Flight school owners / CFIs - your thoughts

[Nsconductor]

I really don’t have a dog in this fight but wanted some opinions - and since this is POA there are plenty out there

At a local airport there is an operation that only teaches sport pilots. They have a couple of descent LSA aircraft. Word around the field from some of the old timers is that they are milking their students. I don’t know if they are milking them or not - but this is an excerpt from their website:

“We are certified by the FAA to train pilots for a Sport Pilot Certificate. We estimate that it takes about 50 hours of flight and 20 hours of ground instruction (presuming you have already taken the written test) to be ready for your Practical Test to earn a Sport Certificate, but it is entirely up to your skill and commitment to learning. We are very careful with our students, and only solo them when they can reliably demonstrate ALL skills necessary to earn a Sport Pilot license. Naturally, this means that once they solo, they are very close to the finish line. Our students also enjoy the added benefit of training in both of our very different aircraft.”

What in the heck are they teaching in 20 hours of ground after the written is complete? I get prep for the practical but 20 hours?

The two different aircraft statement - both a tricycle gear and a conventional gear airplane - switching between them. Doesn’t make sense to me.

Waiting until you are ready for the practical essentially before solo - not sure I agree with that either.

Thoughts?


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[brcase]

Hard to say. 20hours ground doesn’t seem out of line. Even if it is just 30 minutes of briefing and debriefing each flight would probably get close to that, add Pre-solo exams, Oral Test Prep I think 20 hours is pretty easy to justify over the course of the rating. The more prepared the student is when they show up the less ground time they will require, but that should be obvious.

Depending on the airplane and/or location, waiting for solo might make sense. I have done this with a few students for various reasons, but normally solo between 15-25 hours. But the hours they solo at seems to have almost zero effect on how many hours it takes to get their rating. My students consistently get their private rating at about 60-65 hours.

is this at a tower controlled airport? If yes that would add some time to a Sport Pilot training.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[Warmi]

There isn’t that much difference between Sport and Private Pilot training , a slightly longer cross country and a few more hours at night - neither of which is very consequential to the overall progress.
We are talking here primary training and you either get it ( the flying part ) or you don’t and thus require more attention and training hours - that’s regardless of the certificate you going for.

If anything I would say people going for the Sport Pilot certificate end up “milking themselves” - their training is not that much different ( on average still end up with 50-60 hours under their belt ) but end up with a certificate that is quite limited compared to the private ticket - but that’s another story ...

 

[dmspilot]

The written is a low bar and with 50 hours of flight time, pre- and post-flight briefings could easily take up 20-25 hours, so 20 hours of ground is on par. Some instructors, such as Rod Machado, argue that students do not usually receive enough ground instruction. He suggests a ratio of ground to flight of 2:1, making 20 hours actually seem too low.

 

[Nsconductor]

Thanks for the replies so far...and I agree with the ground part looking at it that way.

FYI - Pilot Controlled field.

What about not soloing until ready almost for the ride? Does that make sense?


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[DGlaeser]

For the Private, you need 10 hrs of solo, at least 5 has to be XC, so that is as close as you can get to 'almost ready for the ride'
Sport pilots only need 5 hours of solo and one XC flight, so that is a bit closer...

 

[falconkidding]

Thanks for the replies so far...and I agree with the ground part looking at it that way.

FYI - Pilot Controlled field.

What about not soloing until ready almost for the ride? Does that make sense?


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If i had a school id not solo until they were ready for everything. Instead of soloing them at 10 15 hours do 30 hours dual get them up to speed on everything they'll have more experience and you can send them off for everything the faa requires then when they do all their solo stuff. Do 3 hours test prep and off they go checkride done exactly the same time as soloing at 10 or 15 hours. Except their safer with the extra 15 hours experience.

 

[Salty]

Not soloing them means they have to pay for an instructor every time they fly. They are not learning to be PIC during those hours. I do not agree with that approach.

 

[AggieMike88]

Some instructors argue that students do not usually receive enough ground instruction.

While I have not been instructing long, I agree with this.

Several of my students feel the ground study solution they have bought into is enough and all they need. And they don’t want to pay any more money than necessary to obtain their certificate. Even if this means being unwilling to take me up on my offer to share knowledge and wisdom at a reduced cost.

Saddens me this is the attitude and it periodically this choice shows it’s negative result when the student arrives for a lesson and doesn’t have the head knowledge that fits in with the muscle skills we are about to lear/practice.

C’est la vie.

 

[Clip4]

Tell the old timers around the field the days of just teaching stick and rudder skills have long passed.

 

[brcase]

Tell the old timers around the field the days of just teaching stick and rudder skills have long passed.

I soloed at about 7 hours, but I had been reading about flying since I was old enough to look at photos in a magazine. Had been building and flying model airplanes almost as long. I also grew up driving tractors, swathers, combines, fork lifts etc. So I had a good feel for how to learn new controls and what they do. I also was flying out of an airport where I was the only one in the pattern, so didn’t need to worry about traffic or radio calls.

Now days pilots learning at the same airport need to learn traffic patterns, radio calls, pattern sequencing, typical silly things pilots might do. In addition to just flying the airplane.

Brian

 

[TommyG]

I don’t see those numbers as milking. Just because you pass the written doesn’t mean there is nothing else to learn or cover. I find that people that use the quick study guides to pass a test still have a lot to learn.

 

[write-stuff]

I agree with TommyG. There is a whole lot more to learn during ground training than just how to pass the written test. I probably spend 45 minutes on average with primary students for each training flight, and this has nothing to do with knowledge test prep. As they say, an airplane is a horrible teaching environment.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Thanks for the replies so far...and I agree with the ground part looking at it that way.

FYI - Pilot Controlled field.

What about not soloing until ready almost for the ride? Does that make sense?


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Not to me. But I’m not risk adverse and think it’s silly to require that level of knowledge and proficiency before I get out and let my students gain solo experience.

 

[John Collins]

The difference between it taking 50 hours to earn a private pilot rating verses 70 hours is that the latter pilot typically has an additional 20 hours of solo. My experience with operating part 61 and part 141 flight schools was that managing the solo time to a minimum reduces overall costs. Students are typically unwilling to practice things they are uncomfortable with when they are solo. Solo's main purpose is to build confidence. Ground training is essential in my opinion, very little new knowledge is imparted while in flight. Flight time is for demonstration and practice. Whether it is charged for or not and at what rate is a business question.

 

[ebetancourt]

Recent discussions here and elsewhere have convinced me that many pilots don't really understand basic things like lift. I'm and old timer, and 5,500 hours an 50+ years, I feel like I could learn more about almost every aspect of flying. As Rod Machado says, a cockpit is a terrible classroom.

 

[TommyG]

Recent discussions here and elsewhere have convinced me that many pilots don't really understand basic things like lift. I'm and old timer, and 5,500 hours an 50+ years, I feel like I could learn more about almost every aspect of flying. As Rod Machado says, a cockpit is a terrible classroom.

I kid you not, a pilot in my area that is PPL/Instrument had no clue what a notam was. They did not know how to convert Zulu to local time.

As a CFI at a very busy airport the level of incompetence and lack of basic knowledge is astonishing.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

The two different aircraft statement - both a tricycle gear and a conventional gear airplane - switching between them. Doesn’t make sense to me.

Why not? You could make the argument for not bothering with tricycle gear, but I suspect the insurance for solo would be lower with the tricycle.