Is it Just Me? A Controller Question. Sorry, lengthy.

Arnold

Arnold

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Arnold
I don't use VFR ATC services often, but when I do . . .

Two recent tower encounters that have me wondering: Why do tower controllers seem to make their own lives harder?

Set up: I'm flying a 1946 Luscombe 8A - No electrics - no x-ponder. Handheld Radio with external antenna. Both good VFR conditions.

1) Reading PA. VFR inbound. Yesterday.
2) Leesburg Lynchburg, VA. VFR inbound. Last month.

My initial call to Reading. Reading tower, Luscombe N1234, 10 SE Inbound for Touch and Go. Negative Transponder. With Mike. Leesburg Lynchburg was similar except just landing.

Leesburg Lynchburg issued me a code. I politely repeated my no x-ponder info. Reading told me to contact approach. I repeated my no x-ponder info and declined radar services. When about 8 out I get a 30 degree turn for radar identification. I complied but - huh? I'm not even in their airspace yet.

Leesburg Lynchburg: They had 4 training aircraft in the pattern. VFR good vis. Controller induced chaos.

Old Days:

Controller: Training 1 - your traffic is a company aircraft at your 12 o'clock and 1 mile report traffic in sight. Training 1: Traffic insight. Controller: Follow that traffic he's touch and go - cleared the option (or whatever).

Last Month: Training 1 - you're following company aircraft at 12 o'clock and 1 mile I'll call your base.

After telling this to every aircraft the controller was completely saturated. He had taken responsibility for managing the pattern for 4 training aircraft + I'm inbound. A couple of departures and the situation was nearly hopeless.

Yesterday: I'm apparently radar identified (never heard those words) and I'm given the left down wind to 18. So far so good. Archer calls in. I'm asked my speed, I say 90 kts. Archer's given a base entry (he was further out than I) and cleared to land. I don't care about the marginally faster traffic given priority from further out so I don't complain, I can always make a speed adjustment. A few minutes later a clearly more experienced voice. Archer you are number 2 now to follow "unknown type" on downwind. Continue on base I'll call your turn to final. Archer acknowledges and is clearly perturbed. He ends up on a very extended final. I'm on downwind post T & G before he touches down.

In the next hour the several controllers make sure they have extraordinary spacing between aircraft. Whenever they are working two or more aircraft people are being told to extend upwind or downwind and the controller will call the next turn. The pattern is extended to several miles in every direction.

The one bright spot was the apparently experienced controller who actually asked me for a short approach so he had space for an inbound Gulfstream.

So:

Is it me or are VFR tower controllers completely dependent on radar (Brite?) for SA?
And why do they want to call every turn in the pattern? It seems like they are making way too much work for themselves. Whatever happened to controlling the sequence and allowing the pilots to judge the separation?

Also, I ask for T&G and they give me the option. Is this policy now? I don't really care, but I'm wondering why?

Sort of humorous:

Lastly, the winds were 090 v 140 at 10 g 17 (which is why I flew 30 minutes to RDG - I wanted some wind) and they clear me for the option on downwind and give me the winds. After one of my extended downwind legs I decide to follow the PAPI down to the runway (I'm usually well above the PAPI glidepath) and so I'm over the fence on the PAPI. I report -10Kt wind shear while on the PAPI. The controller asks "what's on the PAPI?" I was a little more specific in my reply. I just thought that was a bit humorous. Also humorous was the Mooney that came in, was given the wind shear info, and after clearing the runway reported the winds as "squirrely."

Mission Accomplished:

On a positive note I've gotten my spot landings down to +/- 15 feet from the desired point either three point or wheelie. I'm shooting for +15/-0. Power off. Getting closer.
 
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Sounds like the controllers there use the CTRD (BRITE) as a crutch instead of a situational awareness tool. It’s important to have and it makes sequencing so much easier but in a VFR tower, they shouldn’t be getting so heavy handed to use it as a separation tool.

I flew non transponder into KLZU for a POA fly in a while back and really had no issues with tower. Flew XC to KSHV couple years back with no transponder and had no problems getting sequenced. There are tower controllers who can work traffic efficiently without tech help and others, not so much.

A bit of a rant but one of the reasons my brother retired out of the FAA last year was he was sick and tired of working with controllers who simply couldn’t do the job efficiently. Just not pleased at all with the quality of people his facility was getting out of OK City. Strangely enough, about a month after he retired I met a former controller at a gas station in my town who just retired out of KATL tower. It was like listening to my brother gripe about work. :DStated he “got tired of baby sitting kids who don’t know how to do their jobs.” Both retired at 50 vs sticking it out to the mandatory 56. I know, sounds like “back in my day” but I think there’s some truth to the fact that we’re not getting the same quality of controllers these days as in past. Maybe the whole diversity program the FAA implemented years ago instead of the tried and true preference to CTI grads / military veterans? I don’t know maybe we can blame it on the millennials. :D
 
Velocity173 said:
Sounds like the controllers there use the CTRD (BRITE) as a crutch instead of a situational awareness tool. It’s important to have and it makes sequencing so much easier but in a VFR tower, they shouldn’t be getting so heavy handed to use it as a separation tool.

I flew non transponder into KLZU for a POA fly in a while back and really had no issues with tower. Flew XC to KSHV couple years back with no transponder and had no problems getting sequenced. There are tower controllers who can work traffic efficiently without tech help and others, not so much.

A bit of a rant but one of the reasons my brother retired out of the FAA last year was he was sick and tired of working with controllers who simply couldn’t do the job efficiently. Just not pleased at all with the quality of people his facility was getting out of OK City. Strangely enough, about a month after he retired I met a former controller at a gas station in my town who just retired out of KATL tower. It was like listening to my brother gripe about work. :DStated he “got tired of baby sitting kids who don’t know how to do their jobs.” Both retired at 50 vs sticking it out to the mandatory 56. I know, sounds like “back in my day” but I think there’s some truth to the fact that we’re not getting the same quality of controllers these days as in past. Maybe the whole diversity program the FAA implemented years ago instead of the tried and true preference to CTI grads / military veterans? I don’t know maybe we can blame it on the millennials. :D
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That is certainly my impression. I wonder how much is the quality of recruits and how much is the quality of OKC instructors?
 
Velocity173 said:
Sounds like the controllers there use the CTRD (BRITE) as a crutch instead of a situational awareness tool. It’s important to have and it makes sequencing so much easier but in a VFR tower, they shouldn’t be getting so heavy handed to use it as a separation tool.

I flew non transponder into KLZU for a POA fly in a while back and really had no issues with tower. Flew XC to KSHV couple years back with no transponder and had no problems getting sequenced. There are tower controllers who can work traffic efficiently without tech help and others, not so much.

A bit of a rant but one of the reasons my brother retired out of the FAA last year was he was sick and tired of working with controllers who simply couldn’t do the job efficiently. Just not pleased at all with the quality of people his facility was getting out of OK City. Strangely enough, about a month after he retired I met a former controller at a gas station in my town who just retired out of KATL tower. It was like listening to my brother gripe about work. :DStated he “got tired of baby sitting kids who don’t know how to do their jobs.” Both retired at 50 vs sticking it out to the mandatory 56. I know, sounds like “back in my day” but I think there’s some truth to the fact that we’re not getting the same quality of controllers these days as in past. Maybe the whole diversity program the FAA implemented years ago instead of the tried and true preference to CTI grads / military veterans? I don’t know maybe we can blame it on the millennials. :D
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A lot of that spans generations. When I was an FAA Tower controller 78-81 some of that syndrome existed. I’d tell a plane his sequence and say leave me room for a departure. There were a couple guys there that would throw hissy fits over that. They’d say I wasn’t ‘controlling the pattern.’ I was letting the pilots run it. They’d do the extend, I’ll call your base thing all the time. Sometimes yeah, there’s a valid reason, but not routinely, all the time, just for the sake of showing the world who was in charge.
Fast forward a couple generations. I’ve run across both ‘philosophies’ when flying.
 
Arnold said:
That is certainly my impression. I wonder how much is the quality of recruits and how much is the quality of OKC instructors?
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Well my bro blames it on a culture of mediocrity that he’s witnessed in recent years. Not just OK City but at a facility management level. Basically the kindler gentler FAA of acceptance of human error. He’s seen trainees getting signed off that never should have been signed off. Seeing the abuse of the ATSAP (ASRS for controllers) process. Increasing numbers of Operational Errors / Deviations. His retirement letter to management basically detailed how when he first started, attention to detail and dedication to being the best controller he could be was more the norm. Now, it’s more of an exception.

Friend of mine who used to work as a sup ATL TRACON said the same. I took a tour down there years ago and he told me he made close to $180K a year but it wasn’t worth it. He was telling me about all the issues he had with the new controllers. He went on to being a QA guy who investigates controller errors and told me he sees poor controlling all the time. “There’s really no accountability for poor performance.”

To be honest though I’ve seen the same poor performance in other areas of aviation. All areas of employment for that matter. Standards go out the window when there’s a quota to fill.
 
Lindberg said:
In case you want to stop or wind up stopping. Who does touch and goes in a taildragger anyway?
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Yes I agree, the option gives me options. However, it also means more spacing for the ship behind, so now the pattern gets bigger.
 
Velocity173 said:
Well my bro blames it on a culture of mediocrity that he’s witnessed in recent years. Not just OK City but at a facility management level. Basically the kindler gentler FAA of acceptance of human error. He’s seen trainees getting signed off that never should have been signed off. Seeing the abuse of the ATSAP (ASRS for controllers) process. Increasing numbers of Operational Errors / Deviations. His retirement letter to management basically detailed how when he first started, attention to detail and dedication to being the best controller he could be was more the norm. Now, it’s more of an exception.

Friend of mine who used to work as a sup ATL TRACON said the same. I took a tour down there years ago and he told me he made close to $180K a year but it wasn’t worth it. He was telling me about all the issues he had with the new controllers. He went on to being a QA guy who investigates controller errors and told me he sees poor controlling all the time. “There’s really no accountability for poor performance.”

To be honest though I’ve seen the same poor performance in other areas of aviation. All areas of employment for that matter. Standards go out the window when there’s a quota to fill.
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Yes. Sigh.
 
Lindberg said:
Who does touch and goes in a taildragger anyway?
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I do.

From Airnav:
Runway 18/36
Dimensions: 5151 x 150 ft.

I was aiming for the beginning of the third runway centerline stripe, so 700' down the runway. That leaves 4400' to (if necessary) slow to taxi speed and reset for take off. The after landing checklist is two (2) items. Carb heat - off, Trim - reset. Even if I got clumsy (I am a klutz) the distance to the tree line off to the left (x-wind direction) is over 2000'. Enough to get straightened out and climbing. I assessed the incident risk as minimal.

I did make the first taxiway the one time I wanted to stop. Google measurement says 850' That time I landed nearer to the approach end of the runway - the top of the runway numbers.

Long taxi stints lead to lead fouling. These small Continental Engines were made for 80/87 fuel. IIRC - 100LL has 4 times the lead of the 80/87 fuel the engine was designed to use.

The rebuilt engine is great! I'm getting 10 mph more in cruise and climbing 500 fpm v. 300 fpm on ISA + 10 days. Some of this is down to better control rigging after the wings were re-attached.

Most of the airports around here, including home drome LOM, don't allow T & G landings. Also I was looking for crosswinds and PTW, which is halfway to RDG, allows T & G, but the wind was basically calm. Also not as much room to make a mistake. I was expecting mistakes and I made some. But all and all a satisfying day.
 
I can't speak to Reading, but Leesburg's "tower" seemed to get flummoxed easily the last time I was there. I didn't know that no transponder ops were allowed in the LMA.
 
My bad, Lynchburg. Just did my annual SFRA training, had Leesburg on the brain.
 
RDG is down the road from ABE, and if anybody loves crazy pattern instructions when there are only a couple in the pattern, and putting you on base so far out you can't even see the runway anymore it's ABE. There is something in the water out there. Possibly leaks from all the pipelines/tank farms. I once got put on a "downwind I'll call your base" for 24 at ABE that they didn't call my base until I was literally in NJ.

That said I don't think I've ever heard of 4 planes in the pattern at once at RDG.
 
Meh.

As a CFI operating out of some fairly heavy-use class D airports out west, I see a mix. The competent controllers give enough information to fly a good pattern and deconflict properly, and will step in only when they need to. The less competent ones (which seem to almost all be new) try to fly your airplane for you.

But my observation, FWIW: the new ones evolve pretty quickly to competence. You can recognize voices, and actually see the evolution over 6-12 months.

So I'm not as pessimistic. But I am a grumpy old man.....

--Tony
 
Both Lynchburg and Reading are odd places.

Reading has a stealth radar facility. They act like they have a TRSA (or higher) facility when, they don't. Even when the charts used to have a little R symbol near the airport to indicate radar service availability, they didn't have it. They get miffed when VFRs don't play the approach control game, though there's no indication that such should happen.

Lynchburg has a very busy aviation program at Liberty University. The tower and the associated (Roanoake) approach control are constantly managing VFR traffic in the pattern, student instrument approaches, an odd commuter flight, and students going out to the mysterious "practice" areas. I used to pass through their airspace weekly going between my houses. I'd have sure loved to know where the practice areas are.
 
It does sound like a VFR tower that is consumed with their DBRITE toy. A tower controller cannot use the tower display for to provide radar services unless the controller is radar certified and those services are spelled out in the SOP. The controller can use the display as an extension of his visual sight. He does t need to radar identify you therefore there is no need for a 30 degree turn. He CAN identify you but just can’t provide radar services except as mentioned. So a turn may just be to help him figure out which target you are. Giving you a code when you have said you don’t have a transponder is simply him not paying attention.

tex
 
Dave S. said:
It does sound like a VFR tower that is consumed with their DBRITE toy. A tower controller cannot use the tower display for to provide radar services unless the controller is radar certified and those services are spelled out in the SOP. The controller can use the display as an extension of his visual sight. He does t need to radar identify you therefore there is no need for a 30 degree turn. He CAN identify you but just can’t provide radar services except as mentioned. So a turn may just be to help him figure out which target you are. Giving you a code when you have said you don’t have a transponder is simply him not paying attention.

tex
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Thanks for all responses. I believe the 30 degree turn for radar identification was superfluous but I did not object because it put me on a nice extended downwind. He was working four aircraft, none in the pattern, and no one near me. I'm pretty sure this was just so he could use radar.

I understand that building a traffic picture takes practice. I wonder if depending on the DBRITE slows down controller development. Has FAA studied this?
 
I’m not sure. Trainees are famous for staring at the scope instead of picking up the binoculars and looking out the window. I would give them a couple of warnings and then reach over and turn off the dBRITE.

that would usually get their attention.
Mtex
 
I always carry a local sectional chart but use it mostly to cover the instrument panel. Same result - must look out the window.
 
Dave S. said:
I’m not sure. Trainees are famous for staring at the scope instead of picking up the binoculars and looking out the window. I would give them a couple of warnings and then reach over and turn off the dBRITE.

that would usually get their attention.
Mtex
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We have three STARS monitors in my tower; one in local, one in front of flight data and one for the supervisor. We have a trainee now (prior rated controller from another facility..how he got rated there is a mystery) that stares at the scope like he's watching tv. I got annoyed at this and asked my coordinator to turn down the scope so he couldn't see it. Legally, we're not allowed to do this since we are a limited IFR tower, meaning we can radar identify targets and issue suggested vectors and the scope has to be available at all times. But I watched this trainee simply look at the flight data scope out of the corner of his eye. He cannot remember call signs, type aircraft or what their intentions are without it being spelled out for him on the data tag. I hope this guy washes out. This may seem harsh but I'm a firm believer that not everyone who passes the basics at the school house is cut out for this job. I'm also looking from a watch supervisor standpoint and my "take a crap with confidence" metric. Translated, it simply means that if this guy gets rated and we are working together as we go down to two controllers during non busy periods, can he be trusted to hold the fort if I have to go downstairs for an extended bathroom visit?

The quality of controllers has gone down; that's a fact. It isn't because they are stupid, its because the standards for passing basic ATC school have been lowered to the point of almost everyone passes. Regard for the personal feelings of a student is an issue that wasn't around when I went through school. I started out with 25 in my class and only 7 of us graduated on time. The others were washed back or washed out. When I got to my first facility, there were 6 of us in training at the same time. I got rated in 6 months and the other 5 got rated within 8 months. Very few washed out due to the fact that they were weeded out in tech school. Now with everyone getting a participation ribbon, it is taking a year and a half to two years for trainees to get rated and we have to exhaust every opportunity for them to succeed prior to washing them out which means a trainer change, crew changes, extra time allotted, etc. I used to get to know new trainees; where they're from, their family, etc. Now I don't, because over the years, I've seen so many wash out that it just isn't worth it to know anything about them until they show promise and get their rating. That may seem harsh but I've been at this for 28 years and it just isn't worth my time anymore.
 
Timbeck2 said:
We have three STARS monitors in my tower; one in local, one in front of flight data and one for the supervisor. We have a trainee now (prior rated controller from another facility..how he got rated there is a mystery) that stares at the scope like he's watching tv. I got annoyed at this and asked my coordinator to turn down the scope so he couldn't see it. Legally, we're not allowed to do this since we are a limited IFR tower, meaning we can radar identify targets and issue suggested vectors and the scope has to be available at all times. But I watched this trainee simply look at the flight data scope out of the corner of his eye. He cannot remember call signs, type aircraft or what their intentions are without it being spelled out for him on the data tag. I hope this guy washes out. This may seem harsh but I'm a firm believer that not everyone who passes the basics at the school house is cut out for this job. I'm also looking from a watch supervisor standpoint and my "take a crap with confidence" metric. Translated, it simply means that if this guy gets rated and we are working together as we go down to two controllers during non busy periods, can he be trusted to hold the fort if I have to go downstairs for an extended bathroom visit?

The quality of controllers has gone down; that's a fact. It isn't because they are stupid, its because the standards for passing basic ATC school have been lowered to the point of almost everyone passes. Regard for the personal feelings of a student is an issue that wasn't around when I went through school. I started out with 25 in my class and only 7 of us graduated on time. The others were washed back or washed out. When I got to my first facility, there were 6 of us in training at the same time. I got rated in 6 months and the other 5 got rated within 8 months. Very few washed out due to the fact that they were weeded out in tech school. Now with everyone getting a participation ribbon, it is taking a year and a half to two years for trainees to get rated and we have to exhaust every opportunity for them to succeed prior to washing them out which means a trainer change, crew changes, extra time allotted, etc. I used to get to know new trainees; where they're from, their family, etc. Now I don't, because over the years, I've seen so many wash out that it just isn't worth it to know anything about them until they show promise and get their rating. That may seem harsh but I've been at this for 28 years and it just isn't worth my time anymore.
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Yeah when my brother went thru Biloxi (1987) he said it was cutthroat. They’d routinely wash people out. He studied hard and was first in his class. I was middle of the pack back in Memphis but our washout rate at the time was still around 30 %. Different time and place.

Speaking of STARS. I guess it has a radar vector feature. My bro was telling me they get all these new guys and they rely on it heavily for vectors because they’re not able to pull on out their ***. Problem is, it takes a few seconds to get the vector, so when the traffic picks up, they don’t have time to bring that feature up. Now their vectors go to crap because they aren’t able to give one “manually.” Millennials…
 
Velocity173 said:
Speaking of STARS. I guess it has a radar vector feature.
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You mean a compass rose around the edge of the scope like the DBright? No, the STARS scope is square or rather rectangular with no compass rose. Otherwise I don't know what a radar vector feature refers to. We do it the old fashioned way which is picture a compass rose around the aircraft and pick a radial that we want it to fly. You should see some of these trainees and even some of the rated people, give traffic calls, especially the part where they need to give the "o'clock" position. The contortion of their head and body trying to figure out the correct clock position is comical. If everyone was flying North I guess they'd have an easier time of it. I remember one trainee who washed out after a very lengthy training period. Every traffic call he made was at 12 o'clock.

Edit: I think I know what you're referring to. There are quite a few "aids" that can be used but require a lot of key strokes I no longer want to learn that will give the exact heading, suggested vectors and distance between targets. To me, that takes up a lot of time and local doesn't have access to the keyboard anyway as it is the coordinator's job to do all that. Most of it is gee whiz info that isn't really necessary.
 
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Todd82 said:
RDG is down the road from ABE, and if anybody loves crazy pattern instructions when there are only a couple in the pattern, and putting you on base so far out you can't even see the runway anymore it's ABE. There is something in the water out there. Possibly leaks from all the pipelines/tank farms. I once got put on a "downwind I'll call your base" for 24 at ABE that they didn't call my base until I was literally in NJ.

That said I don't think I've ever heard of 4 planes in the pattern at once at RDG.
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As a CFI who flies in ABE airspace every day, I love the oddball calls we get from ABE sometimes. It makes for fantastic training tools for new pilots just getting used to ATC. I have had the downwind extend in to NJ before too...that's always fun. Just last week I was given the "make left 360 on downwind for spacing"....nothing crazy there...but one 360 turned into 5 360's for spacing.....not kidding......5.

About RDG. I am under the impression they do a lot of training out of there, though I don't know how true it is. Two weeks ago with a student, I flew in there and was turned over to the tower 7 miles out. Tower cleared me for the option. I did touch and go and on climb out another controller gets on and says (in a kind of perturbed voice) "N1xxx state intentions", I said closed traffic. He said "next time you need to tell us if you arent planning on landing, we predicate all of our traffic on you landing". I politely got on and said "Roger that, N1xxx was cleared for the option Runway 31." He didn't say anything else about it. I had to come home and double-check LiveATC to make sure I didn't screw up my clearance....I didn't.
 
Why in the name of Odin fly a Luscombe to big airports with control towers? That part of the country has lots of little grass strips for which a Luscombe is the weapon of choice.
 
steingar said:
Why in the name of Odin fly a Luscombe to big airports with control towers? That part of the country has lots of little grass strips for which a Luscombe is the weapon of choice.
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I was looking for a strong crosswind with a runway wide enough to accommodate ham fisted flying.
 
Local class D tower told a friend that he wasn't allowed to do pattern work without a transponder, because they couldn't "see" him. I told him to call tower on the phone and ask the controller to list the FAR that says a transponder is needed in D.
 
Wagondriver said:
Local class D tower told a friend that he wasn't allowed to do pattern work without a transponder, because they couldn't "see" him. I told him to call tower on the phone and ask the controller to list the FAR that says a transponder is needed in D.
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But the lack of transponder can be a valid excuse for them to deny pattern work. Approval / disapproval for closed traffic is completely up to the tower controller. A weak excuse but still within their scope of authority.
 
Wagondriver said:
Local class D tower told a friend that he wasn't allowed to do pattern work without a transponder, because they couldn't "see" him. I told him to call tower on the phone and ask the controller to list the FAR that says a transponder is needed in D.
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What Tower was that?
 
luvflyin said:
What Tower was that?
Click to expand...

KGJT
That's where his plane is based and he is doing primary training. The plane has been based there for a year and a half before he bought it. Several people learned in that plane at that field.
 
I agree that controller competence and proficiency is in a state of degrading.

cleared for the option is extremely overused. When I clear you for an option I am giving you a choice…making me wait and see. I am not longer a “controller” but an “observer”. The option was never intended for constant use. But instructors are teaching the trainees to use it because they were taught that way and it perpetuates itself so that now that is all that you hear.

as far as the controller calling the turns, he is responsible for the sequence, timing, and separation. Not the pilot. So naturally he would be highly involved. Most will control the pattern to whatever degree he feels is necessary. Most of the time controllers say too much.

for example, an airplane in on Dow wind about to turn base with a second airplane turning downwind from crosswind. Many controllers will issue a sequence like this “Cessna 23 Bravo, number two follow the Cessna turning base”. This completely unnecessary. The controller is required to establish the sequence. In this case the sequence is already naturally established and there is no more sequencing to do. Just extra words.

Tex
 
Yeah, but vocalizing the sequence helps others in the pattern visualize what’s going on. I know it helps me, and I fly and practice out of a busy Class D.

And any pattern work, “cleared for the option” on every single T&G. Usually 4-5 planes in the pattern most days and morning thru early evening.

They train controllers here.
 
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