TSA delays......

No, not at all. Privatization is almost always less efficient and more expensive - for tasks that should be done by the government. But for tasks that don't really need to be done at all, when you can hire people to pretend to work and just put on a show, it can be cheaper and faster. Government contractors are EXCELLENT at pretending to do something, and that's what TSA is all about.

I miss the old days of air travel, too, except that I am happy that they now take de-icing pretty seriously.
Privatization only works if it's set up so there's competition. If it's set up as a monopoly, there no incentive to make things more efficient and less expensive. That's one reason why privatized ATC is problematic; there's no way to set up competing ATC services.
 
I’m probably missing something but privatizing *anything* means adding a cost to cover the profit that managers expect. They aren’t exactly selling a product to do this so the result is a less secure environment and the same problem with finding employees willing to work for dirt wages and benefits. I’m just failing to see how privatizing the TSA would solve anything. Same with ATC. Firefighters. Etc. Some form of socialism is necessary for a functioning society. The question is how to make it work better for the citizens utilizing those services.
Prior to 9/11 there was no TSA. Airport security and passenger screening policy were set by feds and executed locally. It was much less expensive than TSA.
As a side note none of the terrorists on 9/11 were in possession of prohibited items. They took advantage of weaknesses in our policy. There was no need to create the TSA and start groping passengers.
 
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Privatization only works if it's set up so there's competition. If it's set up as a monopoly, there no incentive to make things more efficient and less expensive. That's one reason why privatized ATC is problematic; there's no way to set up competing ATC services.
That existed prior to TSA. There were multiple security contractors in the country.

has it been so long ago that we have forgotten what it was like before TSA?

Stockholm syndrome?
 
Prior to 9/11 there was no TSA. Airport security and passenger screening policy were set by feds and executed locally. It was much less expensive than TSA.
As a side note none of the terrorists on 9/11 were in possession of prohibited items. They took advantage of weaknesses in our policy. There was no need to create the TSA and start groping passengers.

Yes but before TSA there was no social media. Now that we have social media it is too easy to mislead, influence and radicalize folks. Now that we have social media we need more security to keep the homegrown threat in check as much as possible.

If you don’t like the wait times just enroll in Clear, get all your biometric data put into a computer system (partially owned by Delta) and rest assured. It isn’t possible for Clear to be hacked and biometric data stollen.
 
Yes but before TSA there was no social media. Now that we have social media it is too easy to mislead, influence and radicalize folks. Now that we have social media we need more security to keep the homegrown threat in check as much as possible
And how, exactly, does the TSA provide “more security”?
 
And how, exactly, does the TSA provide “more security”?

well, they check ID, scan your baggage, they run you through a metal detector or body scanner. They stop you from getting through if you forget to leave your gun in the safe.
 
well, they check ID, scan your baggage, they run you through a metal detector or body scanner. They stop you from getting through if you forget to leave your gun in the safe.

Nope. Plenty of cases where they've missed that and knives and numerous other weapons.
The Department of Homeland Security carried out covert tests on TSA security, and the results weren’t pretty.

The results of the tests showed that the TSA screeners failed to detect weapons, drugs, and explosives almost 80 percent of the time. While the exact failure rate is classified, multiple sources indicate it is greater than 70 percent.


And if I wanted to, nothing the TSA does would prevent me from taking over an airliner. But keep chugging that Kool-Aid at the sheep trough.
 
well, they check ID, scan your baggage, they run you through a metal detector or body scanner. They stop you from getting through if you forget to leave your gun in the safe.
Oh…by “more security” you mean “the same level of security we’d have if the TSA hadn’t been created”.
 
well, they check ID, scan your baggage, they run you through a metal detector or body scanner. They stop you from getting through if you forget to leave your gun in the safe.

not always...
 
I disagree. Almost every airline is going to hire a record amount of pilots in the next few years and they either put in large orders for aircraft or buying used ones from other airlines. They want to rapidly expand. I don’t think they’re too worried. They can’t sit on sidelines and get caught with their pants down which is basically what happened in late 2020. They either furloughed or offered too many early retirements and let too many people take leaves. Hold time for reservations at Delta can be up to 8 hours. Rampers are cross training as gate agents because there’s not enough. It’s full steam ahead. Hell, they’re training me on the 737 and I’m only going to fly it for 6-8 months before I go to the 757/767. They needed butts in the seats yesterday.
And I disagree with you. I used to fly 25-30 trips per year in my job. I'm not doing that job anymore but the guys that are now figure 2-5 trips per year. My wife was making about the same number of trip as I was. She thinks that next year it will be about 10-15. Businesses have figured out that all that travel which was an absolute necessity isn't really all that necessary.

Things change.

For example, I remember having a SkyTel pager. As soon as I would get off the flight, I'd head for the first bank of payphones to make calls. If you weren't in the front of the plane, sometimes you had to go to the 2nd or 3rd bank of phones before you could find an available phone. Nowadays, you'll see a couple of sad, unused payphones every now and then.

Things change.

I think Covid is going to have a huge, lasting impact on business travel and office space real estate.
 
And I disagree with you. I used to fly 25-30 trips per year in my job. I'm not doing that job anymore but the guys that are now figure 2-5 trips per year. My wife was making about the same number of trip as I was. She thinks that next year it will be about 10-15. Businesses have figured out that all that travel which was an absolute necessity isn't really all that necessary.

Things change.

For example, I remember having a SkyTel pager. As soon as I would get off the flight, I'd head for the first bank of payphones to make calls. If you weren't in the front of the plane, sometimes you had to go to the 2nd or 3rd bank of phones before you could find an available phone. Nowadays, you'll see a couple of sad, unused payphones every now and then.

Things change.

I think Covid is going to have a huge, lasting impact on business travel and office space real estate.

If business travel does drop, maybe we can get some more consistent ticket pricing that makes sense since a lot of the pricing seems to be based on non business availability.
It was $600 cheaper for me to go MDW->DTW->AMS than it was GRR->DTW->AMS, so I hopped on SW and flew to MDW for $79 and saved some coin.
 
…I think Covid is going to have a huge, lasting impact on business travel and office space real estate.
I tend to lean towards your assessment as well. When we cut our business travel last year, that money went directly to IT investments for a more persistent work from anywhere model. When preparing this year’s budget, those travel cuts stayed in place and they money was invested elsewhere.

We completely changed our operating model; now half our workforce is pure remote and another 40% are primarily remote. Our campuses are ghost towns for those few with an onsite work requirement.

We informed our external consultants that onsite presence was no longer expected and renegotiated those contracts to reflect as such. Those savings are already programmed elsewhere.

I don’t know how drastic the impact will be on business travel in the long term, but I believe it will be larger than expected.
 
Yes but before TSA there was no social media. Now that we have social media it is too easy to mislead, influence and radicalize folks. Now that we have social media we need more security to keep the homegrown threat in check as much as possible.

If you don’t like the wait times just enroll in Clear, get all your biometric data put into a computer system (partially owned by Delta) and rest assured. It isn’t possible for Clear to be hacked and biometric data stollen.
1984…

Needless to say I don’t agree with you but I guess the debate will be delayed until we can visit outside of the forum. I’ll buy the first round.
Cheers.
 
And I disagree with you. I used to fly 25-30 trips per year in my job. I'm not doing that job anymore but the guys that are now figure 2-5 trips per year. My wife was making about the same number of trip as I was. She thinks that next year it will be about 10-15. Businesses have figured out that all that travel which was an absolute necessity isn't really all that necessary.

Things change.

For example, I remember having a SkyTel pager. As soon as I would get off the flight, I'd head for the first bank of payphones to make calls. If you weren't in the front of the plane, sometimes you had to go to the 2nd or 3rd bank of phones before you could find an available phone. Nowadays, you'll see a couple of sad, unused payphones every now and then.

Things change.

I think Covid is going to have a huge, lasting impact on business travel and office space real estate.
I don’t disagree that business travel is changing. I was responding to the comment that airlines are worried about the future of business travel. Yea I think that’s definitely in the front of their minds but they’re not just going to stop expanding. The IATA said travel wouldn’t bounce back to 2019 levels until 2025. Leisure travel is back and I wouldn’t doubt that business travel will be back in a few years
 
And I disagree with you. I used to fly 25-30 trips per year in my job. I'm not doing that job anymore but the guys that are now figure 2-5 trips per year. My wife was making about the same number of trip as I was. She thinks that next year it will be about 10-15. Businesses have figured out that all that travel which was an absolute necessity isn't really all that necessary.

I think what Jordan is getting at is regardless of the level of business travel recovery, the airlines are choosing to be extremely bullish with regards to their growth plans. If that means leaning more on leisure travel or if they're seeing something with future booking who knows, but based on pilot hiring they're going back to pre-pandemic levels of expansion. This isn't just for retirements - my airline is hiring close to double the number of pilots that are retiring through 2022, limited mainly by training bandwidth.

Whether this level of recovery pans out I don't know, but the airlines certainly aren't being cautious about it, which is the assertion that made Jordan post the hiring numbers to begin with.

EDIT: Oops - he beat me to it! :p
 
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Yea it’s not ideal if you’re not flying out of a major hub. If you have the Amex platinum card, they give you Clear for free as a new perk.

Thank you! I hadn't seen that before. Clear isn't worth it to me if I'm paying for it. But free is a different story!
 
Thank you! I hadn't seen that before. Clear isn't worth it to me if I'm paying for it. But free is a different story!
It’s a shame they raised the annual fee. The added perks don’t really warrant the increase in annual fee IMO. If I didn’t travel so much, I definitely would cancel it.
 
Is the large increase in leisure travel going to be permanent, or is it because people have been unable or unwilling to travel since the beginning of 2020 and there is a backlog in demand.
 
Is the large increase in leisure travel going to be permanent, or is it because people have been unable or unwilling to travel since the beginning of 2020 and there is a backlog in demand.

We in the industry have taken to calling it "Revenge Travel". People are so tired of not doing anything, and being told to stay home, they are rebelling. Thats why nearly every event and festival that does happen is seeing record attendance and leisure travel is soaring.
 
We in the industry have taken to calling it "Revenge Travel". People are so tired of not doing anything, and being told to stay home, they are rebelling. Thats why nearly every event and festival that does happen is seeing record attendance and leisure travel is soaring.
Haha, maybe like binging after dieting. I took two trips in 2020, which were nice because of the lack of crowds, so I don't feel deprived. Right now I don't have much desire to get out there with the vacation-starved. I have a trip scheduled for the end of September. Hope the frenzy will have died down by then.
 
If you think TSA delays are bad, look at the delays to get a simple passport these days. Months and months.
 
If you think TSA delays are bad, look at the delays to get a simple passport these days. Months and months.

When did that start? I had to renew in the middle of the shut downs and while it was delayed a little while over normal, it wasn't atrocious. Certainly not months and months. 4 weeks maybe?
 
When did that start? I had to renew in the middle of the shut downs and while it was delayed a little while over normal, it wasn't atrocious. Certainly not months and months. 4 weeks maybe?
I believe it’s about 2-3 months for a passport now. I renewed mine a few years ago in the beginning of November and got it back before Thanksgiving. I didn’t even pay for it to be expedited. I was pleasantly surprised. My wife was going to send hers in for her name change but we’re going away in October and don’t want to risk it.
 
Back in late 2001, the GOP and President Bush were NOT in favor of nationalizing airport security in the form of the TSA. That was pushed by the Democrats and, in the aftermath of 9/11, both sides were willing to compromise to get bills passed. The GOP compromised and accepted the Democrat's proposal and the TSA was born.
 
But every business deserves to have people falling over themselves to come and work for them without paying the going rate? Capitalism works both ways. If you can't pay enough to attract workers, you don't have a business.

People love to say "if you don't like our wages, then you can choose not to work here" and then get mad when they choose not to :D

Yep. If businesses don't offer enough then they shouldn't be surprised when they have challenges getting and retaining people.

I'm regularly irritated by companies that will hire new people at higher salaries, but not give their current employees raises up to that salary range; "we can't give raises that high." o_O :mad: So, then we lose people with excellent skills and lots of domain/company knowledge and replace them with people with potentially excellent skills but less domain knowledge and ZERO knowledge of the company. :confused: Then we pay the new people what we wouldn't pay the "known good" that we had. :mad: I work in IT, so these are not "fry guys" making minimum wage, these are folks making good money.

Unfortunately for many businesses right now is that almost every business suddenly needs a lot of workers. Making it worse is the government is artificially inflating the price of labor by giving away money. The problem would be big all by itself with the sudden surge in demand, the give-away is just exasperating the problem.
 
I’m probably missing something but privatizing *anything* means adding a cost to cover the profit that managers expect. They aren’t exactly selling a product to do this so the result is a less secure environment and the same problem with finding employees willing to work for dirt wages and benefits. I’m just failing to see how privatizing the TSA would solve anything. Same with ATC. Firefighters. Etc. Some form of socialism is necessary for a functioning society. The question is how to make it work better for the citizens utilizing those services.

I believe his statement was irony, as they used to be private.

One thing is a corporation will continually try to improve their product/service, processes and procedures. They will also continually look to reduce the costs in providing the product/service. Otherwise their competitors will "eat their lunch". Government agencies don't have that driver. Due to how budgets are done, they are generally incented to do the opposite; find ways to need more money. Yes, this sometimes brings companies to do things that are not good for employees; from pay to safety. That's where unions and government agencies can help keep things in balance; and they can carried away with things, just like companies can.

It's a balancing act we are all involved with.
 
Back in late 2001, the GOP and President Bush were NOT in favor of nationalizing airport security in the form of the TSA. That was pushed by the Democrats and, in the aftermath of 9/11, both sides were willing to compromise to get bills passed. The GOP compromised and accepted the Democrat's proposal and the TSA was born.
I remember that well. I believe the chant was "You can't professionalize unless you federalize."

What a bunch of idiots.
 
One quote I've heard before, "Just be glad we don't get all the government we are paying for."
 
Back in late 2001, the GOP and President Bush were NOT in favor of nationalizing airport security in the form of the TSA. That was pushed by the Democrats and, in the aftermath of 9/11, both sides were willing to compromise to get bills passed. The GOP compromised and accepted the Democrat's proposal and the TSA was born.

“We must unionize to professionalize.”
 
And how, exactly, does the TSA provide “more security”?
- A requirement that all checked baggage be screened by explosive detection devices by December 31, 2002
-More robust screening equipment for passengers.
When you see how some passengers treat flight crews you know they would treat security screeners the same way even more if they were not wearing a federal uniform.

Back in late 2001, the GOP and President Bush were NOT in favor of nationalizing airport security in the form of the TSA. That was pushed by the Democrats and, in the aftermath of 9/11, both sides were willing to compromise to get bills passed. The GOP compromised and accepted the Democrat's proposal and the TSA was born.
That's the GQP way, anything done should create a profit for a business. All of Congress was R controlled at the time.

My opinion is that it was an opportunity to shift liability for security lapses and the costs of equipment from airlines, airports or security companies and onto the Feds. I'd much rather have someone that has a sense of duty rather than a profit motive in that position.
 
Thank you! I hadn't seen that before. Clear isn't worth it to me if I'm paying for it. But free is a different story!

Clear is free with United 1K or Delta Diamond Medallion status as well. I'm very happy with it at that price...
 
- A requirement that all checked baggage be screened by explosive detection devices by December 31, 2002
-More robust screening equipment for passengers.
So you’re saying those wouldn’t have happened without the TSA? How do you know this?
When you see how some passengers treat flight crews you know they would treat security screeners the same way even more if they were not wearing a federal uniform.
That’s not a security thing…that’s just *******s.
 
I thought Clear let you cut the line, but not the pre-check line. Still regular security. Pre-check doesn’t let you cut the line, but the line is usually short, and security somewhat simple.
If you have both, than you are in good shape.

I could be wrong on that, as I have neither Clear, nor pre-check.
 
The TSA, if only 25% effective, is better than nothing. The 25% also acts as a deterrent.

The alternatives of private security would be even more invasive imo.
 
When did that start? I had to renew in the middle of the shut downs and while it was delayed a little while over normal, it wasn't atrocious. Certainly not months and months. 4 weeks maybe?
The Passport office is quoting 18 weeks for routine processing, and 12 weeks for expedited.

It's gotten worse since the first of the year. So ugly that At least one group is suggesting that you renew at least 6 months in advance and people are missing vacations.

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/how-apply/processing-times.html
 
I thought Clear let you cut the line, but not the pre-check line. Still regular security. Pre-check doesn’t let you cut the line, but the line is usually short, and security somewhat simple.
If you have both, than you are in good shape.

I could be wrong on that, as I have neither Clear, nor pre-check.
In ATL, Clear put you at the head of the pre-check line. So quick through and shoes, belt stayed on. 90% of the time, pre-check was all you needed, but at a few airports, Clear can help. As someone else said, if you really need it, you likely get it free anyways (Delta Diamond in my case)
 
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