Take instrument checkride in LSA without medical?

PeterNSteinmetz

PeterNSteinmetz

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PeterNSteinmetz
As per the title, can a private pilot without a current medical take the instrument checkride in an LSA?

Such a person can act as PIC for the LSA if they have a driver’s license, so it seems like this should be feasible since it is possible to do simulated instrument flight in an LSA like a SkyCatcher.

61.23 does not seem to require a medical certificate under these circumstances nor to explicitly state that such a certificate is not required.

What do PoA members think?
 
Depends, is the Lsa ok for ifr, some are not, most that comply are experimental and equipped properly for ifr.
 
My guess. When you fly an LSA without a medical, you are limited to LSA privileges. You must meet the medical requirements of a private pilot privileges for the instrument test because the private certificate is required. Typically the FAA does not issue a certificate to an applicant who doesn’t meet all the requirements to exercise the privilege of the new certificate.
 
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I was wondering about that as well. However, 61.65 (a) (1) on applying for the instrument rating says the applicant must hold a private pilot certificate. It doesn’t say that one has to have a 3rd class or that one is exercising those privileges.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
I was wondering about that as well. However, 61.65 (a) (1) on applying for the instrument rating says the applicant must hold a private pilot certificate. It doesn’t say that one has to have a 3rd class or that one is exercising those privileges.
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61.23 is the reg for what medical is required when.

If an operation requires a Private Pilot certificate, you are by definition exercising Private Pilot privileges when conducting that operation. Since 61.65 requires a private pilot certificate to take the checkride, you are exercising the privileges of that certificate when taking the checkride, and therefore a medical (or basic med) is required by 61.23 unless the examiner agrees to act as PIC (which is a whole other can of worms).
 
61.23(a)(3) requires at least a third class certificate

"(iii) When taking a practical test in an aircraft for a recreational pilot, private pilot, commercial pilot, or airline transport pilot certificate, or for a flight instructor certificate, except when operating under the conditions and limitations set forth in §61.113(i);"

I have not seen (haven't looked) anything official, but my guess is that would include a practical test for a rating associated with those certificates.
 
midlifeflyer said:
61.23(a)(3) requires at least a third class certificate

"(iii) When taking a practical test in an aircraft for a recreational pilot, private pilot, commercial pilot, or airline transport pilot certificate, or for a flight instructor certificate, except when operating under the conditions and limitations set forth in §61.113(i);"

I have not seen (haven't looked) anything official, but my guess is that would include a practical test for a rating associated with those certificates.
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If you interpret it that way then you’d have to have a third class to take your light sport practical, which you don’t, but I think mauleskinner got it.
 
MauleSkinner said:
61.23 is the reg for what medical is required when.

If an operation requires a Private Pilot certificate, you are by definition exercising Private Pilot privileges when conducting that operation. Since 61.65 requires a private pilot certificate to take the checkride, you are exercising the privileges of that certificate when taking the checkride, and therefore a medical (or basic med) is required by 61.23 unless the examiner agrees to act as PIC (which is a whole other can of worms).
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This seems a bit odd to me. Per 61.65 you must hold a private pilot certificate to apply for an instrument rating. I don't think that means you are exercising the privileges of a private pilot certificate when you are sitting in the FBO answering questions about the "1-2-3" rule or whatever before the flight portion. The FAA may intend for checkrides to work the way you described, but that's not clear from what's written in Part 61, at least to me.
 
Salty said:
If you interpret it that way then you’d have to have a third class to take your light sport practical, which you don’t, but I think mauleskinner got it.
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A light sport practical is not a practical test for a recreational, private, commercial, or ATP certificate or rating.
 
midlifeflyer said:
A light sport practical is not a practical test for a recreational, private, commercial, or ATP certificate or rating.
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True, I missed that
 
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There's actually no rule that says the examinee must be PIC during a checkride. In fact, if you do your checkride under IFR, you can't. However, the FAA strongly discourages designated examiners from being PIC during rides.
 
Got me thinking. I am instrument rated in helos and airplanes. My certificate also includes: Com Glider. The FAA does not have a glider instrument rating. Gliders are routinely cleared into Class A airspace. To fly in "A" airspace, the pilot must be rated and the aircraft IFR equipped. My 1st class medical has expired.
But now I want to go wave soaring out west. My altitude chamber was decades ago.

I am told that an Instrument rating, airplane will work in a glider. I am further told that I only need an IPC. Can I do it? How?
 
Maxnr said:
Got me thinking. I am instrument rated in helos and airplanes. My certificate also includes: Com Glider. The FAA does not have a glider instrument rating. Gliders are routinely cleared into Class A airspace. To fly in "A" airspace, the pilot must be rated and the aircraft IFR equipped. My 1st class medical has expired.
But now I want to go wave soaring out west. My altitude chamber was decades ago.

I am told that an Instrument rating, airplane will work in a glider. I am further told that I only need an IPC. Can I do it? How?
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61.57
(3) Maintaining instrument recent experience in a glider.

(i) Within the 6 calendar months preceding the month of the flight, that person must have performed and logged at least the following instrument currency tasks, iterations, and flight time, and the instrument currency must have been performed in actual weather conditions or under simulated weather conditions—

(A) One hour of instrument flight time in a glider or in a single engine airplane using a view-limiting device while performing interception and tracking courses through the use of navigation electronic systems.

(B) Two hours of instrument flight time in a glider or a single engine airplane with the use of a view-limiting device while performing straight glides, turns to specific headings, steep turns, flight at various airspeeds, navigation, and slow flight and stalls.

(ii) Before a pilot is allowed to carry a passenger in a glider under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR, that pilot must—

(A) Have logged and performed 2 hours of instrument flight time in a glider within the 6 calendar months preceding the month of the flight.

(B) Use a view-limiting-device while practicing performance maneuvers, performance airspeeds, navigation, slow flight, and stalls.
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as far as “routinely cleared into Class A airspace”, that’s more likely under the auspices of a waiver than an instrument rating.

Also note that “IFR Equipped” is not per 91.205 unless it’s a motorglider.
 
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61.3(e)(3)


(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:

(1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and instrument rating on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift being flown;

(2) An airline transport pilot certificate with the appropriate aircraft category, class, and type rating (if required) for the aircraft being flown;

(3) For a glider, a pilot certificate with a glider category rating and an airplane instrument rating;

61.57(c)

c) Instrument experience. Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, a person may act as pilot in command under IFR or weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR only if:


(3) Maintaining instrument recent experience in a glider.

(i) Within the 6 calendar months preceding the month of the flight, that person must have performed and logged at least the following instrument currency tasks, iterations, and flight time, and the instrument currency must have been performed in actual weather conditions or under simulated weather conditions—

(A) One hour of instrument flight time in a glider or in a single engine airplane using a view-limiting device while performing interception and tracking courses through the use of navigation electronic systems.

(B) Two hours of instrument flight time in a glider or a single engine airplane with the use of a view-limiting device while performing straight glides, turns to specific headings, steep turns, flight at various airspeeds, navigation, and slow flight and stalls.

(ii) Before a pilot is allowed to carry a passenger in a glider under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR, that pilot must—

(A) Have logged and performed 2 hours of instrument flight time in a glider within the 6 calendar months preceding the month of the flight.

(B) Use a view-limiting-device while practicing performance maneuvers, performance airspeeds, navigation, slow flight, and stalls.

 
MauleSkinner said:
as far as “routinely cleared into Class A airspace”, that’s more likely under the auspices of a waiver than an instrument rating.
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This. It's done with wave windows and ATC agreement pursuant to 91.135(d).
 
Does it have an IFR pitot static check and GRABCARD?

Edit:

Come to think of it, I think that one of the requirements for the checkride is a third class medical, but I will have to check the FAR’s.

Okay, read 61.39 (a) 4. This is “Prerequisites for practical test.”
 
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But 61.39 (a) 4 says a third class medical is needed, “if a medical certificate is required”. But that doesn’t answer if a medical certificate is required.

It strikes me this is one of those cases not specifically spelled out in the regulations. I wonder if there is a letter of interpretation on this? Sort of a narrow edge case so may not have been dealt with previously.

Practically speaking would clearly depend on what the DPE doing the exam thought.
 
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I’ve been down this rabbit hole a number of times and among the many views from AOPA, this place, local flight schools, CFII’s and my bartender, the plurality of view is a Private pilot without a medical cannot obtain an Instrument rating. No one has ever pointed to a clear and unambiguous statement in the FAR’s that I could understand. It may be clear to some, but not to me.

BTW, the EAA had a webinar not to long ago about flying IFR in a properly equipped LSA. The summary basically said maybe it is legal and maybe it isn’t. You can find it in the EAA Library.

Cheers
 
I suppose it’s up to each instructor, but if you are an IR Private desiring a flight review without a medical in an LSA, I will do it. If the same pilots wanted an IPC in an LSA without a medical, I won’t do it.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
But 61.39 (a) 4 says a third class medical is needed, “if a medical certificate is required”. But that doesn’t answer if a medical certificate is required.

It strikes me this is one of those cases not specifically spelled out in the regulations.
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Kind of like it’s not specifically spelled out in the regulations that flying as captain of a 737 on the line for Southwest requires a medical.
 
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MauleSkinner said:
Kind of like it’s not specifically spelled out in the regulations that flying as captain of a 737 on the line for Southwest requires a medical.
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It’s not? Requires exercising privileges of an ATP certificate and a 1st class medical, doesn’t it?
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
It’s not? Requires exercising privileges of an ATP certificate and a 1st class medical, doesn’t it?
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No, it only requires him/her to HOLD an ATP certificate. There’s nothing that says it’s exercising the privileges of that certificate. Almost exactly the same regulatory verbiage as the requirements to take a checkride for an instrument rating.

PeterNSteinmetz said:
However, 61.65 (a) (1) on applying for the instrument rating says the applicant must hold a private pilot certificate. It doesn’t say that one has to have a 3rd class or that one is exercising those privileges.
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There's no privilege to fly in instrument conditions under sport rules. Don't confuse the airplane with the level of privilege.

Similar question - could you fly an appropriately equipped LSA airplane at night under LSA rules using your private + driver's license as medical? The answer is clearly no. You're either flying under LSA rules and limitations or you're flying under private rules and limitations.

Yes, if you have your private, then don't have to get specific training and endorsements to fly under LSA rules to airports with control towers. But that's because the FAA has deemed that you already have all the training, different topic.
 
There is “point of the law” and there is also “spirit of the law.” The discussion here so far has centered around “point of the law.” Let’s back away from the bark on the trees and look at the whole forest.

Is instrument flying in an LSA, a rating that was designed with various limitations including airspace and medical requirements, within the spirit in which the program was created?

Don’t flame me. I am simply posing a question to consider.





Now, after you’ve considered my question, my response to my own question is this: it seems to me that whether the check ride is in an LSA or a larger aircraft would not have much to do with the spirit of the law applying to a particular check ride. A check ride is checking the pilot, not the airplane, although a legal aircraft must be used.

Since it is the pilot and not the airplane that is being tested, it would seem that the medical requirement would be the same whether it was flown in an LSA or in a 172.

My $0.02,
 
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I think the point of the requirement in 61.39 is to say "Only a third class medical is required, and only then if some other regulation requires the possession of a medical at all." This was a change when it used to be that you had to have a second to take the commercial checkride, and that was changed ages ago. If the reg wanted to say a medical is required if the rating you're applying for would in some circumstances require a medical, it would say that.

The fact that LSA aircraft or Sport Pilots can't fly under IFR is spurious. Instrument checkrides rarely take place under IFR (the FAA strongly discourages DPEs and probably outright bars their own employees from doing such). 61.45 specifically lets examiners use LSAs at their discretion provided they meet the other requirements (dual controls, etc...).

So, all I can see is the guidance that the FAA gives to the DPE that strongly discourages them from acting as PIC during rides, but there's no absolute ban.
 
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