Night Landing loging and night flight with pax

TimRF79

TimRF79

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Houston, TX
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Tim
I understand that i can log night landings after civil twilight (aprox. 20:20 at the selected airport)
I can carry pax w/o night currency until 1 hour after sunset (sunset at some airport is 19:55, hence this means a cut-off of 20:55).
Does that mean there are 35minutes in which i can log night landings with a pax and then get night current...
 
FAR 61.57 (b) (1):
"Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, unless within the preceding 90 days that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise..."
 
This means you can log a night flight, and a night landing.
But the night landing you log does not count towards your passenger currency?
 
TimRF79 said:
This means you can log a night flight, and a night landing.
But the night landing you log does not count towards your passenger currency?
Click to expand...
If that landing was between 20:20 and 20:55, yes.

And don't forget the required takeoffs, too.
 
14CFR1.1
Night means the time between the end of evening civil twilight and the beginning of morning civil twilight, as published in the Air Almanac, converted to local time.

14CFR61.51 only says "night" as a condition.

Log the time as night flight, but the landing for currency does not count. (I'd log it as a day landing)
Where I currently am:
Sunset 20:36
Evening civil twilight 21:06

So for 30 minutes it's loggable as night, and I can carry pax without being night current, but landings don't count for currency.
 
OK, thanks for this clarification.
Follow up question, there is no notion of "flight in the traffic pattern".
Hence for legal reasons could i do a take-off, landing, stop, take-off, landing stop on one runway in one go (assuming it is long enough)?
Since a take-off is defined as wheels off the tarmac, the above could easily be done on a long runway.
 
Yeah, the flight in the traffic pattern is for certification, not currency.

If you went out to a 10k runway in a Husky, or other STOL, technically you could do all 3 in 1 pass. I'd frown upon 'cheating' that way. For me at least, it's the approach from altitude that is the sketchy part of the landing, not being over the runway. Once I cross the threshold it's not much different from day time the way I do mine.
 
and then there is this on a controlled field:
you take-off, land, upon landing the controller tells you to taxi, you taxi and then they clear you onto the runway and for take-off
you never come to a full stop, this then would mean you are NOT meeting the FAR requirement, correct?
 
EdFred said:
Yeah, the flight in the traffic pattern is for certification, not currency.

If you went out to a 10k runway in a Husky, or other STOL, technically you could do all 3 in 1 pass. I'd frown upon 'cheating' that way. For me at least, it's the approach from altitude that is the sketchy part of the landing, not being over the runway. Once I cross the threshold it's not much different from day time the way I do mine.
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not just that, take a 5k runway and any GA single engine.
take-off, land, stop, and taxi back....
Should still be legal
 
even staying in the pattern in my book is sort of cheating

night flying is a whole different ball game.. bouncing 3 times around the pattern will get you to bare minimum legal standard, but it's not the same as launching out with passengers on a 300nm night flight

current <> proficient

I don't understand the bare minimum approach (not necessarily the OP) that so many people try to do with logging.. flying 50.00001 nm.. 3 stop and go landings as close to sunset that still meets the requirements.. doing the same hold and ILS with your buddy the 180th day of your IFR currency.. doing 3 touch and go's every 89 days.. complaining that a club requires 1 hr in the past 90 days to rent

these are bare minimums. aviators should hold themselves to a higher standard
 
Daytime is the same as night time when all you do is stare at your iJunk.
 
Yeah, there’s legal and there’s safe. I like to hit two other airports full stop taxi back and then back home.
 
Tantalum said:
even staying in the pattern in my book is sort of cheating

night flying is a whole different ball game.. bouncing 3 times around the pattern will get you to bare minimum legal standard, but it's not the same as launching out with passengers on a 300nm night flight

current <> proficient

I don't understand the bare minimum approach (not necessarily the OP) that so many people try to do with logging.. flying 50.00001 nm.. 3 stop and go landings as close to sunset that still meets the requirements.. doing the same hold and ILS with your buddy the 180th day of your IFR currency.. doing 3 touch and go's every 89 days.. complaining that a club requires 1 hr in the past 90 days to rent

these are bare minimums. aviators should hold themselves to a higher standard
Click to expand...
While I fully agree with your point, the FAA may not.
For example, if i take my wife for dinner at an airport 20min flight away and then land at my home base at 65 minutes after sunset, the FAA will call it a violation.
Now we all can agree that landing at your home base after a 20 min flight in clear conditions 65min after sunset, is not really a challenge...
Especially if the runway is 4 times the required landing distance of your plane, has glideslope indicators and instrument approaches, is fully lighted...
 
TimRF79 said:
While I fully agree with your point, the FAA may not.
For example, if i take my wife for dinner at an airport 20min flight away and then land at my home base at 65 minutes after sunset, the FAA will call it a violation.
Now we all can agree that landing at your home base after a 20 min flight in clear conditions 65min after sunset, is not really a challenge...
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The point is to do it before you’re out of currency. I use it as an excuse to get a couple hours of night flight in every other month.
 
My take on night flying is it depends....

Here in the relatively flat rural midwest where most of my flying happens I don't think it's a big deal. I'm usually night current and if I'm not I'll usually end up flying home solo after dark and make the requisite takeoffs and landings when I get home just to keep it all legit. That said, if I was on my way home with passengers, out of night currency, and I wasn't going to make it home within the grace period I'd probably just continue home assuming weather wasn't a concern.

I don't really feel like I *need* night currency to safely land but basically all of my night landings are into 5000+ runways at airports in flat areas sitting inbetween cornfields. If we're talking about a short/challenging field or mountainous areas I think I'd wait for day regardless. It's also worth noting that spotting a beacon in densely populated urban area with lots of lights is significantly more difficult than it is spotting one out in farm country.
 
Tantalum said:
even staying in the pattern in my book is sort of cheating

night flying is a whole different ball game.. bouncing 3 times around the pattern will get you to bare minimum legal standard, but it's not the same as launching out with passengers on a 300nm night flight

current <> proficient

I don't understand the bare minimum approach (not necessarily the OP) that so many people try to do with logging.. flying 50.00001 nm.. 3 stop and go landings as close to sunset that still meets the requirements.. doing the same hold and ILS with your buddy the 180th day of your IFR currency.. doing 3 touch and go's every 89 days.. complaining that a club requires 1 hr in the past 90 days to rent

these are bare minimums. aviators should hold themselves to a higher standard
Click to expand...
Also proficient <> current. The fact that I haven't done 3 night landings in 90 days doesn't mean I'm not killer at them. I might have 100 night landings in the 90 days before that.
 
Tantalum said:
even staying in the pattern in my book is sort of cheating

night flying is a whole different ball game.. bouncing 3 times around the pattern will get you to bare minimum legal standard, but it's not the same as launching out with passengers on a 300nm night flight

current <> proficient

I don't understand the bare minimum approach (not necessarily the OP) that so many people try to do with logging.. flying 50.00001 nm.. 3 stop and go landings as close to sunset that still meets the requirements.. doing the same hold and ILS with your buddy the 180th day of your IFR currency.. doing 3 touch and go's every 89 days.. complaining that a club requires 1 hr in the past 90 days to rent

these are bare minimums. aviators should hold themselves to a higher standard
Click to expand...


You forgot about getting all the night currency/time in only on a clear night with a full moon!
 
I landed an airplane with 179 passengers and 6 crewmembers at night Friday night and hadn't had a night landing in the past year. Completely legal, just not under part 91.
 
It’s a nit to pick at. I don’t like the term “night current”. “Night” <> same-timeframe-as-61.57(b)1.

Depending on how you track stuff in your logbook, you might not be as ‘current’ as you think...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Larry in TN said:
I landed an airplane with 179 passengers and 6 crewmembers at night Friday night and hadn't had a night landing in the past year. Completely legal, just not under part 91.
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I know legal <> smart and current <> proficient. But having said that, can I use my work night landings (in a multi engine airplane) to be current in my Seneca? By reading 61.57, it seems like I would be legal (though perhaps not smart).

14 CFR 61.57

(b) Night takeoff and landing experience.

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, unless within the preceding 90 days that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, and—

(i) That person acted as sole manipulator of the flight controls; and

(ii) The required takeoffs and landings were performed in an aircraft of the same category, class, and type (if a type rating is required).
Click to expand...


 
And I would read that as no because I'm assuming your plane requires a type rating, whereas your Seneca does not. So I don't think the currency would pass between types even though the Seneca doesn't have a type.
 
IMO since the Seneca doesn't require a type you are legal to count your work aircraft landings for the Seneca since they are the same category and Class. However you couldn't count the Seneca's landing for your work aircraft asyour work aircraft requires a type.
 
Depends on your work aircraft. If it were a King Air 200, then it's in the same "type" group as the Seneca, multi-engine airplane, under 12,500 lbs. But a 350 becomes a type because it's over 12,500 lbs.

https://registry.faa.gov/TypeRatings/
 
jayhawk74 said:
IMO since the Seneca doesn't require a type you are legal to count your work aircraft landings for the Seneca since they are the same category and Class. However you couldn't count the Seneca's landing for your work aircraft asyour work aircraft requires a type.
Click to expand...
This is how I read it. Type not required for the Seneca, so if I have the 3 takeoffs and landings in my work airplane which is the same category (airplane) and class (multi-engine land), I'd be good. But since my work airplane requires a type, it wouldn't be backwards compatible (if it was flown Part 91).
 
Sluggo63 said:
I know legal <> smart and current <> proficient. But having said that, can I use my work night landings (in a multi engine airplane) to be current in my Seneca? By reading 61.57, it seems like I would be legal (though perhaps not smart).
Click to expand...
Sluggo63 said:
This is how I read it. Type not required for the Seneca, so if I have the 3 takeoffs and landings in my work airplane which is the same category (airplane) and class (multi-engine land), I'd be good. But since my work airplane requires a type, it wouldn't be backwards compatible (if it was flown Part 91).
Click to expand...
I agree. Any A:MEL TO/LND counts for the Seneca, only same-type counts in the jet.

I've just always thought it interesting that, under part 121, we don't track/require night currency. Three takeoffs and landings in the past 90 days and you're good day or night. Same with instrument currency. If your simulator check is current, could be as long as ten months under our AQP, you're instrument current.
 
To be current at night, land and taxi back, full stop before entering runway, then take off - repeat twice.

Not to be confused with back taxi.

Now, I'm assuming that you need to be night current regardless of VFR or IFR.
 
Sluggo63 said:
I know legal <> smart and current <> proficient. But having said that, can I use my work night landings (in a multi engine airplane) to be current in my Seneca? By reading 61.57, it seems like I would be legal (though perhaps not smart).
Click to expand...
I was just going to ask that.. can you count your 767 (or whatever) landings towards something else multi? Both are technically airplanes, both are multi engine, and both are land...

I also find it funny that I am not legal anymore to fly our club PA28 with passengers but can grab any of the multis we have. Different class, yes.. but in my opinion some of the differences from multi and single pistons are less severe than within their own class

A PA-27 and PA-28 are more similar than a C-172 and Lancair...
 
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