no need for clearance

Yikes... I’d imagine it’s situations like these that make Bravo airports less willing to accommodate us little guys.
 
<deleted>

edit: look at post #9...
 
Last edited:
Bob Noel said:
hmmmm, "turn left heading 020" ... do towers give that kind of insruction absent a take-off clearance?
Click to expand...
That was definitely confusing. I would not have taken off, but I would have asked what they meant. Sorta sounded like the first part was cut off. Something like "after departure...."
 
Bob Noel said:
hmmmm, "turn left heading 020" ... do towers give that kind of insruction absent a take-off clearance?
Click to expand...
I wondered that as well. That’s a weird instruction.
 
I hope they don't hit him too hard. It was an honest mistake. A clear message not to enter the runway unless you hear the magic words (cross runway, cleared for takeoff, or line up and wait) should do the trick.
 
Bob Noel said:
hmmmm, "turn left heading 020" ... do towers give that kind of insruction absent a take-off clearance?
Click to expand...
may be they wanted to make sure he doesnt cross path with something else. its like now that you have already taken off, lets make sure you dont screw up more
 
WannFly said:
may be they wanted to make sure he doesnt cross path with something else. its like now that you have already taken off, lets make sure you dont screw up more
Click to expand...

That was issued before he took off though.

Edit:

From the 2nd controller

I was the second controller in this audio. The first controller did miss the read back hold short instruction. I agree that the phraseology used was probably confusing but the pilot was filed IFR and should be a little more qualified to know what constitutes a take off clearance. The video/audio is way off. The pilot didn’t stop, rounded the corner and departed. I was trying to obtain a release from satellite while he was crossing 8L. They were busy and needed me to wait. He rotated around E1 and once I saw him I alerted the supervisor, since he was in his critical phase of flight and there was nothing that would harm him, I chose not to talk to him until he was mid field abeam the tower when I asked if he was on my frequency. I called satellite back and to let them know he was on the way and at the departure end I issued a 020 heading which we give to all our props on an East operation. Once he was established in the turn is when I asked if he received a takeoff clearance etc. At this point in time all we knew is the first tower controller told him to hold short and I didn’t give him a take off clearance. It was only after that we could review the tapes to see where the error occurred.
Click to expand...
 
WannFly said:
may be they wanted to make sure he doesnt cross path with something else. its like now that you have already taken off, lets make sure you dont screw up more
Click to expand...
That would make sense. It's hard to tell just by the audio which is probably time edited to make matters worse.
 
Very confusing. Perhaps it didn’t capture the first bit of the audio - something like “73S amend departure instructions... etc”. I get those a billion times departing bravo airports.

When in doubt, ask. It’s a controller f up until it’s yours.
 
EdFred said:
That was issued before he took off though.

Edit:

From the 2nd controller
I was the second controller in this audio. The first controller did miss the read back hold short instruction. I agree that the phraseology used was probably confusing but the pilot was filed IFR and should be a little more qualified to know what constitutes a take off clearance. The video/audio is way off. The pilot didn’t stop, rounded the corner and departed. I was trying to obtain a release from satellite while he was crossing 8L. They were busy and needed me to wait. He rotated around E1 and once I saw him I alerted the supervisor, since he was in his critical phase of flight and there was nothing that would harm him, I chose not to talk to him until he was mid field abeam the tower when I asked if he was on my frequency. I called satellite back and to let them know he was on the way and at the departure end I issued a 020 heading which we give to all our props on an East operation. Once he was established in the turn is when I asked if he received a takeoff clearance etc. At this point in time all we knew is the first tower controller told him to hold short and I didn’t give him a take off clearance. It was only after that we could review the tapes to see where the error occurred.
Click to expand...

That makes a little more sense about the heading instruction, he was already airborne. Still, at a Class B you need to be on your A game.
 
That post from @EdFred clears up what actually happened. I do appreciate that the controller didnt play 20 questions during rotation or at like 100 AGL. I was once asked to put in a new squack at just as i rotated. i didnt answer and kept going, until she came back again on the radio at about 150 AGL asking me to change the code again to which i replied stand by.
 
WannFly said:
That post from @EdFred clears up what actually happened. I do appreciate that the controller didnt play 20 questions during rotation or at like 100 AGL. I was once asked to put in a new squack at just as i rotated. i didnt answer and kept going, until she came back again on the radio at about 150 AGL asking me to change the code again to which i replied stand by.
Click to expand...

That to me really differentiates good versus poor controllers, the ones that try to give instructions and expect response during the critical aspects of takeoff or landing. I've had controllers giving me taxi instructions or asking about parking just as I'm entering the flare. I've had a controller seek to amend an instrument route as I'm rolling on takeoff. The good controllers know to wait.
 
Yeah, the 2nd controller input cited above gives a very different picture than how the video was edited.

The 8L controller said "cross 8L, hold short 8R, no delay" but he read back "cross 8L, 8R no delay". Seems to me he missed the "hold short" and thought he was supposed to take off 8R no delay. If anything, maybe the 8L controller's phrasing would have been better as "cross 8L no delay, hold short 8R". Or at least she could have come back with "confirm hold short 8R".
 
That "turn left" comment would have messed me up. Sounds more like something you do after you take off. Still, I would have asked before taking an active runway at a controlled airport. When in doubt ask. No official reprimand for upsetting a controller.
 
If he actually thought he was cleared for takeoff, then he should have thrown in “cleared for take off eight right no delay.” That would’ve clued the controller in to what the pilot’s intentions were. By mumbling the 8R portion, it gave the impression to the second controller that he copied the hold short.

Still doesn’t give the second controller a pass though because she failed to 1)correct the improper read back and 2) get a hold short read back for runway instructions.
 
It’s pretty clear that the pilot was confused. The phraseology of “turn left 020” without a takeoff or hold short clearance was bad on the controller.

Mistakes on both sides, but he seemed to admit the misunderstanding, so hopefully he doesn’t get a violation over it. Although given the controller’s description it definitely seems like his fault/error more so.
 
Ted said:
It’s pretty clear that the pilot was confused. The phraseology of “turn left 020” without a takeoff or hold short clearance was bad on the controller.

Mistakes on both sides, but he seemed to admit the misunderstanding, so hopefully he doesn’t get a violation over it. Although given the controller’s description it definitely seems like his fault/error more so.
Click to expand...
Agreed, although the controller stated that the audio/video associated with the above video wasn’t accurate, as she issued the 020 heading after he was already airborne.
 
RyanB said:
Agreed, although the controller stated that the audio/video associated with the above video wasn’t accurate, as she issued the 020 heading after he was already airborne.
Click to expand...

I missed that. Yeah, definitely his error.
 
Bob Noel said:
hmmmm, "turn left heading 020" ... do towers give that kind of insruction absent a take-off clearance?
Click to expand...

Pretty common with bravo airports. But usually phrased as "line up and wait (or something like it), after departure, left turn heading xyz". Or Just something similar. Just "turn left heading 020" is unusual and possibly wrong phraseology. A pilot experienced in bravo ops would not have taken off but possibly read back as "after departure, turn...." Or questioned.
 
Seeing how half of you didn't read what the controller said actually happened and are saying the 020 is confusing and not standard I wouldn't be surprised if it's one of you on the recording.

The 020 comment was well after takeoff, not before. The person that made the video screwed up the audio and visual sync.
 
Big f-up on the part of the pilot, good thing no one got hurt. Have to hear those magic words before you go, "cleared for takeoff".
 
Clearance smearance.... just get on the radio and use your best falsetto voice...."outta the way boys, I gonna takeoff/land now...'' and go... :lol::lol:
 
WannFly said:
That post from @EdFred clears up what actually happened. I do appreciate that the controller didnt play 20 questions during rotation or at like 100 AGL. I was once asked to put in a new squack at just as i rotated. i didnt answer and kept going, until she came back again on the radio at about 150 AGL asking me to change the code again to which i replied stand by.
Click to expand...
Same thing happened to me when doing IFR training. The CFII said unable, the tower replied WHAT?. Before the my CFII replied another voice (I assume a supervisor) said something along the lines of never distract a pilot with directions until airborne and stable.

Tim

Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk
 
EdFred said:
Seeing how half of you didn't read what the controller said actually happened and are saying the 020 is confusing and not standard I wouldn't be surprised if it's one of you on the recording.

The 020 comment was well after takeoff, not before. The person that made the video screwed up the audio and visual sync.
Click to expand...

Sorry about that. Point taken. Really bad mistake by the pilot.
 
Kick the tiya & light the fiya! Come on girl ... I got places to be! :D

Seriously, there really seems to be enough blame to go around here. I agree with others that if the pilot thought he was cleared he should have repeated back the clearance he thought he heard.

Glad to see he was smart enough to own it and not argue that he couldn't copy a phone number cause he was too busy flying! :rofl:
 
Salty said:
I hope they don't hit him too hard.
Click to expand...

I've been surprised by the things pilots will do that they just get a "slap on the wrist" for (aka, just a stern warning on the phone call with the controller).
 
Bob Noel said:
hmmmm, "turn left heading 020" ... do towers give that kind of insruction absent a take-off clearance?
Click to expand...

Yes. But not absent a continue to hold short. Based on what we heard, that controller is going to have some splainin' to do.

k. When a local controller delivers or amends an ATC clearance to an aircraft awaiting departure and that aircraft is holding short of a runway or is holding in position on a runway, an additional clearance must be issued to prevent the possibility of the aircraft inadvertently taxiing onto the runway and/or beginning takeoff roll. In such cases, append one of the following ATC instructions as appropriate:
1.
HOLD SHORT OF RUNWAY, or
2.
HOLD IN POSITION.

EDIT: Post #9 puts this in a different light. The guy what made that video is the one which be havin' some some splainin' to do.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top