A few questions on time logging as a CFI

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ReefLovin

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ReefLovin
Hello all,

I will be heading to the airlines soon and want to make sure my logbook is pristine before going. I have been working as a CFI for the past two years. I have a few questions regarding logged time.

I have a few flights with a student where he exercised duties of PIC - In my logbook I have in the remarks "Duties of PIC - "Student Name."

My questions regarding this is:
  • Am I correctly logging this in my logbook?
  • I am aware I can log PIC.. etc - but can I also log night/xc

My last question is:
  • About a year ago I was going to start training on a Piper Archer, I was mainly doing Cessna instruction. So I went up with a fellow cfi and he showed me around the plane. Can this be legally logged as dual received since he was instructing me?
Thank you!
 
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1) you can put anything you like in the remarks
2) sure, why not?
3) I don’t understand the question... you can log PIC when acting as a flight instructor, whether you were acting PIC or not
4) did he sign your logbook as CFI? If so, then it was instruction, and so yes. Otherwise it wasn’t, and so no.
 
kath said:
1) you can put anything you like in the remarks
2) sure, why not?
3) I don’t understand the question... you can log PIC when acting as a flight instructor, whether you were acting PIC or not
4) did he sign your logbook as CFI? If so, then it was instruction, and so yes. Otherwise it wasn’t, and so no.
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Regarding #3 - I am not giving dual instruction. I am a passive instructor sitting in, the student is logging duties of PIC. I am asking if the student and I can log duties of PIC as much as we want, or just a certain amount.
 
If you’re not giving instruction, you can’t log PIC. You’re basically just a passenger at that point. If you were giving instruction, you can log PIC, cross country, night, etc, and everything else that was applicable to the flight. The answer to your last question is yes. When I got checked out at the flight school I worked at, the CFI that gave me a checkout wrote in my logbook as dual received.
 
Not sure what the airlines consider 'pristine' :confused:

When the student is doing the flying (and is a rated pilot) he/she can log it as PIC, and you can log it as PIC because, as an instructor, you were ACTING as PIC. Day/Night/XC as appropriate.
If your fellow CFI is willing to endorse your logbook, you can log it as dual. Otherwise you can log it as PIC if you were doing the flying, because you are rated. The other CFI can log it as PIC because he was acting as PIC. Totally up to you.
 
jordane93 said:
If you’re not giving instruction, you can’t log PIC. You’re basically just a passenger at that point. If you were giving instruction, you can log PIC, cross country, night, etc, and everything else that was applicable to the flight. The answer to your last question is yes. When I got checked out at the flight school I worked at, the CFI that gave me a checkout wrote in my logbook as dual received.
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As an instructor, flying with a student. Cant I operate under "Duties of PIC" and still log PIC time?
 
ReefLovin said:
As an instructor, flying with a student. Cant I operate under "Duties of PIC" and still log PIC time?
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Are you giving dual to that student? If so, yes you can log PIC. Not sure what you mean by operating under Duties of PIC. If you are just sitting there, you’re a meat bag. You can’t log PIC. Give me the exact scenario so I can better understand your question.
 
DGlaeser said:
Not sure what the airlines consider 'pristine' :confused:

When the student is doing the flying (and is a rated pilot) he/she can log it as PIC, and you can log it as PIC because, as an instructor, you were ACTING as PIC.
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To pick at a well worn out nit, a CFI doesn’t log PIC because they ARE the PIC (they may very well be if both pilots agree or in obvious scenarios such as primary training), CFIs can log PIC because 61.51 says they can when they’re serving as the authorized instructor.


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ReefLovin said:
As an instructor, flying with a student. Cant I operate under "Duties of PIC" and still log PIC time?
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I don't know what "duties of PIC" you're talking about. It would be easier if you listed the regulation you're asking about.

Do you mean 14 CFR 61.51(e)(1)(iv)? If so, No. That applies "When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided -" That is for Captain training in commercial operations.

If you are acting as flight instructor then you log PIC time under 14 CFR 61.51 (e)(3):
(3) A certificated flight instructor may log pilot in command flight time for all flight time while serving as the authorized instructor in an operation if the instructor is rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft.
​
 
With all respect to the OP, should you be asking yourself why someone who is about to go to the airlines and has been a CFI for two years does not know the answer to these questions (or where to find them)?
 
ReefLovin said:
Regarding #3 - I am not giving dual instruction. I am a passive instructor sitting in, the student is logging duties of PIC. I am asking if the student and I can log duties of PIC as much as we want, or just a certain amount.
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I don't understand the "as much as we want" part.

I assume when you refer to "duties of PIC," you are referring to the ability of a commercial applicant to substitute "performing the duties of pilot in command ... with an authorized instructor on board" for solo requirements. If you are the "authorized instructor" in that role," yes you may log the time as PIC even though you are not giving instruction.

if by "as much as you want" you mean, aside from your student meeting those specific requirements, can you be nothing more than a passenger, not give any instruction, and log time sitting in "seat 23D" as an instructor to build your resume, no.
 
samiamPA said:
With all respect to the OP, should you be asking yourself why someone who is about to go to the airlines and has been a CFI for two years does not know the answer to these questions (or where to find them)?
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The logging of "PDPIC" time by both pilot and instructor has been a source of confusion despite a pretty good Chief Counsel opinion clarifying it. I wouldn't call out any pilot or instructor for asking about it.

edited to add link to interpretation
 
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midlifeflyer said:
I don't understand the "as much as we want" part.

I assume when you refer to "duties of PIC," you are referring to the ability of a commercial applicant to substitute "performing the duties of pilot in command ... with an authorized instructor on board" for solo requirements. If you are the "authorized instructor" in that role," yes you may log the time as PIC even though you are not giving instruction.

if by "as much as you want" you mean, aside from your student meeting those specific requirements, can you be nothing more than a passenger, not give any instruction, and log time sitting in "seat 23D" as an instructor to build your resume, no.
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Just what I was looking for. Thank you, I apologize for wording the question so poorly.
 
ReefLovin said:
Just what I was looking for. Thank you, I apologize for wording the question so poorly.
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btw, I have not seen an official answer to your question about the CFI logging night or cross country in the "performing the duties" situation. Personally, I think being able to log flight time necessarily means being able to log the conditions of flight because 61.51(b) says you "must" log them if you log the flight. But my take won't buy you a pack of ramen.
 
midlifeflyer said:
btw, I have not seen an official answer to your question about the CFI logging night or cross country in the "performing the duties" situation. Personally, I think being able to log flight time necessarily means being able to log the conditions of flight because 61.51(b) says you "must" log them if you log the flight. But my take won't buy you a pack of ramen.
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I agree with night just being a condition that if you're able to log you qualify it with whether it was day or night.
In the case of XC, you need to make sure you follow all the criteria in 61.1 PLUS the FAA's interpretation (Gebhart, Glenn, both from 2009). The gist is that if you're not logging the entire flight (takeoff to landing at a distant different airport), then it's not loggable as XC time.

Of course, if your assertion that the CFI dummy in the commercial 'pseudo-solo' trip is instruction, you can probably argue that the entire flight is loggable, and hence XC.
 
flyingron said:
Of course, if your assertion that the CFI dummy in the commercial 'pseudo-solo' trip is instruction, you can probably argue that the entire flight is loggable, and hence XC.
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He’s not giving instruction, he’s “serving as the authorized instructor” per 61.51.
(3) A certificated flight instructor may log pilot in command flight time for all flight time while serving as the authorized instructor in an operation if the instructor is rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft.
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(4) Ten hours of solo flight time in a single engine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a single engine airplane with an authorized instructor on board (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement under paragraph (a)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed under §61.127(b)(1) that include—
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Tarheelpilot said:
What is “duties of PIC?”
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Apparently 61.129(a)
(4) Ten hours of solo flight time in a single engine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a single engine airplane with an authorized instructor on board (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement under paragraph (a)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed under §61.127(b)(1) that include—
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Which is distinctly different from the 61.51(e)(1)(iv) quoted by @Larry in TN above (at least in the context of Part 61 training.)
 
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I figured you would have looked into these topics 1250 hours ago...or else you’re with the FAA. In that case, hunting over bait is bad form.
 
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