Insurance question

benyflyguy

benyflyguy

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benyflyguy
I have only rented or been part of a club for insurance so I have no realistic expectation for insurance. Was hoping to get a ‘ballpark’ of reasonability.
was getting myself added on to my friends policy for pa32-rt-300
His policy for himself costs $2100. He has ppl (no IFR) thousands of hours and probably couple hundred in plane,

me I have 320 hours ppl with IFR cert with 30hours retract and 160 high performance and 10 in his plane with instructor. To add me onto policy is additional 3600 a year.

Hull value 140k.

should I shop around a bit or does this seem reasonable. I think once I get 100 hours in type it will drop considerably.

I know rates have gone up but I admittedly am out of touch.
 
Damn. I just added a second pilot to my Grumman Tiger policy (no IFR, 400 hrs) and it was just an extra $150 per year. Guess retractables are expensive to insure.
 
I have 850 TT and 650 in my Dakota with CPL and IR. I added my CFII who has about 1800 TT and 25 hours in Dakotas. It cost about $200 extra per year.

Is your friend with the Turbo Lance based in Reno? (He flies it to Pennsylvania often). Not sure it's him as I think he has his IR and has total time of under 1,000 hours. Not a very common plane though.
 
That seems a little high, but plausible. My 32r-300 was a little under 5000 to start. 140k hull, 250 hours, ifr, maybe 30 hp, no retract. When I got 25 hours in type, it dropped 10%. They said there's a more significant drop at 110 hours. I'm with avemco.
 
^^^ Yes. It sure has become that way. 6-place airplanes seem a much larger premium over 4-place planes for liability insurance now, compared to a few years back when the gap was not all that much. I guess they think you're going to take an entire Cub Scout troop with you when you buy the farm or something?
 
DesertNomad said:
I have 850 TT and 650 in my Dakota with CPL and IR. I added my CFII who has about 1800 TT and 25 hours in Dakotas. It cost about $200 extra per year.

Is your friend with the Turbo Lance based in Reno? (He flies it to Pennsylvania often). Not sure it's him as I think he has his IR and has total time of under 1,000 hours. Not a very common plane though.
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this is no turbo and doesn’t travel west. Must be another pa lance owner!

Jim K said:
That seems a little high, but plausible. My 32r-300 was a little under 5000 to start. 140k hull, 250 hours, ifr, maybe 30 hp, no retract. When I got 25 hours in type, it dropped 10%. They said there's a more significant drop at 110 hours. I'm with avemco.
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This quote is with aopa. I guess it’s worth asking agent why so high or what I need to do to lower as well. If that’s what it costs that what it costs. I get it that I’m a low time pilot so am at higher risk.
 
benyflyguy said:
This quote is with aopa. I guess it’s worth asking agent why so high or what I need to do to lower as well. If that’s what it costs that what it costs. I get it that I’m a low time pilot so am at higher risk.
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I got quotes from a broker that were in line with the avemco quote. The aopa affiliated company (avg?) was about a grand higher. Of course his plane, his policy, not much you can do about that.

Seems like time in type is the biggest factor, followed by total retract time.
 
I would shop around and get as many hours as possible in type. The quote is high but not unreasonable, with a total premium of 4% of hull value. When I started shopping for light twins, I only got quotes at 8% of hull value. When I asked them to quote a much more experienced pilot it approached 1.5% of hull value, which matched the last premium I paid on my Arrow when I sold it after flying it a few hundred hours.

Also, convince your friend to get his instrument rating.
 
iamtheari said:
I would shop around and get as many hours as possible in type. The quote is high but not unreasonable, with a total premium of 4% of hull value. When I started shopping for light twins, I only got quotes at 8% of hull value. When I asked them to quote a much more experienced pilot it approached 1.5% of hull value, which matched the last premium I paid on my Arrow when I sold it after flying it a few hundred hours.

Also, convince your friend to get his instrument rating.
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Lol the push for him to get his IFR very has been pushed long before i got mine. In fact the running joke amongst friends is that I would likely get mine before him. And I did. He has a few thousand hours and only takes a couple trips a year. Definitely would benefit snd make him safer but he won’t finish it. Will take a lesson here or there. But no real push. He was only paying 2100 a year for himself for insurance.
I have resigned myself that If I want to fly faster and bigger gonna pay more. Just didn’t think that much more lol. Can’t imagine if I didn’t have my IFR-has to be worth something right?
 
benyflyguy said:
I have resigned myself that If I want to fly faster and bigger gonna pay more. Just didn’t think that much more lol. Can’t imagine if I didn’t have my IFR-has to be worth something right?
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Your instrument rating may well be the reason you can even get on the insurance. I considered buying into a local PA-32R that had a few owners already when I first got my PPL, but their insurance told them that they would not write coverage if another non-instrument-rated pilot was added.

If you can’t trick your friend into getting his instrument rating, the best thing you can do is get a bunch of dual in the plane and then fly a ton of hours in it. Then at renewal time you might get more carriers quoting you and more competitive (literally) premiums.
 
Yes, that rate is insane. It appears more like an individual policy, not an add-on. Getting added-on is typically zero to a very small amount. And you should shop around. I’d be interested to see a quote from that insurer, given the same airplane and similar experience as the owner.
 
TrueCourse said:
Yes, that rate is insane. It appears more like an individual policy, not an add-on. Getting added-on is typically zero to a very small amount. And you should shop around. I’d be interested to see a quote from that insurer, given the same airplane and similar experience as the owner.
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A friend of mine looked into getting added to a retract cardinal, and was told that they price the policy based on the least experienced pilot. She was very low time and it would have cost thousands. Don't know if every company does it that way, but there doesn't seem to be too much variation in the aviation insurance market. The good news is that once benflyguy has similar time in type as his friend the additional insurance cost should become trivial.
 
To the OP, have you asked the insurer what the requirements are to be an approved pilot on this friend’s plane, rather than being in essence a policy holder? Or is that 100 hours in type you mention the actual number they gave you? Even if the requirements are high (say 25 hours in type with another insurer), it might be cheaper getting to that level with the CFI and becoming an approved pilot, than a fully insured one. One can always dream.
 
Are you working with a broker? For our 172 (I know not even close to what you are talking about) the second pilot who is currently a student (test tomorrow) is maybe 100 bucks or so more.
 
Jim K said:
A friend of mine looked into getting added to a retract cardinal, and was told that they price the policy based on the least experienced pilot. She was very low time and it would have cost thousands. Don't know if every company does it that way, but there doesn't seem to be too much variation in the aviation insurance market. The good news is that once benflyguy has similar time in type as his friend the additional insurance cost should become trivial.
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This is the norm as far as I have seen. It's why the friend who bought my Arrow could add me to his policy for $0 additional premium.
 
GRG55 said:
^^^ Yes. It sure has become that way. 6-place airplanes seem a much larger premium over 4-place planes for liability insurance now, compared to a few years back when the gap was not all that much. I guess they think you're going to take an entire Cub Scout troop with you when you buy the farm or something?
Click to expand...

It's a combination of some bad underwriting, more expensive maintenance, and increases in hull values over the past few years. They're making up for losses and you're paying twice because of the increase in airplane value - once for the the maintenance increase and again for the hull value increase.

Retracts, I'm guess there's been an abnormal number of gear up landings. Not teaching GUMPS on every primary lesson bearing rotten fruit?
 
benyflyguy said:
was getting myself added on to my friends policy for pa32-rt-300
His policy for himself costs $2100. To add me onto policy is additional 3600 a year.
Click to expand...

What in the actual ****?
 
TrueCourse said:
To the OP, have you asked the insurer what the requirements are to be an approved pilot on this friend’s plane, rather than being in essence a policy holder? Or is that 100 hours in type you mention the actual number they gave you? Even if the requirements are high (say 25 hours in type with another insurer), it might be cheaper getting to that level with the CFI and becoming an approved pilot, than a fully insured one. One can always dream.
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The quote contained that. I believe it’s 1000 hours total and 100 hours any retract and 25 hours in type
 
Maybe...just maybe, the policy is 3600 per year in total with you, and not 3600 additional. That would be closer to rates I am seeing.
 
masloki said:
Maybe...just maybe, the policy is 3600 per year in total with you, and not 3600 additional. That would be closer to rates I am seeing.
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Unfortunately no. The policy is not divided though. I’m basing thr 3600 on additional to what he paid last year. He paid 2000 last year. For me add on the total policy would be 5600
 
Clip4 said:
The insurance company is trying to tell you to purchase a non owners policy.
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Pretty much that!

Avemco quotes 150K hull, 1MM liability and 100k per-seat limit at $1,605 for that risk, if I'm reading their page correctly here: https://www.avemco.com/products/renter/Rates-and-Options. You would need to meet the owner's open pilot warranty in that scenario. It sounds like you don't, so there's the extra 2 grand.

I think I would call a different broker, quote your friend's plane as if you were intending to purchase it, and see what you, alone, get for a quote. Any quote you receive likely covers your friend also, and you could have the "hey buddy, would you switch insurers for me?" conversation with that quote in hand. I presume you would offer to pay the increased premium amount, or split the new insurance amount (making it a win for him too)

The request to add you to an existing policy is just a question posed to the current insurer. Your addition to the policy changes the risk to something his current insurer (clearly) does not want, so it should be shopped market-wide. And the only way to get that is to ask for a whole new quote. His current broker "might" do it, but I find it easier to just ask someone like Falcon to shop me a quote from scratch and not ruffle feathers.

$0.02
 
To each his own, but insuring the full hull value on a renters policy says you don’t understand what happens if there is a claim.
 
Clip4 said:
To each his own, but insuring the full hull value on a renters policy says you don’t understand what happens if there is a claim.
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Oh, yeah, fair point. It's moot since he doesn't meet the owner's OPW anyway
 
Ugh I should have signed up when I got the quote. I held off as there were some mx issues that would have delayed me flying in the plane so I figured why sign up to pay and not fly.
I reapplied and the insurer that the guys plane I’m going to fly won’t insure me until I have 500 hours TT. Damn. Now broker put out to different insurers to see what I can get.
 
I think insurance is high in general right now. I just bought a f33a, and the best quote I got was just over 4k. That is with ifr, 130 hours retract, 370 total, but no time in type. Crazier yet, they wanted another 800 a year to add my instructor who is a DPE with thousands of hours.
 
Some weird stuff going on in the insurance industry.
I was quoted $1,200.00 a year for a 1946 Aeronca 11AC. $40,000.00 hull, million per incident blah, blah. OK, It's not an expensive aircraft, but I have zero time in type (I do have a lot of tailwheel time), and I needed 2 hours with an instructor to get a 10% discount. I'm 72 years old, so I was expecting something MUCH higher.
 
I should have added insurance to my post on rising costs
 
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