Why are pilots so hesitant to declare an emergency?

So if any urgent situation came up with a guy named Peter flying a cub low on gas in the three rivers area……


“Pittsburgh, pilot Peter petrol Pan Pan in a Piper”
 
PAN PAN PAN is not a emergency declaration, it is a declaration of urgency.
MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY is the equivalent of a emergency declaration.

The definition of emergency states it’s either a distress or urgency. Even the AIM states to squawk 7700 for either a distress or urgency. The only thing that matters is how it’s treated on the ATC side. They provide assistance to all aircraft declaring an emergency but are specifically instructed to give priority to aircraft in distress.

CF5BE02D-54E1-4A6E-82FD-FA44562EBB4C.jpeg
 
This thread is a long study on macho attitudes and pilots' reluctance to declare, but this post here gets closest to the important point. Declaring an emergency is a bit like telling someone you're pregnant. It's the situation, not the talking about it, that makes an emergency. Even if you wouldn't necessarily consider an inflight fire to be an emergency, if it makes you want to land on a runway other than the runway in use, then it's an emergency. And exercising the power of 91.3 doesn't require a "declaration," that's just how it's communicated.
Yes, but the real point if my story is that the communication can have independent importance. Even if you don't think ATC can help you (a common excuse) it gives them the opportunity to move others out of your way. The pilot in my story faced enforcement action, along with its stress and expense, not because he had an emergency, but because his descent deviated from his clearance (91.123). It resulted in a loss of IFR separation, a danger to others in addition to the pilot. Had he taken the time to key the mic with as little as, "[callsign] Emergency! Engine failure. Unable maintain altitude," there might have been no loss of separation, and nothing more than a polite follow-up discussion.
 
PAN PAN PAN is not a emergency declaration, it is a declaration of urgency.
MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY is the equivalent of a emergency declaration.

I was quoting the Pilot/Controller Glossary. If you think it's wrong, you should be telling the FAA, not me!
 
What is the difference?

AND..... instead of declaring emergency, has anyone called out a Pan Pan?

I have made PAN PAN PAN calls more than once.

The first time was when the tower at Stockton (SCK) stopped responding to radio calls. I was inbound and never got a landing clearance after my initial contact.

I called on the tower frequency after it was obvious they had gone dark. There were lots of other inbound flights, so it was soon understood they lost power or radios...

We all made non-tower calls and landed. ATC came back on in a few minutes.

Not really an emergency, but pretty unusual and unexpected.
 
Reading all this pan-pan and mayday stuff…
Who actually says that when already talking to ATC?? That would be a bit goofy.

Also, question for the ATC guys here… Do you treat medical emergencies any different than a general aircraft emergency?
 
Reading all this pan-pan and mayday stuff…
Who actually says that when already talking to ATC?? That would be a bit goofy.

Also, question for the ATC guys here… Do you treat medical emergencies any different than a general aircraft emergency?
My emergency was a case of missed opportunities - did not get Flight following despite using it on the outbound trip, flying lower due to headwinds, despite flying higher on the outbound trip. So I had to dial 121.5 and yell MAYDAY for Boston Center to pickup. In the NYC area, you have to say those words or you will get drowned out by a constant stream of traffic and ATC calls. NY Approach is great but does not give a damn if a little piston plane wants to talk to them when they are busy with two dozen jets. Say MAYDAY and the frequency is magically all yours.
 
Reading all this pan-pan and mayday stuff…
Who actually says that when already talking to ATC?? That would be a bit goofy.

Also, question for the ATC guys here… Do you treat medical emergencies any different than a general aircraft emergency?
No. Other than medical emergencies don’t usually have engines on fire and stuff like that. But if the pilot has said it’s an emergency our job is to assist and help as much as possible. So like a guy who is emergency low fuel and wants direct to an airport he gets it, just as a guy who says they have a passenger who needs to get down now gets it. ATC’s job is to get other planes outta the way and make it work.
 
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Reading all this pan-pan and mayday stuff…
Who actually says that when already talking to ATC?? That would be a bit goofy.

Also, question for the ATC guys here… Do you treat medical emergencies any different than a general aircraft emergency?

Like I said earlier, maybe half a dozen emergencies I worked doing ATC, all of them simply stated “(callsign) declaring an emergency (reason).” It’s really not that important for a Pan Pan or Mayday with comms already established unless the pilot wants to make it clear it’s a distress (Mayday).

You tailor the service to the type of emergency. If it’s a distress, you give priority. If it’s just an emergency and no idea of distress vs urgency, use best judgment on priority. At all times, provide the necessary assistance to help the pilot deal with the emergency.

For instance, the Aztec I mentioned earlier, I was vectoring him to the closest airport. Guy doesn’t have time to figure out runways, freqs, etc. I issued all that to reduce workload on the pilot. Had an F-18 engine out on take off and needed to immediately hold and dump fuel. “Blade 11, cleared to fly the southeast quadrant of the Marine Beaufort TACAN with 30 miles DME, maintain block 5,000 through 10,000.” Gave him a chunk of airspace so he could concentrate on troubleshooting and not navigating. Medical emergency, unless the pilot is trying to do basic life support techniques to the passenger, they shouldn’t be too preoccupied so the whole, aviate, navigate and communicate won’t be an issue. Just need to get on the ground ASAP and have EMS waiting.
 
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Reading all this pan-pan and mayday stuff…
Who actually says that when already talking to ATC?? That would be a bit goofy.
The fact that it sounds a bit goofy might be a good reason to use it under certain circumstances. Might induce a break in nonstop radio chatter just because people aren’t used to hearing it.
 
My emergency was a case of missed opportunities - did not get Flight following despite using it on the outbound trip, flying lower due to headwinds, despite flying higher on the outbound trip. So I had to dial 121.5 and yell MAYDAY for Boston Center to pickup. In the NYC area, you have to say those words or you will get drowned out by a constant stream of traffic and ATC calls. NY Approach is great but does not give a damn if a little piston plane wants to talk to them when they are busy with two dozen jets. Say MAYDAY and the frequency is magically all yours.
Well, if you’re not talking initially to ATC, I somewhat understand… but, all ATC will perk up when you say the E word.
 
The fact that it sounds a bit goofy might be a good reason to use it under certain circumstances. Might induce a break in nonstop radio chatter just because people aren’t used to hearing it.
I think the E word would do just fine. If you can find a break in the chatter for a mayday, you can find a break for the E word.
 
Like I said earlier, maybe half a dozen emergencies I worked doing ATC, all of them simply stated “(callsign) declaring an emergency (reason).” It’s really not that important for a Pan Pan or Mayday with comms already established unless the pilot wants to make it clear it’s a distress (Mayday).
For me, the problem with Pan Pan is the time I would spend thinking about whether I was using it improperly! So simple to just use the "E" word.
 
I think the E word would do just fine. If you can find a break in the chatter for a mayday, you can find a break for the E word.
I agree. If you can't find a break in communications, 7700 does the job.
Ultimately, it doesn't matter, so long as it gets the message across.
 
I think the E word would do just fine. If you can find a break in the chatter for a mayday, you can find a break for the E word.
I couldn’t find a break in the chatter. I was just going to “pan-pan” for about five seconds, and hope it got heard through the squeal, but the controller noticed that we were 40 knots below our assigned speed. ;)
 
I haven’t done an analysis, but I suspect imminent death was not a player in the overwhelming majority of emergencies, declared or otherwise.

I tend to extrapolate, in my mind, to the most negative possible outcome any event worthy of labeling an emergency. Perhaps I should have left off the word “imminent” though. Death might only be “ultimate” in most cases, and avoidable if you take action early on.
 
I heard someone do it at Palo Alto Airport once. I don't remember what the reason was.
If it was in the early 2000s that was quite possibly me. Seems like I used to call Pan at least once a week. I really miss that job.

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“Pittsburgh, pilot Peter petrol Pan Pan in a Piper”

Perhaps Peter in a Piper is possibly perturbed at being placed in this perpetual pickle near Pittsburg ...
 
I once had a flap motor catch on fire while on a long final at PTK flying a rental 172. After a few seconds of disbelief, I called tower on the radio and told them I had a fire on my wing, most likely from a flap motor (flaps quit working, I noticed the flaps quit working, looked out and saw lots of smoke on my right wing). They immediately responded, "Do you want to declare an emergency?" I suppose I should have without hesitation said "yes", but I didn't. After a pause, I said "no". I wasn't afraid of declaring, I just didn't see how it helped my situation what so ever, and I had my hands full. I landed, turned right to the waiting fire trucks (I think those guys must sit waiting in their trucks, they got out there so fast), and pulled the mixture/switched off the mains.
Part of the problem of declaring, at least to me, is you have to "think about it", and sometimes in an emergency you are task saturated, and you don't have the mental reserve left to make a good decision.

This is the best post I've read in a long time. The only way it could have been better is if you'd replied "no, just the one wing is on fire, I'm OK." Controllers were probably wondering if a) you've flown close air support b) you used to work for an airline with an incredibly crappy maintenance program, or c) you're just a really calm guy.
 
This is the best post I've read in a long time. The only way it could have been better is if you'd replied "no, just the one wing is on fire, I'm OK." Controllers were probably wondering if a) you've flown close air support b) you used to work for an airline with an incredibly crappy maintenance program, or c) you're just a really calm guy.
Lmao. Controller coulda come back with “that’s good, the whole Fire Department called in sick today
 
This is the best post I've read in a long time. The only way it could have been better is if you'd replied "no, just the one wing is on fire, I'm OK." Controllers were probably wondering if a) you've flown close air support b) you used to work for an airline with an incredibly crappy maintenance program, or c) you're just a really calm guy.
My brother was with me at the time (a non-pilot). Once we were on the ground, he turned to me and said, "How the hell did you stay so calm?" I responded, "Somebody had to fly the plane." Maybe its from years of working in law enforcement experiencing numerous high stress situations, but I've never found "panic" to be an appropriate response to getting a job done. Not trying to sound macho, just more about experience to stress I guess.
 
My brother was with me at the time (a non-pilot). Once we were on the ground, he turned to me and said, "How the hell did you stay so calm?" I responded, "Somebody had to fly the plane." Maybe its from years of working in law enforcement experiencing numerous high stress situations, but I've never found "panic" to be an appropriate response to getting a job done. Not trying to sound macho, just more about experience to stress I guess.

When I was taking my flight lessons I was also instructing and continuing my training in martial arts. My CFI kept doing everything he could to rattle me for emergencies. I can't remember if he ever got as far as pulling the mixture, but he finally gave up and asked why haven't I stressed out at any of the things he's done. "On Friday, I was fighting three black belts at once. I had half a second to make a decision, and plan for the next two attackers before I have to do it again. We are at 5,000 feet and the engine quit. I have around five minutes to try and get the engine restarted and find a landing spot. You know how long five minutes is compared to what I just went through Friday?"

When I did have an engine go quiet years later, there was still no stress. It's all perspective, as it is with all things in life.
 
Sounds about right. In our club, a guy lost vacuum power/went partial panel while in IFR. Declared an emergency. To me, yeah - no shade on that. That got however "chatted up" a bit by some in the club. So, short of a fire, wing falling off, or a knife fight, I can see the reluctance.
I thought we were required to announce these types of failures under IFR.

I've had a vacuum failure in IMC. Explained as required (I think) but didn't request any assistance. An early decent to VMC would plow through LGB's d-space, which is exactly what they did for me.:eek2: I think they silently declare for us sometimes cause tower asked if I was ok.
 
I thought we were required to announce these types of failures under IFR.

I've had a vacuum failure in IMC. Explained as required (I think) but didn't request any assistance. An early decent to VMC would plow through LGB's d-space, which is exactly what they did for me.:eek2: I think they silently declare for us sometimes cause tower asked if I was ok.
Yeah, 91.187 says you are supposed to report malfunctions like that. You did but didn't request assistance. Emergencies are sometimes 'silently' as you put it, declared. A controller or the aircraft operator can declare an emergency. There is no requirement that the pilot be verbally told that it has been done. The Tower asking if you were ok does not mean that an emergency was declared. Controllers are required to relay the malfunction report to other Controllers. Probably went something liker this. "Lost his vacuum pump, not declaring and he's doing just fine up there."
 
Reading all this pan-pan and mayday stuff…
Who actually says that when already talking to ATC?? That would be a bit goofy.

Also, question for the ATC guys here… Do you treat medical emergencies any different than a general aircraft emergency?
The pilot of United 328 did when it had an uncontained engine failure climbing out of Denver.
 
I was quoting the Pilot/Controller Glossary. If you think it's wrong, you should be telling the FAA, not me!
Straight out of the FAA Pilot Controller Glossary
PAN-PAN- The international radio-telephony urgen- cy signal. When repeated three times, indicates uncertainty or alert followed by the nature of the urgency.
(See MAYDAY.) (Refer to AIM.)

here is a link
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/media/pcg_basic_w_chg_1_2_3_dtd_12-31-20.pdf

MayDay
MAYDAY- The international radiotelephony distress signal. When repeated three times, it indicates imminent and grave danger and that immediate assistance is requested

Domestically declare Emergency and yes domestically they know ICAO Mayday for emergency and Pan for urgency.

International Mayday for immediate assistance
Pan for urgency
Internationally the controllers know ICAO pilot controller English so Mayday for immediate assistance and Pan for urgency.
They may not know emergency if not a English speaking country.
 
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Straight out of the FAA Pilot Controller Glossary
PAN-PAN- The international radio-telephony urgen- cy signal. When repeated three times, indicates uncertainty or alert followed by the nature of the urgency.
(See MAYDAY.) (Refer to AIM.)

here is a link
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/media/pcg_basic_w_chg_1_2_3_dtd_12-31-20.pdf

MayDay
MAYDAY- The international radiotelephony distress signal. When repeated three times, it indicates imminent and grave danger and that immediate assistance is requested
Those Pilot/Controller Glossary passages don't contradict the Pilot/Controller Glossary passages that I quoted.
 
other than it’s exactly as I stated originally

But you’re still wrong. The .65 specifically states that an emergency is either a distress or urgency.

5B507A00-861A-4460-B25F-6527DC703ECE.jpeg

The AIM backs up that statement.

00EC7B16-F275-489D-A6D2-E0CAB912B09D.jpeg
 
Because there’s a ton of paperwork involved. :rolleyes:
Flew fighters, so I’ve declared “Emergency” more times than I can remember. Paperwork? Never! Say the E word early and you’ll be glad you did.
 
Yes, only 165 hrs in it, Georgia ANG, 1985.
When you said you flew fighters and declared emergencies more times than you can remember I was wondering. I was a Controller working at a field full of F4’s. F4 emergencies seemed almost a daily occurrence. Most BLC failures. We and Crash Crew called them Bacon Lettuce and Cheeses
 
Seems like emergencies are par for the course for all types of fighters. Much more reliable today but I can’t even tell you the number of engine outs / hyd / FCS failures I saw with F-18s doing ATC.

Speaking of Georgia ANG, worked a flight of 4 or 5 “Peach” F-15s on arrival. Every one of them emergency fuel divert from SAV. Was an absolute **** show. :(
 
When I was taking my flight lessons I was also instructing and continuing my training in martial arts. My CFI kept doing everything he could to rattle me for emergencies. I can't remember if he ever got as far as pulling the mixture, but he finally gave up and asked why haven't I stressed out at any of the things he's done. "On Friday, I was fighting three black belts at once. I had half a second to make a decision, and plan for the next two attackers before I have to do it again. We are at 5,000 feet and the engine quit. I have around five minutes to try and get the engine restarted and find a landing spot. You know how long five minutes is compared to what I just went through Friday?"

When I did have an engine go quiet years later, there was still no stress. It's all perspective, as it is with all things in life.
It’s always been interesting to me that with one exception, my engine failures have resulted in less stress than my missed approaches (7 each in real life). I guess over the years engine failures have gotten way more emphasis in training.
 
Seems like emergencies are par for the course for all types of fighters. Much more reliable today but I can’t even tell you the number of engine outs / hyd / FCS failures I saw with F-18s doing ATC.

Speaking of Georgia ANG, worked a flight of 4 or 5 “Peach” F-15s on arrival. Every one of them emergency fuel divert from SAV. Was an absolute **** show. :(
FCS ??
 

Flight Control System. Not the entire thing, just like a computer fault. Seemed like the early A models had the issues from what I was told.

I’d say the number one emergency with the Hornet that I saw was fuel. They’d go out the Warning Area, burn up their gas then only have enough for a couple of approaches. GCA misses the hand off, you tell the pilot you’re gonna box him out for another. Pilot states “request contact approach.” You clear him for a contact to the crossing runway. Tower sends him around because an H-46 is on it. “Tower, Nikel 35 emergency fuel.” Tower clears him for immediate landing on the crossing runway and issues “abandon approach” to the flight of two on a 3 mile GCA final. They now declare emergency fuel and the whole thing turns into a soup sandwich. :(
 
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