Formation Flying

[Ed Haywood]

Just had my first lesson today. What a blast!

Got linked up with an Air Force T-6B Instructor Pilot. He gave me some ground school, then we went up in a 2 ship formation. Lead was a PT-23. I was trail in my Super Decathlon, with the IP in my back seat. Spent about 45 minutes working on the basics. The first 15 or 20 minutes were overwhelming. Too many dimensions at once. After a while I started to settle down and got to where I could hold a reasonably tight position in straight and level flight. Turning was quite a challenge though.

Being close enough to another pilot to actually see his facial expressions is extraordinary. I'm not sure I ever want to do any other kind of flying again.

Unfortunately, no pictures to share. There was a lot going on, and we were in formation from about 1 minute after takeoff until just before final approach. Next time.

What a blast!

(did I say that already?)

 

[35 AoA]

Awesome! It's a lot a first huh? Don't worry, it is for nearly everyone, and it eventually is like riding a bike if you stick with it for everyone too. Just focus on your ABC's. The muscle memory (and inside/outside scan) will eventually follow. Super cool!

 

[Velocity173]

My brother flys in a formation “demo team.” Really it’s 6 guys flying GA airplanes on weekends. They do events such as funeral flyovers, parades, etc. I can tell it’s given him a new spark in his interest in aviation. He was starting to get bored with it and was thinking of selling his C150. Now he talks about getting an RV!

The only thing that worries me is I don’t think any of them have attended any formal school or clinic that teaches formation flying. I’ve got probably a couple thousand hrs flying in formation in helos (mostly) and airplanes. Even with proper military training, I can’t tell you the number of close calls I’ve seen. Came closer to dying flying formation than anything else in my flying. Be careful out there!

 

[Ed Haywood]

My brother flys in a formation “demo team.” Really it’s 6 guys flying GA airplanes on weekends. They do events such as funeral flyovers, parades, etc. I can tell it’s given him a new spark in his interest in aviation. He was starting to get bored with it and was thinking of selling his C150. Now he talks about getting an RV!

The only thing that worries me is I don’t think any of them have attended any formal school or clinic that teaches formation flying. I’ve got probably a couple thousand hrs flying in formation in helos (mostly) and airplanes. Even with proper military training, I can’t tell you the number of close calls I’ve seen. Came closer to dying flying formation than anything else in my flying. Be careful out there!

View attachment 96705

Got 20+ years as meat cargo in hawks, MH-53's, ****hooks, etc. All us ground troops and SOF used to say if we were going to die, it would probably be in a helicopter.

After I flew yesterday, my first call was to a college classmate who recently retired as an O-6. About half his career was in TF 160. He said the hardest thing he ever did was refueling a hawk behind an MC-130.

Roger on being careful. After trying it, there is no way I would feel comfortable doing what we did without a true pro in the back seat. Fortunately I had a guy whose profession is literally teaching formation flight to USAF student pilots, so I felt I was on solid ground.

Here is one of my favorite helo photos. I took it at about 12,000 feet in the Alps, on the border between Austria and Switzerland. A friendly ride home after a very cold week.

 

[Velocity173]

Got 20+ years as meat cargo in hawks, MH-53's, ****hooks, etc. All us ground troops and SOF used to say if we were going to die, it would probably be in a helicopter.

After I flew yesterday, my first call was to a college classmate who recently retired as an O-6. About half his career was in TF 160. He said the hardest thing he ever did was refueling a hawk behind an MC-130.

Roger on being careful. After trying it, there is no way I would feel comfortable doing what we did without a true pro in the back seat. Fortunately I had a guy whose profession is literally teaching formation flight to USAF student pilots, so I felt I was on solid ground.

Here is one of my favorite helo photos. Taken at about 12,000 feet in the Alps, on the border between Austria and Switzerland. A friendly ride home.
View attachment 96706

Lol! Belly is in the snow. Seen a few belly antennas / search lights get broken from snow. “Disco Ball” up top. It’s been a few years since they got rid of those.

 

[35 AoA]

Damn that's a cool pic!

 

[hindsight2020]

I'm not sure I ever want to do any other kind of flying again.

<-----Tell me about it.
11 out of 15 years doing tac/acro/form instruction for a living, and counting. The job fits me like a glove. Took 4 frustrating years to attain escape velocity and make my way into that niche, but it's been worth it.

I can't make deek for money in the .civ side with it. As such, I thank my lucky stars part 91 allows both (acro and form) because frankly, I'd quit flying after retirement if it didn't. It takes all kinds type of thing. I count my blessings. Enjoy it!

 

[Maxnr]

I got checked out for formation flying when I was in military flight school at Ft Rucker. This was back in the day and the standard formation was the fingertip. I recall one day we were a flight of 7 (maybe 9, don't remember.) Lead was a fellow "stud" who happened to be a former USN O-4/fighter pilot. 17 yrs svc. We were at 200' agl following a river and Ray was sticking with every little twist and turn of the river. I was #7 on the left side spaced about 100' and I was whipped around and had to make big, big control movements to stay in formation. On one occasion I was in a 45 deg bank to the right to rejoin, and noticed that the rest of the formation was in a similar turn to the left. Dove out and rejoined ok. If I told you the type, you wouldn't believe me.
By the time I got to SE Asia, the big formations were using staggered trail. Much easier for them to land in small clearings. My job was single ship missions and my formation skills decayed.
Back at Lawson Field in GA, I had a staff job that required maintaining flight currency. I made myself available to a Huey unit that was planning a night combat assault. I was a Medical Department pilot and hadn't done any formation flying since flight school. When asked, I said "Sure, I'm good with formating!" The 8 ship flight was conducted on a moonless night at 200' AGL. BTW, those Georgia pines are about 75' tall. Staggered trail with two rotor spans separation. The only thing that I volunteered for after that was as a PC jump ship pilot.

 

[Velocity173]

I got checked out for formation flying when I was in military flight school at Ft Rucker. This was back in the day and the standard formation was the fingertip. I recall one day we were a flight of 7 (maybe 9, don't remember.) Lead was a fellow "stud" who happened to be a former USN O-4/fighter pilot. 17 yrs svc. We were at 200' agl following a river and Ray was sticking with every little twist and turn of the river. I was #7 on the left side spaced about 100' and I was whipped around and had to make big, big control movements to stay in formation. On one occasion I was in a 45 deg bank to the right to rejoin, and noticed that the rest of the formation was in a similar turn to the left. Dove out and rejoined ok. If I told you the type, you wouldn't believe me.
By the time I got to SE Asia, the big formations were using staggered trail. Much easier for them to land in small clearings. My job was single ship missions and my formation skills decayed.
Back at Lawson Field in GA, I had a staff job that required maintaining flight currency. I made myself available to a Huey unit that was planning a night combat assault. I was a Medical Department pilot and hadn't done any formation flying since flight school. When asked, I said "Sure, I'm good with formating!" The 8 ship flight was conducted on a moonless night at 200' AGL. BTW, those Georgia pines are about 75' tall. Staggered trail with two rotor spans separation. The only thing that I volunteered for after that was as a PC jump ship pilot.

 

[Sluggo63]

Funny this topic came up. Just going through old photos and came across some from my time as an instructor.

Good that you’re doing a formal school for form. There’s a lot going on and a lot of contingencies that need to be talked about ahead of time.

My going upside down and pulling Gs days are long over, but I do miss going out to the practice areas in a 2-ship with your buds on a Friday afternoon to tear up the sky a little before hitting the club.

 

[Llewtrah381]

A good way to learn is to work with the Oshkosh Mass Arrival groups. The RVs, Bonanzas, Mooneys, Cessnas, and Cherokees all have groups that arrive in formation. For the Mass Arrival the formation is comparatively loose but people frequently get the bug to do more advanced stuff. Most of those groups have at least a few people “carded” by FAST or FFI - two FAA-recognized formation standards groups. Such carded people are a great way to learn more safely.

Here’s a ground track from me playing with a retired Air Force F-4 instructor, both of us in Cherokees. It’s a hoot (I flew up from the south and we rendezvoused in the air, which is why there’s a track starting at the bottom).



Do NOT try this without proper training! And “Lead” is harder than it looks, so don’t just go practice while your untrained buddy flies straight and level.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

My introduction into formation flying came in an RV-8 owned by a close friend that was retired military. He had an interesting career the included flying the F-104G and teaching in the the T-38. Learned a lot and had lots of fun.

 

[Llewtrah381]

Here’s a shot of some of the Cherokees to OSH group at one of their fall “playtime” clinics. This is MUCH closer than their standards for the arrival but shows what can be done in lowly GA planes. The shot was taken by the right-seater in #4. #2 is actually a Cheetah.

 

[Maxnr]

I recall a formation training flight back at "Mother" Rucker. TAC phase and a student flight lead. (Confidentially, a real Gomer Pyle) A big herd in a fingertip formation down low following headings, roads and rivers. There was a 500' TV tower at a turn point. Lead seems to have forgotten just how wide the airspace was that his bunch occupied. There was an instructor over head in a FW for the purpose of grading. He began screaming and melting down. He said at debrief that somebody on the inside of the turn actually passed between the tower and guy wire. That guy didn't know it, but a couple of guys in the formation confirmed it.
Years later in commercial aviation, formations were out of bounds. Period. One day we were on a hurricane evac New Orleans to Mobile KBFM. I was lead in a S-76A with 13 assorted types behind me. I briefed staggered trail, three rotor spans, 100 kts, company air to air freq and lead xpndr squawking. All other xpndrs standby. I had dual AP's and dual comm. A piece of cake. Everybody was ex military. I kicked back, hit Nav and AS hold. Passing Biloxi feet wet and I told flight to follow me to the approach freq for flight following. No problem. Same for arrival at KBFM. Meanwhile my bud was a few miles behind S of Biloxi also in an "Igor" with a dozen with him. I heard approach assign him a squawk. The controller went ape when EVERYBODY in his flight set the same code and caused a light show on his scope. How do you guys use xpndrs in formation flights?

 

[Velocity173]

I recall a formation training flight back at "Mother" Rucker. TAC phase and a student flight lead. (Confidentially, a real Gomer Pyle) A big herd in a fingertip formation down low following headings, roads and rivers. There was a 500' TV tower at a turn point. Lead seems to have forgotten just how wide the airspace was that his bunch occupied. There was an instructor over head in a FW for the purpose of grading. He began screaming and melting down. He said at debrief that somebody on the inside of the turn actually passed between the tower and guy wire. That guy didn't know it, but a couple of guys in the formation confirmed it.
Years later in commercial aviation, formations were out of bounds. Period. One day we were on a hurricane evac New Orleans to Mobile KBFM. I was lead in a S-76A with 13 assorted types behind me. I briefed staggered trail, three rotor spans, 100 kts, company air to air freq and lead xpndr squawking. All other xpndrs standby. I had dual AP's and dual comm. A piece of cake. Everybody was ex military. I kicked back, hit Nav and AS hold. Passing Biloxi feet wet and I told flight to follow me to the approach freq for flight following. No problem. Same for arrival at KBFM. Meanwhile my bud was a few miles behind S of Biloxi also in an "Igor" with a dozen with him. I heard approach assign him a squawk. The controller went ape when EVERYBODY in his flight set the same code and caused a light show on his scope. How do you guys use xpndrs in formation flights?

Standard (100 ft vertical within 1 mile) only lead squawks. Nonstandard, lead and trail. Really it depends on what ATC wants and their local procedures for formations. My facility did the above but I know others did things differently. When in doubt, everyone squawk and let ATC work it out.

 

[Timbeck2]

Here, lead carries the squawk and #4 squawks 4000

 

[Llewtrah381]

How do you guys use xpndrs in formation flights?

For “day to day” flights only Lead is supposed to squawk. With ADS-B, that’s not always as easy to comply with as one would think: many ADS-B’s, especially Garmins, will automatically go back to squawking once in the air even if you put them in Standby on the ground.

Even though that’s true, I’ve talked with several TRACONs and if we’re not getting following they don’t seem too bothered by multiple squawks. In fact, a case could be made for everyone leaving it on when not being followed: the flight with the ground track I posted above included multiple “breaks and rejoins”, where we were up to a mile apart and practiced rejoining. Better for ATC to see both of us for that, I would think. We also tend to operate at an IFR altitude so any other traffic is very likely going to be warned of us even if we’re not getting following. We’re not in cruise, obviously.

For the OSH mass arrivals they want only Lead and Tail squawking (discrete codes they give us). Those formations are most definitely “non-standard”: Tail is most definitely more than a mile in trail of Lead. And while they prefer everyone else to have their ADS-B off, they haven’t fussed when other people in the flight leave them on.

ADS-B is awesome when doing a rendezvous like my post above.

Squawking 4000 is a military thing and we don’t do that.

 

[Ed Haywood]

We were under (but not in) Class B Tampa flying rejoins with both of us squawking ADS-B. I suppose that is the legal thing to do UNODIR, but never occurred to me that it might freak out ATC to see traffic converging like that.

 

[iamtheari]

We were under (but not in) Class B Tampa flying rejoins with both of us squawking ADS-B. I suppose that is the legal thing to do UNODIR, but never occurred to me that it might freak out ATC to see traffic converging like that.

Probably more annoy than freak out, like terrain warnings when landing on someone’s farm strip.

 

[Llewtrah381]

We were under (but not in) Class B Tampa flying rejoins with both of us squawking ADS-B. I suppose that is the legal thing to do UNODIR, but never occurred to me that it might freak out ATC to see traffic converging like that.

That makes perfect sense to me for that situation. I suspect the guidance re only one squawking more or less assumes the formation is en route, which is to say the aircraft are all moving in the same direction and at the same speed, even to include lazy 8’s. I wouldn’t be surprised if the authors didn’t actually consider breaks and rejoins when making that rule.

I guess it’s conceivable you could get contacted about it because they can see your N number via ADS-B. Seems to me the rationale for everyone squawking under a Class B would suffice. Besides, and I’m no expert, but it sure seems like the 30-mile transponder ring takes precedence over the only-Lead-squawks rule.

 

[Velocity173]

We were under (but not in) Class B Tampa flying rejoins with both of us squawking ADS-B. I suppose that is the legal thing to do UNODIR, but never occurred to me that it might freak out ATC to see traffic converging like that.

If you weren’t getting flight following they definitely won’t care about a couple 1200 codes flying around in close proximity to one another. You’d be nothing more than a traffic call for their VFRs and IFRs they are talking to. “Cessna 345, multiple targets observed maneuvering in the vicinity of XYZ.”

Obviously in a flight it’s each pilot’s responsibility for seperation, even during transition to / from break up / rejoin. Requesting breaking out of the formation and rejoins under FF they’ll take notice of. This is because most likely they’ll need to assign a separate squawk and will now need to issue traffic each individual aircraft. Even then, if you’re VFR, it’s not that big of a deal to them. Most likely no separation is being applied to your formation and other aircraft. IFR break ups and rejoins are a whole different ballgame. ATC has to issue instructions to affect approved separation (generally 3 miles / 1,000ft). “Blade 12 detach the flight, fly heading 120, descend and maintain 3,000, when able squawk 4511.” IFR formations are for the most part, a military thing though.

In recent years ATC has gotten better guidance on how to handle formations. In the past it used to be facility directives, SOPs and LOAs with military and ATC. Phraseology still varies from facility to facility though. Squawks are pretty standardized. The whole “standby” procedure is to 1) reduce ring around or beacon interference, 2) reduce target overlap and 3) reduce conflict alerts or “bad CA CA.”

 

[Maxnr]

Just wondering what a "non standard" formation is. Guess it's a bunch of aircraft heading in the same direction on the same day.

 

[Velocity173]

Just wondering what a "non standard" formation is. Guess it's a bunch of aircraft heading in the same direction on the same day.

Like flying an extended “free cruise” or “combat cruise” in the Army. You’re all over the place from the left 90 abeam to the right. Maybe over a mile or greater than 100 ft vertical. Fighters do it a lot when departing as flights of 4 or more. Can be a real pain to separate on radar because they take up such a large chunk of airspace. That’s why the controller either assigns codes to all aircraft or just a non discrete to trail. Helps keep track of who’s who.

 

[35 AoA]

What velocity said. For a 4 ship/division takeoff, the last couple jets will typically be "non-standard" for a minute or two until they can play catch up, owing to a staggered/interval takeoff. Other times I've used it are long transits in class A where we are going to be going through some weather. Much better to request a block altitude and give everyone their own deconflicted mini altitude within that block than it is to make 3 jets fly close formation for 30 minutes or an hour or whatever it may be until you can find some clear air again.

 

[hindsight2020]

Other times I've used it are long transits in class A where we are going to be going through some weather. Much better to request a block altitude and give everyone their own deconflicted mini altitude within that block than it is to make 3 jets fly close formation for 30 minutes or an hour or whatever it may be until you can find some clear air again.

Pfffft...

biggest cluster---- I've ever seen were 4 TACAIR (we call them grey jets) dudes try to do a wall rejoin. Holy Mary in a homeless shelter I thought I was back teaching UPT. I would be lying if there wasn't a little bit of schadenfreude in this Iron Major's heart as we unclustered that sphagetti mess. "Your entire job is just my admin" didn't age particularly well that day.

 

[Llewtrah381]

Pfffft...

biggest cluster---- I've ever seen were 4 TACAIR (we call them grey jets) dudes try to do a wall rejoin. Holy Mary in a homeless shelter I thought I was back teaching UPT. I would be lying if there wasn't a little bit of schadenfreude in this Iron Major's heart as we unclustered that sphagetti mess. "Your entire job is just my admin" didn't age particularly well that day.

Pardon my ignorance: what’s a “wall rejoin”?

 

[hindsight2020]

Pardon my ignorance: what’s a “wall rejoin”?

Pardon the tautology, but it's rejoining a 3+ ship flight from the wall formation position to the fingertip formation (close formation) position. The former in the USAF is a Tactical line abreast (LAB) formation.


There's different things each element position has to do for this to collapse quickly and safely, without members getting stripped and most importantly, hitting each other. Lots of vertical real estate is generally consumed since the T-38 cannot square the corners with pOwEr like the over-engined and fuel-fat (relative to the 38) grey jets can, so actual pilot energy management beyond "put the thing on the thing on the thing" is needed.

All limitations that make this rickety rocket a good trainer. It's just plain harder to fly well. It's also what makes it a poor follow-on fighter trainer, both in terms of modern performance relevance, pilot automation, and user interface. My 8 year old could fly the F-teens. It's the sensor, weapons employment and SA maintenance while under physiological strain that separates the wheat from the chaff, and why the 38 has historically been a cheap early colander to that accessions end.

 

[Llewtrah381]

Pardon the tautology, but it's rejoining a 3+ ship flight from the wall formation position to the fingertip formation (close formation) position. The former in the USAF is a Tactical line abreast (LAB) formation.
View attachment 96820

There's different things each element position has to do for this to collapse quickly and safely, without members getting stripped and most importantly, hitting each other. Lots of vertical real estate is generally consumed since the T-38 cannot square the corners with pOwEr like the over-engined and fuel-fat (relative to the 38) grey jets can, so actual pilot energy management beyond "put the thing on the thing on the thing" is needed.

All limitations that make this rickety rocket a good trainer. It's just plain harder to fly well. It's also what makes it a poor follow-on fighter trainer, both in terms of modern performance relevance, pilot automation, and user interface. My 8 year old could fly the F-teens. It's the sensor, weapons employment and SA maintenance while under physiological strain that separates the wheat from the chaff, and why the 38 has historically been a cheap early colander to that accessions end.

Aah - thanks. Especially with 2 on the other side of 3 and 4, that looks like it would be a challenge to do safely and quickly - certainly in a Cherokee!