Night vs IFR

eman1200 said:
I was, shockingly, not being serious with my reply.

if you fly long enough at night wondering where the sun is, it'll eventually dawn on you.
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Will we ever be able to read sarcasm in text? o_O
 
EdFred said:
Going south adds an hour each way to my Central WI destination. "KELSI Anyone?" Going north adds even more.
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I've flown over KELSI quite often. And if IFR, there is no shortcut...I've asked. I was once 5 miles short of KELSI and was hoping to cut the corner to miss a small buildup, negative.
 
On the rare occasion I fly at night, I do enjoy it: I'm not baking in the cockpit, smooth air, way less traffic...
 
I love flying at night. Night over water or mountains hasn't ever bothered me. I also don't mind IMC and my minimums are the published mins. About 1600 TT, 16% night and about 14% actual IMC. But, there is nothing wrong with being conservative. Just don't let your higher personal mins justify a lack of proficiency. Just as easy to lose control in IMC at 800 AGL as it is at 200 AGL.
 
Zeldman said:
Then I moved to civilization where it was easier to get night time. I Loved flying at night. The air is usually smoother and cooler. The radios are usually a whole lot less congested. Here in the SW visibility is usually 99+, so airports are easier to see at night. Black hole illusions are common, just something to get used to.

I guess I should add that after moving to NM that just about all flying day and night was ME.
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About 30 years ago, a buddy of mine was flying from Lake Havasu City back to Albuquerque VFR on a no moon night in a 182, and somewhere between Gallup and Grants the whirlyround thingy stopped dead.

I can't remember his altitude above terrain when it quit, but he said the ground wasn't too far below when he coaxed the engine back to life after a long few minutes. It was a fuel starvation deal but I don't recall the specifics.

After that happened, he developed an aversion to night flying. :D
 
Without reading all of the responses, don’t we always mitigate potentially dangerous situations? I mean, we fly around thunderstorms as they may be “not good”. We don’t say “well if it’s my time to go…”. We practice many safety precautions in the same manner.

Everyone has their own risk tolerance, but avoiding the obvious, well..??
Flying water at night is one persons tolerance, but I’m betting they do have a tolerance. I’m guessing they won’t fly through a major cell and say “if it’s my time I’m ready”.

We have one poster here that thinks he’s the King’s ass. No arguing with him. He said at one point he soloed after one hour.
 
I'm in the "not comfortable at night" camp, but then I haven't owned Plane with lights since I got my certificate 45 years ago. That said, I'm getting ready to put lights on my Hatz... not because I intend to fly at night, but just in case I arrive a bit late. Maybe I'll spend some time in the pattern on a nice full moon night, that could be fun.

Though there's a YouTube video or somebody doing the NYC VFR corridor at night, all the way up to the new Tappan Zee bridge... spectacular.
 
3393RP said:
About 30 years ago, a buddy of mine was flying from Lake Havasu City back to Albuquerque VFR on a no moon night in a 182, and somewhere between Gallup and Grants the whirlyround thingy stopped dead.
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There are some stretches along that route at night that are indeed darker than the inside of a cow.
 
3393RP said:
About 30 years ago, a buddy of mine was flying from Lake Havasu City back to Albuquerque VFR on a no moon night in a 182, and somewhere between Gallup and Grants the whirlyround thingy stopped dead.

I can't remember his altitude above terrain when it quit, but he said the ground wasn't too far below when he coaxed the engine back to life after a long few minutes. It was a fuel starvation deal but I don't recall the specifics.

After that happened, he developed an aversion to night flying. :D
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I know that part of New Mexico quite well. When I first started flying there, my instructor showed me how you can see things even on a moonless night. We turn down all the cockpit lights and waited for several minutes. The desert terrain slowly came into view. Because the skies are always clear there, you get enough star light to see the ground. The interior lights need to be off, otherwise you won't get the full dark adaptation.
 
When I was a renter, about 33% of my total time was at night. I've always been comfortable flying at night and enjoyed the calmer air and less crowded airspace. About 3 years ago I got my IR and bought a plane. Since then, I fly mostly during the day. The change was mainly due to having a plane available. I still love flying at night and I make sure I stay night current. I make sure the plane is well maintained and I don't consider night flying to be riskier than day.
 
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sarangan said:
I know that part of New Mexico quite well. When I first started flying there, my instructor showed me how you can see things even on a moonless night. We turn down all the cockpit lights and waited for several minutes. The desert terrain slowly came into view. Because the skies are always clear there, you get enough star light to see the ground. The interior lights need to be off, otherwise you won't get the full dark adaptation.
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I do the opposite. At night over the desert, I am not much interested in what is outside the cockpit. If I lose control it is more likely I was confusing some stars for ground lights, or some ground lights for stars. I keep the lights comfortable. I consider it instrument conditions. Climbing out of Scottsdale on a moonless night. Nothing to see out there that is useful.
 
Do I have enough training and capability at this time to fly at night? Yes

As a 60 year old, night vision as good as it was 40 years ago? No.

Am I more at ease in daylight? Yes

Do I fly at night more than a few times a year? No
 
No, your engine doesn’t know the difference between night and day but your eyes know the difference in finding a suitable landing site. It’s only common sense that at night with no good ground references or low IFR the risks associated with an engine out are increased. If Sully had dual engine failure in darkness or IMC, there might not have been a Miracle on the Hudson.

This guy was a local doctor that most of my coworkers knew. Real nice guy. Experienced pilot and a former F-15 guy. He and his family might be alive today if his engine failure occurred during VMC. Trying to find a landing site in these conditions would be similar to night. You might not see something suitable til it’s too late. I don’t put blame on him for taking a flight like this with his family in a SE piston airplane but I also won’t criticize those that look at this as outside their comfort zone. Everyone has their own risk thresholds.

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/177393
 
I know I'm conservative, but I only fly at night if it is a clear night with a full-ish moon and I am within gliding distance to an airport.

This is one instance where a BRS would be really nice to have as an emergency backup.
 
Rockymountain said:
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I do the opposite. At night over the desert, I am not much interested in what is outside the cockpit. If I lose control it is more likely I was confusing some stars for ground lights, or some ground lights for stars. I keep the lights comfortable. I consider it instrument conditions. Climbing out of Scottsdale on a moonless night. Nothing to see out there that is useful.
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That's a valid point, but we were doing this exercise in the context of where to land in case of a power loss. My instructor's point was that you can see plenty well if you turn off the panel lights and sit for a while.
 
Many have said the engine doesn't know if it's day or night. As a sport pilot I don't fly at night but I can guarantee you that my engine knows when we are over water ... :dunno:
 
sarangan said:
That's a valid point, but we were doing this exercise in the context of where to land in case of a power loss. My instructor's point was that you can see plenty well if you turn off the panel lights and sit for a while.
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But then you also won’t be able to see your fuel gauges, clock, oil gauges, carb temp gauge, tach which is slowly getting lower from carb icing……..
 
tspear said:
I tend to avoid this topic, mostly because root cause is rather complicated and people like to cherry pick.
By far if you look at NTSB reports and night flying, you find that pilots make many more mistakes. Pick your cause why, but pilots ef up a lot more at night.

Then also wonder this. How does the engine of your plane know if it is night, over a city, over a mountain or water?

About 1/3 of my flying is at night. I prefer it generally, but harder now because of work schedule.

Tim

Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk
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The engine doesn’t have any idea but as the PIC I get to decide what level of risk I take and if I don’t fly at night, over mountains, in IMC guess where Ill never have an engine failure…
 
samiamPA said:
I know I'm conservative, but I only fly at night if it is a clear night with a full-ish moon and I am within gliding distance to an airport.

This is one instance where a BRS would be really nice to have as an emergency backup.
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The only time you are within gliding distance of an airport at all times is if you stay in the pattern of an airport. And even that is questionable based on skill level and situation.

I only fly at night to maintain currency (most often with a cfi) or on the occasional late departure. Options suck SEL though and so night ops are not preferable for me.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
The engine doesn’t have any idea but as the PIC I get to decide what level of risk I take and if I don’t fly at night, over mountains, in IMC guess where Ill never have an engine failure…
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Complete engine failure is exceedingly rare. Partial engine failure is only slightly more common.
When you read NTSB reports on accidents at night, it is dominated by stupid pilot tricks. The pilot is the weakest link at night, and as a rule tend to make bad ADM.

This is very understandable when you look at human behavior, we are more tired when the sun sets, we likely have put in a full day already, we are flying with getthereitis....

Tim

Tim

Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk
 
Tarheelpilot said:
The engine doesn’t have any idea but as the PIC I get to decide what level of risk I take and if I don’t fly at night, over mountains, in IMC guess where Ill never have an engine failure…
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Complete engine failure is exceedingly rare. Partial engine failure is only slightly more common.
When you read NTSB reports on accidents at night, it is dominated by stupid pilot tricks. The pilot is the weakest link at night, and as a rule we tend to make bad ADM. Having a personal rule against night flying is a good method to address the bad ADM.

The other choice is to understand the bad ADM and primary drivers for it.
We are more tired when the sun sets, we likely have put in a full day already, we are flying with getthereitis....

For example, before any cross country flight in the evening I always take a nap...

Tim

Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk
 
tspear said:
Complete engine failure is exceedingly rare. Partial engine failure is only slightly more common.
When you read NTSB reports on accidents at night, it is dominated by stupid pilot tricks. The pilot is the weakest link at night, and as a rule tend to make bad ADM.

This is very understandable when you look at human behavior, we are more tired when the sun sets, we likely have put in a full day already, we are flying with getthereitis....

Tim

Tim

Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk
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Nothing you said mitigates what I said. Ive personally had two complete engine failures in SE piston aircraft, one partial in SE piston and two precautionary shut downs in a ME turbine.

You make you’re decisions regarding risk acceptance but don’t fool yourself, that engine just might quit and you better be damn well ready to deal with it whenever and wherever it happens.

Just to be clear I don’t care how you manage your risk. My issue with your post is the tone of judgment towards others that you have. There is an implication that others are overly cautious and that’s just dumb.
 
If you lose lose power at night with no airports within reach, you might want to consider landing on a charted lake. It’s flat, no trees, no buildings and no risk of fire. Of course you’ll need to have life preservers on board and those of us with retractable gear can remove the risk of flipping by landing with the gear up.

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The brown indicates urban environment with lots of things to crash into. I’d go for the blue.
 
woodchucker said:
The only time you are within gliding distance of an airport at all times is if you stay in the pattern of an airport.
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Not true. I recently flew from N45 to 42B at 7500’ and was within gliding distance of an airport for the entire trip. The only place that was not the case was on the return trip coming back from 42B, but could be mitigated by circling above the airport in the pattern until at sufficient altitude to begin the journey.
 
I dont have a lot of night time, but every time i fly at night, i swear the engine sounds diff

I also had a case of special D at night... that was not fun. I should practice more
 
tspear said:
Then also wonder this. How does the engine of your plane know if it is night, over a city, over a mountain or water?
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I've wondered the same thing. But it sure does. It always runs rougher at night, over a city, over a mountain, and over water.
 
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