Commercial CFR 61.129 (a) (3) (iii) and (iv)

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pilotrs

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FAA CFR 61.129 (a) (3) (iii) requires a 2 hour day flight to an airport 100nm away and (iv) requires a 2 hour night flight to an airport 100nm away.

Do these have to be separate flights? or you can combine them? Fly during day to an airport 100nm away with your instructor and then fly back at night and make sure each leg is 2+ hours?

Also can both be flown simulated instrument to satisfy 61.129 (a) (3) (i) and in complex or taa for 61.129 (a) (3) (ii)
 
The section requires 20 hours instruction, the sum of each item separately is 27 hours.

No, you do not need separate flights the the day night XC.

Yes, you can fly it in an complex or TAA and do part as simulated instrument. For the instrument instruction you do have to have an instrument instructor.
 
The way I read it, you can, for example, fly the day flight late in the day, wait for legal night time conditions, then fly back to your original departure location. If the times and distances of each flight are adequate then the requirements are met.

My $0.02,
 
pilotrs said:
FAA CFR 61.129 (a) (3) (iii) requires a 2 hour day flight to an airport 100nm away and (iv) requires a 2 hour night flight to an airport 100nm away.

Do these have to be separate flights? or you can combine them? Fly during day to an airport 100nm away with your instructor and then fly back at night and make sure each leg is 2+ hours?
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This may reflect a deeper misunderstanding. A cross country flight is not defined anywhere as being a round robin, as requiring a return to the original point of departure.

So, out during the day and return at night are not a "combination" of flights. They are two separate flights. It's a great way to do those two dual flights. To make it clear, I'd log them separately and not as a single flight.

BTW, nothing in the regulation requires a 2-hour "leg."

Yes, your CFI can choose to include instrument tasks on these flights. And yes, every moment of dual you do in a complex or TAA on commercial tasks counts toward that requirement.
 
midlifeflyer said:
This may reflect a deeper misunderstanding. A cross country flight is not defined anywhere as being a round robin, as requiring a return to the original point of departure.

So, out during the day and return at night are not a "combination" of flights. They are two separate flights. It's a great way to do those two dual flights. To make it clear, I'd log them separately and not as a single flight.
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You beat me to it by a minute. I was going to ask why the OP thinks that flying from A to B isn't a "flight" in and of itself? Lots of flights are one way. I agree about logging each flight on its own line.

BTW, nothing in the regulation requires a 2-hour "leg."
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But I will quibble with this. While your statement is true about the general definition of "leg", in the OP's use of the term to mean "I have to make the day portion take 2 hours and the night portion also take 2 hours, regardless of distance as long as it's >100nm each way", it is functionally correct.

Now, to be clear, there is no requirement for a 2-hour "leg". You can hop from airport to airport to airport as long as you end up somewhere >100nm away and it takes at least 2 hours.

To the OP - like others, I routinely do this with a stop for dinner in the middle. It's normal, expected, and time-efficient.

I think what commonly causes misunderstanding on this that if you do plan a flight to somewhere 100 nm away and back, in many training airplanes this will take right about 2 hours, especially if you throw a diversion or two in there for training. So it may "seem" like it's asking for an out-and-back, but that's most definitely not the case.
 
RussR said:
But I will quibble with this. While your statement is true about the general definition of "leg", in the OP's use of the term to mean "I have to make the day portion take 2 hours and the night portion also take 2 hours, regardless of distance as long as it's >100nm each way", it is functionally correct.
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You are probably right. But not understanding definitions is a major part of general misunderstanding and, after all, we are talking about a commercial applicant not a student pilot, so I may have made an unwarranted assumption.

I think the separate flight logging is pretty much a practical necessity in this case. In a single entry, IBTW, guess you could write, "the flight from AAA to BBB took 2.1 hours and the flight from BBB to AAA took 2.3 hours" in the remarks, but putting the times in the appropriate columns with each flight (not each "leg" ;)) on a separate line is so much more efficient.
 
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100nm, 2hrs? what are you guys flying?? Are we doing 360's all the way there?
 
Wagondriver said:
100nm, 2hrs? what are you guys flying?? Are we doing 360's all the way there?
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Well, it’s “>100nm”... so 200nm would be okay too.

But a 100 nm out and back in a 172 ends up taking about 2 hours if you actually land at the other airport, and if you do any kind of diversion-type training along the way, when you include taxi time and such.

A 100 nm one way flight taking 2 hours does take a little creativity to fill the time with useful training. A common “have dinner in the middle” training flight I use to fill this requirement is 133nm, which doesn’t take near 2 hours one way in most planes either. So I will make sure we have some diverts, maybe some unusual routing, maybe swing by the Class C airport for a touch and go on the way, maybe even practice some old fashioned VOR navigation, or fly an approach to a nearby airport and go missed and pretend that our real destination is our alternate.

Stuff like that. I can always fill the time. And yes, maybe we’ll throw in a steep turn or two if they’re having problems with those. But I generally don’t have to do that.
 
Wagondriver said:
100nm, 2hrs? what are you guys flying?? Are we doing 360's all the way there?
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As said it's >100 NM, 100 is just the minimum. If you did 100 out and back, that could be around 2 hours depending on model. When I did mine years ago we did two hours out day, two hours back night. At 160 kts, we were well past 100 NM.
 
Wagondriver said:
100nm, 2hrs? what are you guys flying?? Are we doing 360's all the way there?
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I remember talking to an older pilot that delivered new cubs. He said he once departed an airport in Kansas and had to return to the same airport because the rule was to land at the nearest airport once he got down to 1/2 tank of fuel.
 
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MBDiagMan said:
The way I read it, you can, for example, fly the day flight late in the day, wait for legal night time conditions, then fly back to your original departure location. If the times and distances of each flight are adequate then the requirements are met.

My $0.02,
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yep, that's how I did it, my instructor made me plan it VFR first, after we reviewed the flight plan, he said "so, busy tonight? in a hurry to get home?", I told him "Nope, what's up?" and he asked me to tell hime the time for nautical twilight. And then he told me after looking at my flight time, we would take off and fly simulated IFR direct (but of course, I was given vectors to land at a airport off the flight path for "weather", and told to fly to a third airport under VFR to land and execute a departure.

We arrived at my original destination under VFR (after reporting my delay), we shot three VFR approaches, and then we requested a full stop and taxi to the run-up area, and take off again and immediately shoot three night landings. Then we landed and got a burger while he grilled me on emergency procedures in the aircraft I was going to fly for my solo cross-country.

After that we went into flight planning, I filed a return IFR flight plan with approaches at two airfields enroute. And of course the biggie approach on return home. Best 8 hours of instruction I ever paid for. Funnest "out & back" ever. Note, the only reason and way we could do it all was because I already had a RW Instrument ticket, so although I still needed him on board as a CFII, we only crunched it because I already knew the procedures.

Whole day cost me like $1200 between the aircraft and instruction. But invaluable.
 
The FAA is very lenient on the definition of "flight." It may be non-stop or as many stops as you want. A-B-A is not XC, but you can count it as two flights of A-B and B-A provided the other constraints (definition of XC and the specific distance requirements are met). You can also do A-B, B-C-D-E, E-A when B...E meets the requirements even though A-B and A-E doesn't.
 
Wagondriver said:
100nm, 2hrs? what are you guys flying?? Are we doing 360's all the way there?
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Expanding a bit on @RussR's comment, it's a training flight, not two buddies going for a $100 hamburger. And, of course, the 100nm is a minimum and the operative requirement is the time. Chances are the distance the flight will cover will be a wee bit different in a 152 than in a Mooney Rocket.
 
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