Spend $1000 to make $100?

Lowflynjack

Lowflynjack

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Jack Fleetwood
Took me awhile to come up with this title, and my numbers are way under actual prices!

You guys all know I'm an aviation photographer. You may even know I'm a private pilot with somewhere around 9400 hours (9k tailwheel). I grew up in a family with two uncles who were pilots and one of them managed an airport and was an A&P IA, so I got a lot of opportunities to fly and got to fly some cool planes over the years.

Anyway, I'm 47 now. I work for a large company as a purchasing manager and I've been doing that for around 17 years. I always tell people, don't let your kids go into purchasing. You're never good enough... you either don't have enough material or you have too much! I'm over it. Lately I've seen too many good friends make it to retirement only to die shortly after. I lost my Sister last week and she was only 49. I lost my Mom a few years ago at 58.

I want to retire from my day job and enjoy life. To do this, I will need to sell my house (it's a seller's market in the Austin area), buy an RV to live in, buy a plane cash, and make enough money to live. I can make some money through photography and the ultimate goal is to travel around the US with my girlfriend, who is working on learning to fly and eventually have her be my photo pilot.

So now that I've told you my aviation-life story, here's what I'm thinking about and I want input from those of you who have done it. Is it worth becoming a CFI? I'm sure it would be part time. When I do the simple math, it seems like I would need to spend a lot of money on IFR, Commercial, CFI and never come close to making that money back. I can afford it now and later it would be an extra source of income, but other than paying forward all of the great opportunities I've been given, is it worth it?
 
I really hope that photography dream with the girlfriend flying the plane works out. That would be a sweet set up.
As for CFI, I say go for it. I think there will be work for CFIs for a long time to come. Sounds like you may have an extensive network of aviation friends who can be your students or refer you to students. Even if you do mostly flight reviews and plane checkouts here and there, you will likely recoup the cost getting to CFI sooner than you think.
 
I can give you a lot more input about the RV purchase than anything. :)

If you're currently a private pilot, becoming a CFI really means getting your commercial, instrument rating (if you don't already have it), and then the CFI. It's a significant and expensive process. If you want to do it, go for it. If you're going to be traveling (as opposed to more or less based in your RV in one place) that makes having a CFI as a source of income harder since CFIing is largely about having a local customer base. Of course, you're well known enough that you may be able to make it work to be a traveling CFI.

I have my CFI, CFII, and MEI. I enjoy multi instruction and instrument instruction, but I decided some time ago to stop doing instruction as for me, I didn't enjoy it enough to do more with aviation on weekends. I'll still do some instruction for friends, but that's it, and even then its fairly limited. When I had to renew my CFI a month or two ago I was tempted to just let it lapse.

Remember that a job is a job and has its negative parts. If aviation has been your passion, turning it into a job that your income depends on may be fine for you, or may ruin it for you. Just food for thought.
 
One thing to consider is how much you enjoy being with other people, shoulder to shoulder in the grind of teaching. If that is a natural thing for you it will help considerably. Teaching is not for everyone. I still have my CFII, but after years at a very active school I can’t see doing that much volume again.

Worse case scenario, besides being out the training costs, is you’ll become a better pilot after having earned your ratings - from a good CFI. I’ve heard your story many times, the success rate is dependent on how persistent and dedicated the person is when doing this in a favorable market.

Going from high income to low income is never easy but it can be done.
 
If the plan is to buy an RV and plant roots, going for the CFI and CFII could end up being worth while. If the plan is to get in the RV and be a nomad going from place to place, then having the CFI/CFII could end up coming handy but probably won't keep food on the table most of the time. I'd recommend getting commercial, instrument and Multi in either case. If you're going to be making ends meet in the gig economy, you want to be able to have as many gig options available as possible.
 
Soooo... she drives the RV to the new spot, while you fly the plane there, then picks you up at the airport.

I like it :)

I would have to wonder how traveling about and having an airplane would mix. Seems most I hear from say there is no hangar space available without looong waits.
Guess it really depends on how often you intend to fly, or if you are okay with it being outside a lot?
Don't know, just thinking.... I've often considered the same move you are speaking about. (sans photography as I'm no good at it).
CFI would be another option for income, plus if time allowed, you could get the girlfriend certified and start making it pay at least some dividends right away.

CFI or not, it sounds more fun that purchase managing ;)
 
Not sure how good of a photo platform it would make, but if you got yourself a Sportsman 2+2, you could probably trailer it behind the RV which could make the logistics of moving your base of ops cheaper and easier.
 
Nice input so far, thank you!

TrueCourse said:
One thing to consider is how much you enjoy being with other people, shoulder to shoulder in the grind of teaching. If that is a natural thing for you it will help considerably. Teaching is not for everyone.
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I think I would enjoy it. I have flown with students who were frustrated with their instructors and helped them to feel comfortable. I have a friend who is an instructor who is begging me to become an instructor. He's a commercial pilot who does instruction on the side, but he tells his students they will learn a lot more from me than they will with him! Exaggeration of course! I think being a pilot for most of my life and flying aerobatics has made me calm in almost any situation and that is what new pilots enjoy about flying with me.

Juliet Hotel said:
If the plan is to buy an RV and plant roots, going for the CFI and CFII could end up being worth while. If the plan is to get in the RV and be a nomad going from place to place, then having the CFI/CFII could end up coming handy but probably won't keep food on the table most of the time.
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I'm not 100% sure of the plan. The RV is about getting rid of a house payment and having a roof over my head. A small house somewhere might also be an option. If I use the RV to go on the road for photography, we would probably spend a month in a location. It may end up being cheaper to fly somewhere for a week and do a bunch of shoots, then return to home base.

BTW, I forgot to mention the girlfriend has a good job in IT and can work from anywhere, so there's that!
 
If you were independently wealthy, didn't need to work to put food on the table, then your plan would work.

CFI work as your full time job I see as similar to a "starving grad student" who is paid just enough to stay off of food stamps. They do it as part of the final two year or so part of their training to get the 1500 hours so they can get a job at the airlines.

So, if you do this in 10 years your RV will be old and needing replaced, you'll have no savings/retirement, have a huge hole in your resume, and no place to live.

There are other options that can include both having a job that pays the bills, keeps you from being homeless, and doesn't give you a heart attack. The job market is hot right now - what other areas can your background in purchasing be applied to?
 
Lowflynjack said:
I'm not 100% sure of the plan. The RV is about getting rid of a house payment and having a roof over my head. A small house somewhere might also be an option. If I use the RV to go on the road for photography, we would probably spend a month in a location. It may end up being cheaper to fly somewhere for a week and do a bunch of shoots, then return to home base.
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I think this is an important thing to understand and figure out. In my opinion, full-timing in an RV is really not a great option unless you're doing some form of traveling with it. Maybe that includes going and spending a month or two in a place, maybe even 6 months, but still with the intent of picking up and moving later. Otherwise, you've invested in a depreciating asset (especially with RV prices these days) with little space. RVs really do best when not subjected to the elements 24/7/365. Think about them as a bus first and a house second.

Also, even a 40-45' RV is a still a 300-350 square foot home, so you're talking a really small space. If it's just you and your girlfriend then maybe that's fine, but long term most people like to have some ability to have space to themselves. We love our RV trips, but when we get home at the end of them, we all retreat to our own corners for a couple days.
 
Full time RVing is possible, but only in the right RV. If it's your typical sticks and staples RV, those are never built to withstand full-time occupancy. They are built to (mostly) work for a total of a year or two of consecutive use... or several years of occasional use - and even then, they barely cover that base.

Serious (and successful) full timers are generally found in some pretty stout equipment. The newer stuff will likely cost at least as much as you sell your house for. If you are open to older equipment, your options get a little more reasonable. Thinks brands like Airstream (which barely makes the cut for full-timing, but is IMHO really the only trailer option), Wanderlodge, Newell, Prevost, American Coach... anything that's actually all (or at least mostly...) metal.

Just some random thoughts on the full-timers situation.
 
One thing to consider is to become a Sport Pilot CFI, which doesn't require a commercial or instrument, see how you like it before spending lots of money.

To go full time in an RV, you can't have a lot of "stuff". My parents did it for about a year in their Airstream and enjoyed it, but never intended it as a permanent thing; they were between houses with most of their stuff in storage.
 
CFI will provide some fuel money for the plane. It actually does sound compatible with your proposed downsizing, but it's not something I would recommend to someone without knowing that back story.

It's not a lucrative (ie replacement for other real jobs) side-hustle, and I say this as someone within a decent niche within piston training. I also normally bill at tech rates, so I might be a bit gauche about what my time is worth. My instruction rates are a about third of my tech rates, and I have access to less than half of the CFI billable hours each week.

I think I could get 30 hours/week billable CFI on my best week, and my average is closer to 8-10. I have a pretty deep backlog, but the preparatory work for those hours are pretty tiring and uncompensated if you do a good, bespoke job of it. If you can get a funnel and a cookie-cutter syllabus going, you could increase volume, but rates tend to suffer for that sort of work, so it could just be a wash.

$0.02 :)
 
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Lowflynjack said:
I'm not 100% sure of the plan. The RV is about getting rid of a house payment and having a roof over my head. A small house somewhere might also be an option.
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Strongly recommend you look for a cheaper house if that's the case. As stated a few posts up, RV's are not built for full time living. Using one as your primary residence, its only a matter of time before things start breaking. And when they do, they'll cost way more to fix than anything in your house.
 
I agree with @Steve Costello 's points above. Our RV is a 2000 Holiday Rambler Endeavor 40'. Being old enough to buy alcohol, it absolutely has had its aging issues, and we've had to go through and deal with most of them since buying it close to a year ago. It seems to be generally considered a "good" RV by most I've talked to (although significantly lower end than a Prevost, Wanderlodge, etc.), but I don't think it would hold up well indefinitely. Even having it sit outside for 9 months until the shop was built and we could finally put it indoors took a noticeable toll in some areas. Slide leaks are a big one.

The "dream" for us (in a perfect world without limitations like money) would be a 45' Prevost. But now you're talking 6 figures (in many cases well into the 6 figures) for something in even reasonable condition, and a lot of those may need a remodel to bring them up to a modern decor. We'll probably stick with our 40' HR, though. It's "good enough" and we've made it "ours" with the remodeling. One consideration for you would be a small house AND an RV, which realistically might not cost you much more money, but give you a lot more flexibility.
 
In my eyes, the best way to go is to have some kind of business generating revenue, so you don’t have to be tied to a 9a to 5p everyday for 40+ years. Yes, I’m aware of the drawbacks, but the benefits outweigh the negatives imho and it provides a lot more flexibility. Are there any side hustles that interest you enough to pursue?
 
I became a CFI in my sixties and a lot of friends told me it wasn’t worth the effort or money at my age.

In my opinion they were wrong and I am 71 now.

Learning the required information is a wonderful brain exercise and I have no doubt that it has increased my cognitive ability.

I am a much better pilot now and I learn things from every client.

I find great joy in being a flight instructor and sharing my love of aviation.

It gives me a reason to be excited about beginning each day.

If you were trying to make money giving flight instruction it would probably be good to have a base of operations and travel from there.

Specializing in tail wheel would probably allow you to charge a higher rate and increase the size of the area you pull clients from.

My clients are very patient when I want to go somewhere for a month.

It is those opportunities you missed that you will regret.

Getting your commercial would afford you more options for aerial photography.

Good luck with your changing life.
 

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Lowflynjack said:
Took me awhile to come up with this title, and my numbers are way under actual prices!

You guys all know I'm an aviation photographer. You may even know I'm a private pilot with somewhere around 9400 hours (9k tailwheel). I grew up in a family with two uncles who were pilots and one of them managed an airport and was an A&P IA, so I got a lot of opportunities to fly and got to fly some cool planes over the years.

Anyway, I'm 47 now. I work for a large company as a purchasing manager and I've been doing that for around 17 years. I always tell people, don't let your kids go into purchasing. You're never good enough... you either don't have enough material or you have too much! I'm over it. Lately I've seen too many good friends make it to retirement only to die shortly after. I lost my Sister last week and she was only 49. I lost my Mom a few years ago at 58.

I want to retire from my day job and enjoy life. To do this, I will need to sell my house (it's a seller's market in the Austin area), buy an RV to live in, buy a plane cash, and make enough money to live. I can make some money through photography and the ultimate goal is to travel around the US with my girlfriend, who is working on learning to fly and eventually have her be my photo pilot.

So now that I've told you my aviation-life story, here's what I'm thinking about and I want input from those of you who have done it. Is it worth becoming a CFI? I'm sure it would be part time. When I do the simple math, it seems like I would need to spend a lot of money on IFR, Commercial, CFI and never come close to making that money back. I can afford it now and later it would be an extra source of income, but other than paying forward all of the great opportunities I've been given, is it worth it?
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Its a great pursuit, and I envy your options.
I have been a CFI for 21 years as a small side activity. My highest activity was 40 hrs dual given in a month. Lowest month was zero. There were many zero months. Even now I spend far more money on flying than I make as a CFI.

Specifically with respect to the IR/COMM/CFI/CFII costs, if I factor in all costs related to those ratings, and not just the aircraft time, I don't think I ever recovered my expenses. But that was never the objective. The personal enrichment that comes from earning those ratings was well worth the money.
I would recommend you go for the CFI certificate, but don't count on making all that money back.
 
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Having lived twenty four months of my life in an RV I can tell you it’s something I’m planning to never do again.

That’s me not you.

I strongly recommend spending more than a few days in one before committing.

No matter how much you like it don’t forget it’s not an asset like a house. You’re basically moving your butt and your assets into a fancy car.
 
Jack -

I can't comment much about the RV thing, but becoming a flight instructor has probably been my greatest source of personal satisfaction and accomplishment to date, not to mention the doors it has opened for me over the 5 years I've had it. (Ask me about how my company let me use a PC12 for my CFI-I checkride!) You're a sharp guy, you have 9000 hours of tailwheel time (which is just staggering to me!), and you obviously understand the business. Getting the prerequisite tickets (IR, Commercial) will be time consuming, and expensive, as you well know. For you, I suspect the commercial rating could be done in two sequential long weekends with the right instructor. As for the instrument rating, maybe you'd want to consider one of those two week "zero to hero" courses you find in Florida or occasionally scattered elsewhere throughout the states. At that point, the flight instructor rating is largely ground based, i.e., study, much of it self study.

If you do end up going down that path, I suspect with those 9000 hours in tailwheels, you're in a unique position to offer specialized instruction, which people will travel and pay a premium for. (Think day rates $$$)

Something to consider!
 
Lowflynjack said:
…I want to retire from my day job and enjoy life. To do this, I will need to sell my house (it's a seller's market in the Austin area), buy an RV to live in, buy a plane cash, and make enough money to live. I can make some money through photography and the ultimate goal is to travel around the US with my girlfriend, who is working on learning to fly and eventually have her be my photo pilot.
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There’s a lot to unpack there. Setting all else aside, health insurance seems to be the golden handcuffs for most.

If you can find a way to make it work, then do it. It won’t be all unicorns and rainbows all the time, but you are the only person you have to please.
 
I've heard it's difficult to find someone for the tailwheel endorsement in my neck of the woods. Haven't looked so I don't know if that's true. I know a few CFI's that get by just fine.
 
My sincere condolences about the loss of your sister. 49 is way too young. Hope it's not a genetics thing with your family, otherwise I can completely empathize with the sudden penchant for carpe diem/mid-life crisis. Good luck to ya on the life pivot.

And yeah, the AUS market it nutso, I wouldn't want to endure having to cover housing costs in that metro these days. Cuts way too much into discretionary spending, at least for those of us for whom housing is merely an ancillary artifact of living, and not a destination/goal itself. Undershooting housing expenses has been a central part to my life budget for the past 15 years.
 
Jack,

First of all, I hate hearing about the recent loss of your sister. I lost my late wife five years ago and it’s a process to work through. It seems that you have a lot of things on your mind. You need to make sure you are past the grieving before making a decision like this. Being coupled with frustration with your job clouds the perspective even further. It is a decision that needs to be made with a clear mind and a minimum amount of emotion.

Once in a zone where you can make such a decision, I think you’re onto some things that could work well for you. Since I have met you in person, I think you would have a good demeanor for an instructor. Your tailwheel experience might even provide you with a niche in tailwheel instruction and endorsements. I would sign up to learn from someone with a head cool enough to set it gently in the trees after the engine gave up.

As far as the aerial photography goes, I expect you would have opportunities in Mount Pleasant to earn from your skills and with a mobile outfit, there is probably a way to advertise and schedule in a certain location and have people lined up to pay for professional aerial shots of their winged pride and joy.

The Nomadic part of it is something that would work for some people and not for others. I think it is quite natural to want a little piece of Gods Green Earth to call his own. That is comforting to most people, but there are others who are perfectly happy to just keep moving.

This would be a major step as I’m sure you fully realize and I’m sure you will give it the thought and soul searching it deserves.

I wish you the very best while working through this major decision.
 
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So many great replies and I like that it's positives and negatives! I read them all and have to say I hadn't thought of some major issues that were pointed out. Thanks to you all.

I will say this is not a spur-of-the moment thing, I'm not reacting to life changes, it's something I've considered for a long time. I'm not sure if I made the change that it would be permanent... I might hit the road for a year or two and go back to the daily grind. I might buy a house in a small town that I can afford to pay off and just simplify my life. I've made no decisions yet and even if I did, I figure it would take me a year or so to have the ducks in a row.

On the loss of my Sister... unfortunately she struggled with substance additions for most of her life. She pushed most of her family/friends away in the last few years. As a lot of these stories go, she was really trying to turn her life around and we thought she'd succeeded... then she took one step backwards and it was quickly downhill from there. I'm terribly sad that she's gone and sad that she struggled with life. Some people wouldn't share these details, but I truly believe an addiction like this is something few people can turn around and nothing to be ashamed of. I know she desperately wanted to change. I don't judge her, there but for the Grace of God go I...

hindsight2020 said:
My sincere condolences about the loss of your sister. 49 is way too young. Hope it's not a genetics thing with your family, otherwise I can completely empathize with the sudden penchant for carpe diem/mid-life crisis.
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MBDiagMan said:
Jack,

First of all, I hate hearing about the recent loss of your sister. I lost my late wife five years ago and it’s a process to work through. It seems that you have a lot of things on your mind. You need to make sure you are past the grieving before making a decision like this. Being coupled with frustration with your job clouds the perspective even further. It is a decision that needs to be made with a clear mind and a minimum amount of emotion.
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Lowflynjack said:
..........
I'm not 100% sure of the plan. The RV is about getting rid of a house payment and having a roof over my head. A small house somewhere might also be an option. If I use the RV to go on the road for photography, we would probably spend a month in a location. It may end up being cheaper to fly somewhere for a week and do a bunch of shoots, then return to home base.
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Ya gotta have a place to put the RV. Do some homework on that. My wife and I did the Fulltime RV thing for about 10 years. Towards the end it had started being an adventure finding spots to to put it. Kinda like finding a hangar for a plane. Know what RV park availability and costs are before pulling the trigger and doing it.
 
Very sorry to hear about your sister and mom.

Its so easy to list negatives. We've looked at big and small campers and I know for me to do it full time i'd want something big which will depreciate and deteriorate if not stored / parked favorably. It seems camping and rv fees are getting crazy as well.

Sounds like you'd be a great CFI. Its just down to whether its worth it or not. Hard to guess the cost as I've never done it, but probably another $40k...$60k ???

If yku still own a plane where you store it if moving around a lot sounds complicated and expensive.

I'm a believer the market will turn fairly quickly, say 12...18 months. If you are in that camp then look at things another way:

Selling your home now (as you opened with) will grab as much equity as it might for many years. So what do you do with it.

Well, that same (predicted) fall (should) lead to home prices stabilizing and then dropping somewhat. I believe luxury auto, rvs, boats might have some sweet deals.

So you can hear the theme here...maybe we're at a time to take some actions and also wait a bit on others.

Maybe something like this:

1. Pick a new place to live where you think you could easily get the same job if needed.

2. Find a rental there, bigger than a rv of course but not too big.

3. Sell the house in Austin asap, move to the new rental.

4. Buy a small tow behind camper or self propelled and do some camping around your new location.

...the objective above is to get you someplace new, see what the economy does and defer the big decision a bit longer. While doing that you'll find out if a location change was really what you were after. You will also find out if rv'ing is what you are really after. I watch it everyday at work. The teams want to make decisions at the start of projects and while often good, the decisions made during the middle and even near the end lead to way better products.

Example: Let's say you move to a mountain area. You are such a friggin great photographer I can't even imagine the photography you will do. Maybe that is your calling.

One last thought. You have 9000hrs tailwheel. My wife is 5000hrs behind you and I'm always learning something. Point is you gotta be one hell of a pilot!!! So maybe ditch the CFI. Work on the IR, Commercial and MEL and then try get on as a commercial pilot. Not the airlines, something smaller. I have a hunch you'll start making more photo/video connections. Start finding yourself photoing Meridians, TBMs, Pilatus, Kodiak, Cirrus, biz Jets and warlords. Your portfolio is A level. You are probably just a move or two away from another level.

Just thoughts.
 
I would love to see this work out but it doesn’t sound like you have a viable business plan put together yet. That is step 1. Have you thought about all the expenses vs how much you will make on a photography session? You may get rid of a mortgage but are just trading it for all the expenses that go along with an RV. You will still have to pay campground fees ($40 a Dax x30 days a month) is $1200 a month. Gas in an RV is at best 8 to 10 miles per gallon so figure another few hundred bucks every time you move. Tires are much more expensive than normal car tires, you will have to pay to keep the propane tank filled, empty the black and grey water, etc. All that is on top of the insurance on the RV plus you will need buy, insure and maintain a second vehicle to tow behind the motor home. You can’t run over to the local restaurant or many businesses as their parking lots don’t usually accommodate something that big. Have you thought about other living expenses such as health insurance? You may be in for a shock at what that costs when not getting it from an employer. All of this is not even getting into owning and maintaining an airplane you planto fly around the country. There will be hanger or ramp fees, insurance, gas, annual inspections, etc. I’m just not seeing how you do all this with only the salary you would make taking pictures of airplanes. Pilots are a cheap bunch and I think you may find that there aren’t enough lucrative opportunities to cover all the expenses or that weather and schedules limit your income opportunities. It sounds like a really fun life if you can make it work but you really need to start putting hard numbers to paper first to see if it’s possible.
 
Man if you can make it happen, do it. I recalculate every year even though I'm still years away from making it happen. I just went through it again since I'm at a crossroads career-wise. But I'm just not there yet. I figure I'll just keep getting the ratings while I can afford them, better spending the time doing that than getting hamburgers...
 
Sorry to hear about your family members Jack. I'd think the depreciation on the RV would be painful. Selling in the hot market Austin and moving somewhere that California isn't invading with lower costs would seem a better option since your girlfriend can work from anywhere. Then use your new plane for photo shoots;)

Me? I contribute to my retirement plan at least once a month, but haven't been able to hit a lottery yet:confused::p
 
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