Instrument approaches in an arrow

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kujo806

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kujo806
This is my first post since passing my ifr check ride. I just completed the ifr flying a fairly basic warrior. While I have quite a bit of arrow time overall, I need to transition my instrument skills to the complex arrow 3. I was wondering what power settings people use in the various phases of the approach in the arrow. Also, when do the gear and flaps come down?
 
One mile out, 20”-2300 plus a notch of flaps.
At the FAF, drop gear and slide down the gs, prop fwd.
Non precision, drop gear and power 16”, props fwd, 20” should hold MDA.

...If memory serves me...
 
The set it and forget it flight numbers...Go out and fly it, make a cheat sheet, then memorize it.
  • Straight-and-level, at high-speed and economy cruise,
  • Cruise climb,
  • Cruise descent,
  • Initial approach level (used on a transition, feeder route, or initial ATC vectors),
  • Final approach capture, or course reversal,
  • Established on final approach, tracking lateral and vertical guidance, and finally
  • Missed approach.

EDIT - I'm not saying to set it and forget as in don't stray from what you set.....God lord every approach may need a tweaking with winds, ATC requests and the like. IT'S A BASE LINE STARTING POINT FOR CONSISTENCY. :rolleyes:
 
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GMascelli said:
The set it and forget flight numbers...Go out and fly it, make a cheat sheet, then memorize it.
  • Straight-and-level, at high-speed and economy cruise,
  • Cruise climb,
  • Cruise descent,
  • Initial approach level (used on a transition, feeder route, or initial ATC vectors),
  • Final approach capture, or course reversal,
  • Established on final approach, tracking lateral and vertical guidance, and finally
  • Missed approach.
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I don't even do that. WOT on climb, cruise RPM gets set between 500 and 1000 AGL during climb. WOT on cruise above 5000. Once at the IAF, reduce throttle (if necessary) for a ball park 500 - 700fpm descent, add or reduce throttle as necessary to stay on glide slope or to hit your step down fixes, and I still don't touch the RPM. Honestly, I never look at my MP in the Comanche when flying approaches. Trim for airspeed, watch vertical airspeed, altitude and track. Gear comes down around the FAF.
 
EdFred said:
Honestly, I never look at my MP in the Comanche when flying approaches. Trim for airspeed, watch vertical airspeed, altitude and track. Gear comes down around the FAF.
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I’ve been doing similar to this as I learn the Aztec.
 
I have a lot of time including my instrument rating in a 180hp Arrow. Your model may be different. The landing gear could be extended at 150mph indicated, which was also the cruise speed. So I would cruise into the approach and put the gear down when it was time to go down: FAF, glide slope intercept, etc. Power came back to about 17” around the same time, if memory serves. Once within flap speed, I would put in one notch of flaps. Second notch on short final with runway in sight. I didn’t use the third/final notch of flaps most of the time in that plane.
 
yep. '69 arrow here. gear down 1 notch flaps right before faf (about 1 dot above gs) then reduce mp to around 16" prop forward make sure mixture rich... final gumps check basically... produces about 100mph going down... second flaps short final and it will slow down nicely...
 
kujo806 said:
This is my first post since passing my ifr check ride. I just completed the ifr flying a fairly basic warrior. While I have quite a bit of arrow time overall, I need to transition my instrument skills to the complex arrow 3. I was wondering what power settings people use in the various phases of the approach in the arrow. Also, when do the gear and flaps come down?
Click to expand...

Before flying any airplane on an instrument approach, I would recommend doing a test flight to figure out what power settings/configurations give you the desired approach speeds. Write them down on your checklist.
On the 182RG, I use 15" MP, flaps and gear up prior to the FAF. That gives me about 110 knots. After the FAF, I use 1500 RPM, gear and 20-deg flaps, which gives about 90 knots and -500 fpm.
 
There are so many small differences in planes and pilot flying styles that I'm weary of the "set X at the FAF" approach. Numbers are important, but fly the plane first and foremost.

Sometimes 18 inches is what you need, sometimes 16.. fly the plane and point it to where you want to go.. say 500-700 fpm descent, set the power as you need it

I leave the prop alone.. if I need more power for go around they all go in at once.. if I need more RPM because I goofed, or ATC kept me high, I'll notch up the prop from 2200 to 2400

I was sitting right seat in an SR20 a few weeks ago with a recent check out and we got uncomfortably slow in the downwind to base turn at Hemet.. "dude, we're slowing down!" I proclaimed as we bled off from 90 to 85 knots in the turn.. at at 70 knots I nudged the stick on my side forward and left seat finally got the power in.. the explanation was "I don't get it, they said 17 inches downwind and 15 on base" .. I don't understand that. When did manifold pressure over ride airspeed and flying the plane. They can be a good rule of thumb but I wouldn't obsess over memorizing power settings.
 
My Lance will vary 3-4" MP from solo to max gross. In it, I usually fly the approach with 1 notch of flaps at 90 knots. The setting that maintains that in level flight will give a 450'/min descent when I drop the gear at glideslope intercept with almost no adjustment. I presume an arrow will be very similar, although the range of power settings is probably smaller.
 
Tantalum said:
There are so many small differences in planes and pilot flying styles that I'm weary of the "set X at the FAF" approach. Numbers are important, but fly the plane first and foremost.

Sometimes 18 inches is what you need, sometimes 16.. fly the plane and point it to where you want to go.. say 500-700 fpm descent, set the power as you need it

I leave the prop alone.. if I need more power for go around they all go in at once.. if I need more RPM because I goofed, or ATC kept me high, I'll notch up the prop from 2200 to 2400

I was sitting right seat in an SR20 a few weeks ago with a recent check out and we got uncomfortably slow in the downwind to base turn at Hemet.. "dude, we're slowing down!" I proclaimed as we bled off from 90 to 85 knots in the turn.. at at 70 knots I nudged the stick on my side forward and left seat finally got the power in.. the explanation was "I don't get it, they said 17 inches downwind and 15 on base" .. I don't understand that. When did manifold pressure over ride airspeed and flying the plane. They can be a good rule of thumb but I wouldn't obsess over memorizing power settings.
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The "numbers" are intended as a ballpark, not, "set power and close your eyes."
 
midlifeflyer said:
The "numbers" are intended as a ballpark, not, "set power and close your eyes."
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I agree, but some people hyper focus on it at the cost of actually flying the plane well, the very thing the ballpark figures are supposed to help with
 
Good points about MP/RPM being just ballpark numbers. I think of it as somewhere to start and then make adjustments from there... I don't set and forget... but it's good to have some baseline numbers to go off of as a starting point.
 
Having owned an arrow I would suggest you go out and fly some approaches . Use different power settings and see what works and your comfortable with. Don’t forget the gear as your trying to keep the speeds right.
 
Thanks for the input. I did plan to do some hands on experimenting. I was just looking for a starting point while I waited to be re-approved for the club arrow. I should be able to try it out tomorrow. Sounds like trim and power for ~90-100knts entering the approach. Drop the gear and a notch of flaps around the FAF. I will start with that and see how it goes.
 
kujo806 said:
Thanks for the input. I did plan to do some hands on experimenting. I was just looking for a starting point while I waited to be re-approved for the club arrow. I should be able to try it out tomorrow. Sounds like trim and power for ~90-100knts entering the approach. Drop the gear and a notch of flaps around the FAF. I will start with that and see how it goes.
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I hate to toss this into the mix, but many choose to fly instrument approaches with no flaps. So that's another technique decision. Of course, if you flew your approaches in the Warrior with flaps, you will probably want to continue using that technique for consistency.

But yes, I think most will agree 90-100 KIAS while still level before the FAF, with a gear drop at the FAF (a dot before the glidepath centers on an approach with vertical guidance).

If you choose to use approach flaps, you have an additional decision when best to deploy them. Some do as part of the level slowdown, some at the same time as the gear, some delay them until later. When did you deploy them in the Warrior,
 
Tantalum said:
There are so many small differences in planes and pilot flying styles that I'm weary of the "set X at the FAF" approach. Numbers are important, but fly the plane first and foremost.

Sometimes 18 inches is what you need, sometimes 16.. fly the plane and point it to where you want to go.. say 500-700 fpm descent, set the power as you need it

I leave the prop alone.. if I need more power for go around they all go in at once.. if I need more RPM because I goofed, or ATC kept me high, I'll notch up the prop from 2200 to 2400

I was sitting right seat in an SR20 a few weeks ago with a recent check out and we got uncomfortably slow in the downwind to base turn at Hemet.. "dude, we're slowing down!" I proclaimed as we bled off from 90 to 85 knots in the turn.. at at 70 knots I nudged the stick on my side forward and left seat finally got the power in.. the explanation was "I don't get it, they said 17 inches downwind and 15 on base" .. I don't understand that. When did manifold pressure over ride airspeed and flying the plane. They can be a good rule of thumb but I wouldn't obsess over memorizing power settings.
Click to expand...

Setting the power and not paying attention to the outcome is just as bad as not having any target setting and improvising the whole way. If the airplane is giving a vastly different performance for the same power setting, there is usually a good reason for it, such as icing, wrong flap setting or gear. It is good to know why rather than throw in some extra power.
 
Tantalum said:
There are so many small differences in planes and pilot flying styles that I'm weary of the "set X at the FAF" approach. Numbers are important, but fly the plane first and foremost.

Sometimes 18 inches is what you need, sometimes 16.. fly the plane and point it to where you want to go.. say 500-700 fpm descent, set the power as you need it

I leave the prop alone.. if I need more power for go around they all go in at once.. if I need more RPM because I goofed, or ATC kept me high, I'll notch up the prop from 2200 to 2400

I was sitting right seat in an SR20 a few weeks ago with a recent check out and we got uncomfortably slow in the downwind to base turn at Hemet.. "dude, we're slowing down!" I proclaimed as we bled off from 90 to 85 knots in the turn.. at at 70 knots I nudged the stick on my side forward and left seat finally got the power in.. the explanation was "I don't get it, they said 17 inches downwind and 15 on base" .. I don't understand that. When did manifold pressure over ride airspeed and flying the plane. They can be a good rule of thumb but I wouldn't obsess over memorizing power settings.
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It's pitch and power not just power. If he let his airspeed get too slow with canned power settings that is still on him.

As far as why memorizing canned power settings, it's to give a consistent baseline. When you instruct and see a pilot use trial and error and fly the pattern differently on each lap then you will understand.
 
Makes sense. I'm not saying they're bad things. I just think sometimes people overemphasize it

And yes.. if I'm still too fast at 15 inches 3 miles out on the approach I may have missed something
 
I don't fly an arrow, but the Peter Dogan book starts with setting up settings/performance goals for six phases of IFR flight. Take a few minutes of flight time to work these out and put them down. One of my flight instructor friends (she's actually visiting this weekend) keeps a bunch of 3x5 cards with those for various aircraft she instructs in (various club planes plus ones owned personally by one of the students).

By the way, the Peter Dogan book in my opinion is the BEST text on the actual flying part of instrument training.
 
flyingron said:
By the way, the Peter Dogan book in my opinion is the BEST text on the actual flying part of instrument training.
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:yeahthat:

I used for my own instrument training 30 years ago and eventually tossed it because it had gotten so dog-eared. Last year I decided to see if I could buy one used. I was only able to find the second edition which came out after I started. Then I found the 1st edition I used. So now I have two!

I think the last edition was back in 1999, although I have heard it has been updated by the Professional Instrument Course folks for their programs.
 
Tantalum said:
Makes sense. I'm not saying they're bad things. I just think sometimes people overemphasize it
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IMO, not so much overemphasized as mis-taught. Kind of the way mnemonic checklist aids are sometimes used, where the use of the mnemonic (even one of the few good ones) becomes more important than what it represents. I actually heard a first-person gear-up story recently where my first impression was, a factor was using a modified GUMP.

Tantalum said:
And yes.. if I'm still too fast at 15 inches 3 miles out on the approach I may have missed something
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Plus, I suspect that even if you don't actively use a chart, you develop them though experience, so you in fact do use them. Every pre-solo student pilot who has incorporated 2100 RPM for 90 in a 172 on downwind, reducing tp 1500 RPM abeam the touchdown zone is using "the numbers," whether or not they get written down.
 
Thanks again for the valuable input. I went up today, and it appears 15" and about 2.5 degrees pitch up gives 90-95 knots clean and level. Just before FAF gear and one notch of flap with maybe slight power reduction give glideslope descent. This is all subject to conditions obviously, but I did some practice approaches and it seemed to work well. In the warrior I used one notch at the FAF. It is nice to be closer to landing config when you pop out, so I will try to do that in the arrow too.
 
kujo806 said:
Thanks again for the valuable input. I went up today, and it appears 15" and about 2.5 degrees pitch up gives 90-95 knots clean and level. Just before FAF gear and one notch of flap with maybe slight power reduction give glideslope descent. This is all subject to conditions obviously, but I did some practice approaches and it seemed to work well. In the warrior I used one notch at the FAF. It is nice to be closer to landing config when you pop out, so I will try to do that in the arrow too.
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No reason not to do it that way, especially if you did it that way in the Warrior.

Or without the notch of flaps. Your Arrow will slow down for a normal full flap landing just fine once you reach MDA or DA. But that's strictly a technique thing. The one thing most recommend against is more than the first notch. A real missed approach can be the busiest workload of all instrument procedures, so the less you need to reconfigure the better. "Approach flaps" generally allow for a good climb rate at a good airspeed so there's no need to rush retraction.

Btw, I did my instrument training in a 172. My CFII tried over and over again to get me to use approach flaps, but I just wouldn't. Combination brain freeze and I just didn't see the point. Now, with about 30 singles under my belt, there are only three I use flaps on approach.
 
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I’ve been reading several threads on exactly this topic and not getting any answers to the question about : In an Arrow, when and how many more notches of flap do you use to land after ensuring you have the runway in sight?

I did all my IFR training in a 172 and had no problem slowing from 90kts to 65 and then deploying whatever flaps I needed, then landing.

Im going to go out and practice approaches VFR in an Arrow. I am going to try 10° at FAF and gear down. But an Arrow lands much different than a 172. Ripping in 15 or 25° more flaps only 1-200 feet off the ground doesn’t leave a lot of room to recover if that is too much-an Arrow kind of drops out of the sky compared to a 172.

Are you Arrow pilots saying you can do that - go quickly to flaps 3 at minimums and not stall?
 
Jim Jarrett said:
I’ve been reading several threads on exactly this topic and not getting any answers to the question about : In an Arrow, when and how many more notches of flap do you use to land after ensuring you have the runway in sight?

I did all my IFR training in a 172 and had no problem slowing from 90kts to 65 and then deploying whatever flaps I needed, then landing.

Im going to go out and practice approaches VFR in an Arrow. I am going to try 10° at FAF and gear down. But an Arrow lands much different than a 172. Ripping in 15 or 25° more flaps only 1-200 feet off the ground doesn’t leave a lot of room to recover if that is too much-an Arrow kind of drops out of the sky compared to a 172.

Are you Arrow pilots saying you can do that - go quickly to flaps 3 at minimums and not stall?
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You’re worried that adding flaps will cause you to stall? Huh?
 
Jim Jarrett said:
I’ve been reading several threads on exactly this topic and not getting any answers to the question about : In an Arrow, when and how many more notches of flap do you use to land after ensuring you have the runway in sight?
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As many as I want. Typically full. Same for all the other types of singles I've done instrument approaches in with no flaps or partial flaps,

Are you Arrow pilots saying you can do that - go quickly to flaps 3 at minimums and not stall?
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To repeat...
Salty said:
You’re worried that adding flaps will cause you to stall? Huh?
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I don't understand either. Why would you stall adding flaps for landing?
 
midlifeflyer said:
As many as I want. Typically full. Same for all the other types of singles I've done instrument approaches in with no flaps or partial flaps,


To repeat...

I don't understand either. Why would you stall adding flaps for landing?
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It’s drilled into instrument students (and good pilots in general) that you want a stabilized approach to land, no large control inputs.

I discovered in a 172 that at minimums, the characteristics of the plane are such that at minimums and the runway in site, I could reduce power and add as much flap as I needed with plenty of time to set up to land.

The Arrow is different. It can turn into a brick real fast. Adding flaps and reducing power are big control inputs. That is exactly what we are told you DON’T do on a landing.

Normally for visual landing I’m at full flaps and appropriate speed well on final. Flying an approach to landing is different; one notch of flaps and 90kts is faster and cleaner so you can go missed if necessary.

So I was asking this question, looking for some clarification on how to resolve the “no large control inputs” and “how to get to landing configuration very close to the ground”.
 
You’re not putting the flaps down until you’re out of the clouds, I assume, not while still flying the approach.
 
Jim Jarrett said:
It’s drilled into instrument students (and good pilots in general) that you want a stabilized approach to land, no large control inputs.

I discovered in a 172 that at minimums, the characteristics of the plane are such that at minimums and the runway in site, I could reduce power and add as much flap as I needed with plenty of time to set up to land.

The Arrow is different. It can turn into a brick real fast. Adding flaps and reducing power are big control inputs. That is exactly what we are told you DON’T do on a landing.

Normally for visual landing I’m at full flaps and appropriate speed well on final. Flying an approach to landing is different; one notch of flaps and 90kts is faster and cleaner so you can go missed if necessary.

So I was asking this question, looking for some clarification on how to resolve the “no large control inputs” and “how to get to landing configuration very close to the ground”.
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Yeah but... If you insist on that level of stabilization, you are going to be flying instrument approaches at Vref from the time you cross the FAF. I've heard of instructors who go to that extreme and imagine they avoid anything busier that the quietest Class Ds like the plague.

I don't even use the one notch of flaps in most of the singles I fly. Certainly not in an Arrow. As I recall, in the Arrow about 17" MP will give level flight at about 90 KIAS with the gear up. Crossing the FAF, put the gear down, change nothing else, and you'll get a 400-500 FPM descent. For a non APV, maybe another inch to go down faster unless you've done a quick calculation of your approximate DCFA and find it's shallower. Breaking out, I don't recall it being a huge configuration change to add flaps - unless, of course, the pilot doesn't maintain pitch attitude and allows the airplane to nose down. Not much of a power change at all until idle for landing.
 
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You should be able to go from no flaps to full flaps at 200' (minimums) in an Arrow with no issue. If you weren't taught that, your CFII did you a great disservice.
 
Jim Jarrett said:
...But an Arrow lands much different than a 172...
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If you really think that, then I suggest more VFR time in an Arrow. I've got a couple hundred hours in both, and they are not THAT different.
 
EdFred said:
You should be able to go from no flaps to full flaps at 200' (minimums) in an Arrow with no issue. If you weren't taught that, your CFII did you a great disservice.
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I did all my IFR training in 172s.
 
Country Flier said:
If you really think that, then I suggest more VFR time in an Arrow. I've got a couple hundred hours in both, and they are not THAT different.
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Jim Jarrett said:
I did all my IFR training in 172s.
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Is this your first transition? It can take a few before we begin to recognize piston singles are alike in far more ways than they are different.
 
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