but the difference wasn't that great. Forty percent of the accidents involving high-time pilots are due to pilot error... mistakes in handling the aircraft, buzzing, fuel exhaustion, etc. Forty percent.

So we're all vulnerable, whether we're weekend 172 renters or retired military or airline pilots. The important thing is to remember, when you strap your airplane on, that it CAN happen to you. A lot of folks seem to sneer at those who die trying the "impossible turn." But it's easier to imagine landing the plane straight ahead sitting comfortably at your keyboard, vs. actually sitting in the cockpit with a stopped prop, the trees getting close, worried passengers, and the thought that maybe, just maybe, a bit tighter bank will make everything OK.

To be a safe pilot, you have to recognize that you have the potential for making mistakes. Never look at *any* accident saying, "Hey, *I'm* not that stupid." Given the same circumstances, given the same two seconds of decision time, and you might just make the same errors. Examine other people's accidents, find the key factors, decide what would have been a better approach. If it does then happen to you, you've had a chance to consider the right decisions.

Ron Wanttaja
Click to expand...
 
I didn't know Snort, but have tremendous respect for his service, both to the military and to the aviation community. And in that light, I can only think that he would understand and appreciate the thoughtful analysis of the possible causes of this tragedy by pilots here and elsewhere, to potentially avoid similar accidents in the future. Whether it was pilot error, mechanical failure, etc., a pilot of his stature would want the cause determined and revealed for the benefit of others. I'm sure he participated in many post-crash analyses during his long career.
 
How did he get the call sign “Snort?” I never heard of him either before his accident.
 
Nothing wrong with not knowing who the guy was. We’ve had pilots on here say the same when an astronaut passes. If you weren’t into the space program, you probably wouldn’t know. If you’re not into military aviation, you’d never hear about Snort. If you weren’t into air shows and the various aircraft he flew on the circuit you’d never have heard of him either.

29548FDE-1EA0-444D-8C37-B569C1B8BF3C.jpeg

Speaking of another legendary F-14 pilot that passed, I hadn’t heard that Joe “Hoser” Satrapa passed a couple years back. He was a good friend of Snort’s and also well known for his F-14 exploits. But, you don’t have to be into Naval Aviation or even air shows to appreciate the lives these gentlemen lived. Some great stories of Hoser including one with Snort.

https://fireaviation.com/2019/03/24/joe-hoser-satrapa-rip/
 
Last edited:
I don’t think most of us commenting in accident forums think things can’t happen to us. Just looking at the chain & where any links could of been broken to avoid the tragic event, as all are.

Does anyone know how long the plane was on the ground before this takeoff? The other thing, was any maintenance done? I ask, seems many of us wouldn’t put a gust lock in place for a shorter stop?

As to any maintenance, if any was done, the timeline from taxi to t/o is generally longer? That’s not to say there wasn’t another ground run or flight. In one comment I saw mention that he flew some other(or accident) plane in an hour prior?

I didn’t know him personally, I was on the 89 Med/IO cruise with the USS AMERICA. During that cruise he was XO of the VF Squadron, F-14’s. I learned more about all his other flying the last few weeks.

https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/103534/pdf

 Not much in the prelim, no mention of maintenance.
 
Last edited:
sourdough44 said:
I don’t think most of us commenting in accident forums think things can’t happen to us. Just looking at the chain & where any links could of been broken to avoid the tragic event, as all are.

Does anyone know how long the plane was on the ground before this takeoff? The other thing, was any maintenance done? I ask, seems many of us wouldn’t put a gust lock in place for a shorter stop?

As to any maintenance, if any was done, the timeline from taxi to t/o is generally longer? That’s not to say there wasn’t another ground run or flight. In one comment I saw mention that he flew some other(or accident) plane in an hour prior?

I didn’t know him personally, I was on the 89 Med/IO cruise with the USS AMERICA. During that cruise he was XO of the VF Squadron, F-14’s. I learned more about all his other flying the last few weeks.

https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/103534/pdf

 Not much in the prelim, no mention of maintenance.
Click to expand...

Kathryn’s report, a recent anon commenter says that he dropped the plane off there on June 30 and didn’t fly it again until the accident flight on July 24. They go on to speculate about runaway trim.

Also: https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/103534/pdf
 
Velocity173 said:
Nothing wrong with not knowing who the guy was. We’ve had pilots on here say the same when an astronaut passes. If you weren’t into the space program, you probably wouldn’t know. If you’re not into military aviation, you’d never hear about Snort. If you weren’t into air shows and the various aircraft he flew on the circuit you’d never have heard of him either.
Click to expand...

Honestly I wouldn’t have known who he was if I hadn’t gotten into aerobatics. Well, at least an interest and an intro flight in St. Augustine where we met him and Patty. Mark and I were planning to schedule lessons with Nancy Lynn. We flew up there, met and talked with her. But then, she crashed and died doing an air show. After that, our interest fizzled out, not because of that, but I guess it didn’t help.
 
Dusty4315 said:
Don’t mean to rag on anyone. Perhaps I misinterpreted “never heard of him” as snarky. Just seemed gratuitous in the wake of someone’s death. Flying is an unnatural act and we occasionally lose novices and pros. I was not close to Snort but certainly looked up to him. Moreover, if this happened to him, it could happen to any of us. I’ve been to too many funerals in Arlington to be glib on this kind of thing.
Click to expand...

I agree with you. It was snarky and dickish, and had no purpose except to start an argument. I'm glad you called him out. I'm just going to report and block him.
 
Last edited:
Does the gust lock position the elevator in neutral or fully deflected upwards?

Every taildragger pilot knows you taxi with the stick full rearward, buried in your gut. But that makes it pretty hard to get seated, since buried in your gut is usually also pressed against the front edge of the seat. Which makes it pretty hard to get in, taxi, and takeoff without noticing the gust lock is in position.
 
Snodgrass is in the recent documentary on F-14's, "Tomcat Tales." The whole thing is a decent watch, and he describes the circumstances of the well-known flyby photo.

Nauga,
and a little perspective
 
Brad W said:
He was also part of that little dog fight with the Libyans back in the 1980's.
Click to expand...
Uhhh...which one and in what role? He wasn't a shooter in either the 1981 or 1989 shootdown engagements.

Nauga,
with respect for him and those involved
 
Ed Haywood said:
….It was snarky…
Click to expand...

agreed

Ed Haywood said:
and dickish…
Click to expand...

agreed

Ed Haywood said:
and had no purpose…
Click to expand...

agreed

Ed Haywood said:
except to start an argument…
Click to expand...

agreed

Ed Haywood said:
I'm glad you called him out…
Click to expand...

agreed

Ed Haywood said:
I'm just going to report him…
Click to expand...

git outta here with that silly cr@p

Ed Haywood said:
and block him.
Click to expand...

agreed
 
Rushie said:
Honestly I wouldn’t have known who he was if I hadn’t gotten into aerobatics. Well, at least an interest and an intro flight in St. Augustine where we met him and Patty. Mark and I were planning to schedule lessons with Nancy Lynn. We flew up there, met and talked with her. But then, she crashed and died doing an air show. After that, our interest fizzled out, not because of that, but I guess it didn’t help.
Click to expand...

Yeah I remember her accident. Son was narrating. Tragic.

I took an aerobatic lesson right down the road at Flagler. The owners of the flight school were Daniel and Montaine of the French Connection. Got to meet them and chat with Daniel about his French AF flying. Sadly they’d die at that airport about a year later doing a practice show.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top