Raptor Aircraft

I said I thought he'd wind up in a crater and he has proven me to be quite mistaken. Even that first harumph scrum ride was concluded successfully. I have no doubt he'll achieve whatever aeronautical milestone he seeks with the thing. I find it hard to believe anyone would buy a kit or anything else without a tremendous amount of redesign.
 
OneCharlieTango said:
Yeah, maybe. But this guy started out saying he was going to do things that no previous designer had been able to do -- no one from Wittman to Rutan to Nate Puffer to Neibauer to Ted Hamilton to Van Grunsven has come close to defying physics in the way he said he was going to. And he took money from people who believed him. That kind of hubris, when it crashes, might deserve a certain amount of ridicule.

Although, looked at another way, you could say that kind of delusion deserves pity.
Click to expand...
Still does not warrant the behavior of some here.
Venture capital investment is high risk. He did not take advantage of anyone in that group. The deposit holders have received their money back last I heard.
Not saying I ever believed anything he claimed regarding his design. Just saying he hasn’t earned the hatred and disgusting behavior some have expressed here.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Still does not warrant the behavior of some here.
Venture capital investment is high risk. He did not take advantage of anyone in that group. The deposit holders have received their money back last I heard.
Not saying I ever believed anything he claimed regarding his design. Just saying he hasn’t earned the hatred and disgusting behavior some have expressed here.
Click to expand...

I certainly hold no hatred or disgust with Peter. My primary feeling is one of concern for his failure to follow proven testing methods and safety standards, and the risk he is placing himself and others with his methods. I sincerely hope he is able to walk away from this project at some point, versus the alternative.
 
Hopefully he'll fly however many hours he feels he needs to, declare victory and move on to his next project.
 
midwestpa24 said:
I certainly hold no hatred or disgust with Peter. My primary feeling is one of concern for his failure to follow proven testing methods and safety standards, and the risk he is placing himself and others with his methods. I sincerely hope he is able to walk away from this project at some point, versus the alternative.
Click to expand...
No argument here… I’m sure you can figure out what I’m talking about easy enough.
 
I'm really curious to see what the next steps are for the Raptor once Peter flies the 40 hours in Valdosta.
 
Folks, let’s remember to be respectful with the comments made. Although we may not agree with everything that’s done here, it doesn’t mean that personal attacks are acceptable.
 
SoonerAviator said:
He's living in ya'lls heads rent-free, lol.
Click to expand...
I like that.. going to use that

My last meaningful post here (I think) was feeling bad for him after his last video. I think YouTube was a fun outlet for him to document his project. The last video had a sad tone to it. Obviously this is his life at this point and it doesn't matter how "wrong" you are it's got to be sad to see your dream project fade and the finish line seem to move ever further away. There was a time his site was filled with all sorts of details and documentation, and he went much further past the "vaporware" stage than many others

I've done my fair share of questioning of his methods and found his apparent unwillingness to accept help (no, not from internet strangers, but skilled people in the trade) frustrating. I hate our old engines and am tired of the same 60 year old design.. I'd love to have a project like his succeed.. a fast, cost effective, modern pressurized plane? what's not to like? Even if he was 50% off on his targets he'd still be offering something very competitive. Honestly my biggest frustration with this thread has been some people questioning other people's questions with "how many planes have you built" or similar non value added snark. Some of his methods are obviously "non-traditional", it is fair to question that.

Anyway, I come back here from time to time to see if maybe there's a new video, maybe he's had that "ah-ha" moment and things are finally coming together. Maybe he threw a ROTAX or big Lyco/Conti in it just to at least test the plane and work out his power plant later..

This would be a sad end to a thread on this kind of tone.
 
Tantalum said:
I like that.. going to use that

My last meaningful post here (I think) was feeling bad for him after his last video. I think YouTube was a fun outlet for him to document his project. The last video had a sad tone to it. Obviously this is his life at this point and it doesn't matter how "wrong" you are it's got to be sad to see your dream project fade and the finish line seem to move ever further away. There was a time his site was filled with all sorts of details and documentation, and he went much further past the "vaporware" stage than many others

I've done my fair share of questioning of his methods and found his apparent unwillingness to accept help (no, not from internet strangers, but skilled people in the trade) frustrating. I hate our old engines and am tired of the same 60 year old design.. I'd love to have a project like his succeed.. a fast, cost effective, modern pressurized plane? what's not to like? Even if he was 50% off on his targets he'd still be offering something very competitive. Honestly my biggest frustration with this thread has been some people questioning other people's questions with "how many planes have you built" or similar non value added snark. Some of his methods are obviously "non-traditional", it is fair to question that.

Anyway, I come back here from time to time to see if maybe there's a new video, maybe he's had that "ah-ha" moment and things are finally coming together. Maybe he threw a ROTAX or big Lyco/Conti in it just to at least test the plane and work out his power plant later..

This would be a sad end to a thread on this kind of tone.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I just want to see how the saga ends.
 
Tantalum said:
Anyway, I come back here from time to time to see if maybe there's a new video, maybe he's had that "ah-ha" moment and things are finally coming together. Maybe he threw a ROTAX or big Lyco/Conti in it just to at least test the plane and work out his power plant later..
Click to expand...

A Rotax? In that pig? It would never leave the ground.
 
141 turbocharged horsepower from a 915is. Climb rate wouldn't be much worse :D
 
Make it a twin and it would outperform the current setup :eek:
 
Raptor Twin taxi tester? Would definitely never get off the ground with that much extra weight :lol:
 
Did Peter ever say what his Vy was? I would have thought he would have tried a climb at Vy to cruise…
 
jaxcessnadriver said:
Did Peter ever say what his Vy was? I would have thought he would have tried a climb at Vy to cruise…
Click to expand...
I don’t think he ever published an estimated Vy and none of the test flights he documented on YouTube seemed to include testing to determine Vx or Vy.
 
I continue to be surprised by the importance placed on performance testing of a new design with fundamental aero, propulsion, and systems issues. It's a little premature, if you ask me. Which no one did. No one here, at any rate.

Nauga,
and his test matrix
 
nauga said:
I continue to be surprised by the importance placed on performance testing of a new design with fundamental aero, propulsion, and systems issues. It's a little premature, if you ask me. Which no one did. No one here, at any rate.

Nauga,
and his test matrix
Click to expand...
Perhaps, but so is flying it hour after hour and across the country before doing either of those things.
 
Salty said:
Perhaps, but so is flying it hour after hour and across the country before doing either of those things.
Click to expand...
I don't know what he's doing on these flights, whether he's working out gripes or just burning hours...and I doubt anyone here does with any certainty. *IF* he's just burning hours I don't think that's wise, but given the issues I *do* know about, Vx, Vy, and an air data cal would be very low on my list of priorities.

I also don't believe he's flown "across the country" yet either.

Nauga,
who can't read minds
 
No need to read Peter's mind. He's said it on several occasions. He's burning hours to get to 40 and planning to fly it cross country shortly after, addressing the multitude of issues once he gets to the west coast.
 
What’s the lowest ground elevation that will encountered enroute to Cali? Maybe that’s already been discussed, but since 6k was achieved, getting closer (assuming no DA increases or downdrafts during the ferry).
 
nauga said:
I continue to be surprised by the importance placed on performance testing of a new design with fundamental aero, propulsion, and systems issues.

Nauga, matrix
and his test
Click to expand...

I remain surprised that anyone would fly this thing at all without making a concerted effort to correct the major deficiencies you listed above.

This is the problem I have with his whole (smoking whole?) effort. If this thing ends up in a crater, the knee-jerk reaction will NOT be favorable to experimental aircraft or light GA. The media and elected officials are not capable of (or interested in) recognizing the distinctions between the Raptor and EAB's or even certified light aircraft.
 
kyleb said:
If this thing ends up in a crater, the knee-jerk reaction will NOT be favorable to experimental aircraft or light GA. The media and elected officials are not capable of (or interested in) recognizing the distinctions between the Raptor and EAB's or even certified light aircraft.
Click to expand...
I think there are many egregious examples of bad decision making in the EAB world, including gross deviation from safe and standard practices to get something to market, that have gone largely unnoticed by the general aviation public. Why is this one different? Because he's been public about it? He won't be the first to fail spectacularly in the public eye.

Nauga,
who has no dog in this fight
 
nauga said:
I think there are many egregious examples of bad decision making in the EAB world, including gross deviation from safe and standard practices to get something to market, that have gone largely unnoticed by the general aviation public. Why is this one different?
Click to expand...

I think this one is different because he's been offered expert opinions on how to fix many of the airplane's problems and continues to whistle by that graveyard. Maybe other folks with similarly flawed aircraft have done the same, but not in the public eye or as in-your-face dum as this example. I'm sure plenty of *those* folks were just ignorant. Peter is fully aware of the aircraft's problems, yet hasn't really fixed any of the basic ones, and appears to have stopped trying. All he seems to be doing is flying figure 8's over the airport every few days to rack up another meaningless hour.
 
kyleb said:
Maybe other folks with similarly flawed aircraft have done the same, but not in the public eye or as in-your-face dum as this example. I'm sure plenty of *those* folks were just ignorant.
Click to expand...
I don't think we're going reach an agreement here, but I'm not going to go into details. I don't think he's going to succeed, but I don't think there will be lasting repercussions beyond those of any other experimental failing spectacularly. I also believe much of the opinion offered here is neither altruistic nor 'expert'.

Nauga,
who has seen smart people do dumb things
 
nauga said:
I don't know what he's doing on these flights, whether he's working out gripes or just burning hours...and I doubt anyone here does with any certainty. *IF* he's just burning hours I don't think that's wise, but given the issues I *do* know about, Vx, Vy, and an air data cal would be very low on my list of priorities.
Click to expand...
Yeah, Vx and Vy wouldn't be my top concern. Stall speed? That's be one of the first things I would test (and did).

231TC said:
No need to read Peter's mind. He's said it on several occasions. He's burning hours to get to 40 and planning to fly it cross country shortly after, addressing the multitude of issues once he gets to the west coast.
Click to expand...
Except he can't. He's locked to within 25nm of Valdosta unless he gets a new set of operating limitations. And I would be surprised if he got an unlimited range OL with that aircraft.
 
donjohnston said:
Except he can't. He's locked to within 25nm of Valdosta unless he gets a new set of operating limitations. And I would be surprised if he got an unlimited range OL with that aircraft.
Click to expand...

I think from an administrative standpoint, he'll be able to get his operating limits expanded for a flight to California. Apples and oranges, but i remember a major kit manufacturer which got a 10 mile wide x very long test area mapped out and approved to fly their EAB from the West coast to either Oshkosh or Snf, prior to finishing the 40 hour test period. They may have completed the fly-off enroute...
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
What’s the lowest ground elevation that will encountered enroute to Cali? Maybe that’s already been discussed, but since 6k was achieved, getting closer (assuming no DA increases or downdrafts during the ferry).
Click to expand...

He still appears to be making just early morning flights, probably taking advantage of cooler temps to assist in engine cooling. Southern Georgia is rapidly getting quite toasty, so his cool morning windows are shrinking. If he attempts his flight to California over the summer, I don’t see any way for him to avoid quite high density altitudes enroute.
 
With regard to the minimum altitude to make it across the country - as low as 6,000 gets you most of the way there, (6,500 VFR). Even at that southern tip of the Rockies, the land comes up to meet you pretty well. Essentially, following Interstate 10 will keep you as low as possible for the trip.

From Wikipedia: The highest elevation along I-10 occurs just east of Tucson, 20 miles (32 km) west of Willcox, at the mile marker 320 exit for the Amerind Foundation and Museum. The westbound lanes of I-10 briefly cross above 5,000 feet (1,500 m) above sea level.
 
kyleb said:
I think from an administrative standpoint, he'll be able to get his operating limits expanded for a flight to California. Apples and oranges, but i remember a major kit manufacturer which got a 10 mile wide x very long test area mapped out and approved to fly their EAB from the West coast to either Oshkosh or Snf, prior to finishing the 40 hour test period. They may have completed the fly-off enroute...
Click to expand...

That there was a "40 hour test period" would indicate that was an E/AB. Which this ain't. With E/R&D there is no 40 hour test period. And if you want to talk about apples and oranges, that would be exactly what comparing a new version of an RV or Lancair to this thing is.
 
donjohnston said:
That there was a "40 hour test period" would indicate that was an E/AB. Which this ain't. With E/R&D there is no 40 hour test period. And if you want to talk about apples and oranges, that would be exactly what comparing a new version of an RV or Lancair to this thing is.
Click to expand...

Right, but the point is, I think he'll be able to expand his test area. He was able to move it from N. GA to S. GA. There's no administrative reason the FAA shouldn't issue him a permit to reposition the aircraft.
 
I don't think so.

Changing the test area is significantly different than expanding the test area. Unless there is a reason for expanding the test area, I don't think it's going to happen. Testing that 250kt speed at 25,000' would be a good reason, but that's never going to happen. And the only way I see a repositioning flight being approved would be if the airplane could not be transported over roads. If he needs to reposition the plane to the west coast, the only way he's going to do that is to pull the wings off and truck it to where it needs to be since he can barely get enough altitude to make the trip anyway.
 
kyleb said:
Right, but the point is, I think he'll be able to expand his test area. He was able to move it from N. GA to S. GA. There's no administrative reason the FAA shouldn't issue him a permit to reposition the aircraft.
Click to expand...
I've certified both EAB and EX R&D and there is really no comparison in my experience. The process, the reporting requirements, and the limitations/restrictions were considerably different. I don't know what his op limits look like but I can't imagine an area that includes GA and CA would be looked at as a minor change.

Nauga,
restrained
 
His radius is currently 50 miles, not 25. Of course that won't get him much closer to the west coast, but he seems to think he'll be able to do it, so maybe he's already looked into the feasibility of getting it made legal. Or maybe he thinks it's already legal so he'll just do it without asking. I have no idea, but he has said that's the plan.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
What’s the lowest ground elevation that will encountered enroute to Cali? Maybe that’s already been discussed, but since 6k was achieved, getting closer (assuming no DA increases or downdrafts during the ferry).
Click to expand...

Lowest high point along the way is around 4300 if I remember correctly. Somewhere in New Mexico. Until he reached 6000, I was thinking maybe he'd take the Panama Canal route.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top