Broke Guy Needs GPS Upgrade Advice

Dale Eicher

Dale Eicher

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Jul 2, 2021
Messages
13
Location
Alaska
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Display name:
Royalion
So I just bought a C180 that still has most of the original instruments. It does have a Garmin 250XL, and I am considering upgrading to a 355. How major of a deal is that to swap out? Do they have the same hookups? Just trying to figure out if my A&P can do a quick swap or if I'll have to plan on shelling out some dough for the labor side?
 
It will need to be rewired, and the 355 is much deeper, so you may run into cl stance problems, though not likely.
 
A cheaper and easier option would be to install a GPS175 and keep the 250xl for Com. You’ll need a new indicator that has a glideslope needle either way.
 
Jesse Saint said:
A cheaper and easier option would be to install a GPS175 and keep the 250xl for Com. You’ll need a new indicator that has a glideslope needle either way.
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That would be an option, except the 250 com doesn't seem to be working. Should have someone take a look at it I guess.
 
This is not a plug in installation. It will require major panel work and rewiring. Find a reputable avionics shop in your area and consult with them. Before doing that it would be worthwhile and educational to post a picture of the panel here so that we can see what you’ve got. Post your goal, IFR or VFR and your budget. There is a lot oF knowledge and experience on this forum to offer information and assistance and there’s no shortage of people here who enjoy spending other people’s money.

I love 180’s. If they weren’t so blasted expensive I would consider combining my Mooney and my 140 into one plane being a 180.
 
MBDiagMan said:
This is not a plug in installation. It will require major panel work and rewiring. Find a reputable avionics shop in your area and consult with them. Before doing that it would be worthwhile and educational to post a picture of the panel here so that we can see what you’ve got. Post your goal, IFR or VFR and your budget. There is a lot oF knowledge and experience on this forum to offer information and assistance and there’s no shortage of people here who enjoy spending other people’s money.

I love 180’s. If they weren’t so blasted expensive I would consider combining my Mooney and my 140 into one plane being a 180.
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Here's a photo of the current panel. I'm wavering between spending the minimum possible and just getting a better gps, or going all out with a full panel rework so I'm IFR capable. Local shop quoted $56k for a gtn650, two 275s, gfc 500 autopilot with yaw axis, and an edm930. Really want to go that route but not sure I want to spend that much right now...
 

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Very helpful!

I want to study this a little, show you pictures of my panels and I’m sure others will have differing ideas and opinions. Given that the panel has been modified so much, IMHO you need to use a shop that not only installs avionics but can build nice panels from scratch and clean it all up. with the right shop You have enough budget to do it right and clean it up nicely.

Looks like you have a really neat plane. Cessna taildraggers rock!
 
MBDiagMan said:
Very helpful!

I want to study this a little, show you pictures of my panels and I’m sure others will have differing ideas and opinions. Given that the panel has been modified so much, IMHO you need to use a shop that not only installs avionics but can build nice panels from scratch and clean it all up. with the right shop You have enough budget to do it right and clean it up nicely.

Looks like you have a really neat plane. Cessna taildraggers rock!
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Thanks, I love the plane. Now if it would just quit breaking on me that would be cool, lol. Yeah that quote included a new custom built panel. Just hard to shell out that much money when I just spent all the money on purchasing it... But I guess I should, otherwise I'll have to rent again when I start on instrument and that just defeats the purpose of having your own plane.
 
Garmin Pilot on an iDevice suits me fine in my 180.0A5223E8-9541-4C14-A24F-6CE6E02C1BB3.jpeg Mine’s velcroed over the top of my Garmin Aera. The mini does everything I need and more.
 
Don't forget that you'll also (probably) need a new antenna and cable to it. The 250XL isn't WAAS. Seems the antenna may be in the kit buy, but re-running that coax will be some labor.
 
These days, with portable backups for emergencies (a Yaesu or iCOM for com/nav, and your tablet or phone for rnav) you're fine with just one primary panel-mounted option each for com, nav, and rnav. Do you have another navcom, like a 155 or a 170B?
 
Depends where you fly, I guess. I’ve never needed a 2nd radio and have landed in busy controlled airspace with no radio. Not a big deal. My new location doesn’t require owning a radio. I always like a nav backup plan, though. I was scud running once when my old 296 went black. I didn’t like that. With an iPhone in pocket I always have a backup, and I can call tower if a radio fails.
 
Stewartb said:
Depends where you fly, I guess. I’ve never needed a 2nd radio and have landed in busy controlled airspace with no radio. Not a big deal. My new location doesn’t require owning a radio. I always like a nav backup plan, though. I was scud running once when my old 296 went black. I didn’t like that. With an iPhone in pocket I always have a backup, and I can call tower if a radio fails.
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Yeah, that's true. I carry an ipad and iphone with foreflight and sentry for nav backup, plus I keep a PJ2 in my bag... Maybe I'm over complicating this if I stay vfr.
 
Dale Eicher said:
Just hard to shell out that much money when I just spent all the money on purchasing it...
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Is it a forever plane? Financially, if you did it all right now, could you handle a catastrophic motor event?

Have you considered potentially doing a two-step to get the forever panel/capability?
 
TCABM said:
Is it a forever plane? Financially, if you did it all right now, could you handle a catastrophic motor event?

Have you considered potentially doing a two-step to get the forever panel/capability?
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Could I scrape the money together. Probably. Would I want to? No. It's precisely the biggest thing holding me back from doing the full upgrade. I have no intentions of selling it, but idk, depends on how I like it long term. What would a two step process look like?
 
By the way, Dale, welcome to the Skywagon family. I hope you have a long and happy relationship with your plane!
 
?
 

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Dale Eicher said:
So I just bought a C180...
...
Now if it would just quit breaking on me...
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I'd delay discretionary avionics upgrades if you can... ask me how I know.

Dale Eicher said:
Yeah, that's true. I carry an ipad and iphone with foreflight and sentry for nav backup, plus I keep a PJ2 in my bag... Maybe I'm over complicating this if I stay vfr.
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:yeahthat:

Oh, and welcome to PoA!
 
Updated with details,,,

Scale back with almost the same functionality.
1 GI 275 as the HSI or AI depending what you do with the G5: $3000 to $4300 msrp depending if HSI or MFD
1 G5 as the AI or HSI: $2500 to $3200
GNC 355 gps & com retails under $7000

worst case total not counting labor...$14,5000 msrp which will probably come in closer to $13k at the dealer.
throw in the antennas, GDL and other stuff to make it work, call it $20k then another $8 to $10k for labor. Nowhere near $50k+

forget the EDM for now
Do you really need the autopilot at this time?
Do you have ADSB now or will you need it? Go for a wingtip or tail ADSB if so. Less than $2000, no need for avionics install, just the A&P signoff

This should only hit your checkbook for about $22-$28k

Down the road the G5 will be needed by the GFC500, leaving the GI 275 to do everything else.

Yes, this is good for IFR
 
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murphey said:
Scale back with almost the same functionality.
1GI275
1G5
GNC 355 gps & com
forget the EDM for now
Do you really need the autopilot at this time?
Do you have ADSB now or will you need it? Go for a wingtip or tail ADSB if so.

This should only hit your checkbook for about $20-25K

Down the road the G5 will be needed by the GFC500, leaving the GI 275 to do everything else.
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Excuse my ignorance, but would that be IFR capable at that point? Or would I still be stuck in VFR?
 
Here's my panel which is barely IFR but was "reasonably" priced. Also on a 180.
2x GI275's
Aera 660
JPI730
GMA342
GNC255
GTR225
GTX327 + GDL82 + GDL50 (To be replaced by GTX345)
PXL_20210320_185119911.jpg
 
I like Murphy’s idea, but a 375 would also bring ADS-B to the party. Keep the NAV COM for. Backup. With a CDI or HSI you would have a capable IFR arrangement.

Not to be argumentative and I fully realize the trend to move away fro steam gauges, but a good six pack arrangement on the left and a 375 and CDI with the existing NAVCOM for backup would make a usable IFR panel. By planning ahead and cleaning it up nicely, you could pave the way for G5’s or 275’s and an autopilot later. A JPI 930 would allow a serious cleanup on the right side.
 
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Sorry for the bad picture. Maybe I can find a better one. If you approach the panel in three sections you can do it in stages. By building a center stack with top to bottom, audio panel, navigator, backup NAVCOM and transponder, better yet 375, that includes the transponder, then build a blank panel for the right with not much more than the 930, you really clean it up. Flying with all your engine instruments on the 930 screen might not seem natural, but believe me it works great and declutters that whole area with more engine and flight data than you could ever put together with individual instruments.

Then rebuild the left side with a six pack or with G5 type instruments. There are vendors that can cut the panel blanks with CNC type machines from an auto cad drawing for very reasonable cost.

Hope this is helpful in some way.
 
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Here’s my extremely basic IFR panel in my sweet little 140. It is non WAAS and no ADS-B panel in, but it’s legal filing /G. You don’t have to write a big check to fly IFR.

I got the Stratus ESG for a bargain basement price from a friend who was upgrading his panel and needed a 345 instead. I got the 420 from a POA member at a very good price and traded an engine case for the installation. Used a $300 eBay King CDI for the indicator. The NAV1 LOC/GLIDESLOPE was already in the plane. Makes a wonderful little instrument trainer.
 
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180 panels aren’t too tough and you don’t have to farm out the panel cutting if you’re handy with tools. What year is this 180? That makes a difference.
 

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Great pictures Stewart! It doesn’t look like his is the same model, but you are really showing him some great options.
 
Does it have the center stack? My book is a wee bit sketchy on details other than that model being the transition year to the 185 fuselage.

Join the Skywagon page on Facebook and you’ll see some awesome panel upgrade pics in a fairly wide price range. I did my 180 panel 11 years ago and since then my aviation budget went to my exp Cub. I suspect some of the panel-autopilot installs being shown cost as much as adding another airplane! It’s hard not to get sucked into that rabbit hole.
 
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Stewartb said:
Does it have the center stack? My book is a wee bit sketchy on details other than that model being the transition year to the 185 fuselage.
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No, it doesn't, unfortunately. There's a photo of it further up this thread. ☝
 
Dale Eicher said:
Thanks, I love the plane. Now if it would just quit breaking on me that would be cool, lol.
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I'm 3.5 years in and still working on that part :).

If you're handy and want to save a few bucks, check out approach fast stack. You install the avionics yourself and just plug them into a central hub which does all the challenging wiring for you. I wish I knew about this option when I was working on my panel.
http://www.approachfaststack.com/index.html
 
It would be worthwhile to refabricate the panel and build a center stack. IMHO that is.
 
Dale Eicher said:
…What would a two step process look like?
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Post 24 pretty much nailed it. The choice becomes Garmin or Dynon ecosystem if autopilot is a desire. Right now, the GFC500 is approved for the 180, Dynon’s is not.

Knowing that, work backwards on actual avionics (com1/nav1, com2/nav2, transponder w/ADSB if you don’t already have that) and audio panel. For Com2/Nav2, I like something like the SL30 so that you have an independent, redundant glideslope/localizer source from the GPS in Com1/Nav1.

Step 2 would be engine monitoring, autopilot, and any primary gauges you want to replace with glass and the autopilot.

All that was just a thought process to start a discussion with a good avionics shop on how to do the install efficiently, because a lot of wiring is going to need to be done and that’s tedious, which turns into dollars spent quickly. My goal in that context would be to limit the amount of re-wiring that would need to be done in phase two of the project.
 
You could do a SkyView system with 10” screen, engine monitor, ads-b in, GPS175, and Dynon Com radio for $30,618. Add the TruTrak auto pilot for another $8k. Much better features than a couple of 275’s.
 
Oh how I wish TruTrak would have done what they said they were going to do three years ago and gotten appproval for the Mooney.
 
Repair the GPS/COM and fix the KX155 so it does Glideslope/localiser.

Then do lots of flying
 
I fly a '53 180, and I just did a panel upgrade last spring. I am kind of old school, I went with a 430 mounted up top in the center, left enough space for a gfc500, a JPI730 below that. I have a gtr225, narco 150, and audio panel below the big panel. I kept all the required engine instruments. Personally I am not a big fan of all glass, I have seen a few times when people have all glass and lose the alternator and are stuck. I can still fly my plane 100% legal and safe without the alternator or battery.
I didn't look at all the new stuff like the 375, but a friend was talking about upgrading his panel and I did some looking. I still think I made the right decision. My plane is IFR capable, though I haven't used it IFR, and all the parts were under $14k. That was a factory gone through 430w, two g5's, wiring harness, piece of aluminum for new panel, paint on new panel, breakers etc...
The GTR225 is an excellent radio, listen on two frequencies. I am not concerned about ADS-B in, so the working narco transponder is fine for me, if it craps out I can buy a replacement for cheap.

I have a 250xl that works 100% if you are interested I removed it for this panel upgrade.
 
Wagondriver said:
I fly a '53 180, and I just did a panel upgrade last spring. I am kind of old school, I went with a 430 mounted up top in the center, left enough space for a gfc500, a JPI730 below that. I have a gtr225, narco 150, and audio panel below the big panel. I kept all the required engine instruments. Personally I am not a big fan of all glass, I have seen a few times when people have all glass and lose the alternator and are stuck. I can still fly my plane 100% legal and safe without the alternator or battery.
I didn't look at all the new stuff like the 375, but a friend was talking about upgrading his panel and I did some looking. I still think I made the right decision. My plane is IFR capable, though I haven't used it IFR, and all the parts were under $14k. That was a factory gone through 430w, two g5's, wiring harness, piece of aluminum for new panel, paint on new panel, breakers etc...
The GTR225 is an excellent radio, listen on two frequencies. I am not concerned about ADS-B in, so the working narco transponder is fine for me, if it craps out I can buy a replacement for cheap.

I have a 250xl that works 100% if you are interested I removed it for this panel upgrade.
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I think the 275s have a 4 hour back up battery, but yeah, i get your point. Would you have a photo of your new setup?
 
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