Turning off ADS-B on an aircraft without and engine driven electrical system.

MarkH

MarkH

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As far as I know, once it is installed ADS-B must broadcasting, but this question is a follow-up to a magazine article I read some time ago (in either Sport Aviation or AOPA).

A group of Luscombe owners based out of a Class C (I think in Georgia) were requesting the FAA allow these planes to turn off their ADS-B when they were outside of the controlled airspace much like they were allowed to turn off their transponder before the ADS-B mandate.

I am trying to find any sort of follow up on that article to see if the FAA gave an official response, but I cannot even find the original article now.

Has anyone heard anything about this in the last year or two?
 
MarkH said:
As far as I know, once it is installed ADS-B must broadcasting, but this question is a follow-up to a magazine article I read some time ago (in either Sport Aviation or AOPA).

A group of Luscombe owners based out of a Class C (I think in Georgia) were requesting the FAA allow these planes to turn off their ADS-B when they were outside of the controlled airspace much like they were allowed to turn off their transponder before the ADS-B mandate.

I am trying to find any sort of follow up on that article to see if the FAA gave an official response, but I cannot even find the original article now.

Has anyone heard anything about this in the last year or two?
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Transponders do not have to be on for any plane outside those airspace’s. But once installed, adsb does for any plane.
 
Salty said:
Transponders do not have to be on for any plane outside those airspace’s. But once installed, adsb does for any plane.
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That is what I stated, but there was a group of pilots petitioning the FAA to change that, I am looking for updates on that (or a similar) petition.
 
Are people this paranoid they think people are actively watching their every move? Are you running drugs and don't want the feds to see? Why wouldn't you want other people in the sky to know where you are? It's amazing everything you never knew was there. Half the time you never visually see traffic you know is right there. Only now you know it.
 
MarkH said:
That is what I stated, but there was a group of pilots petitioning the FAA to change that, I am looking for updates on that (or a similar) petition.
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The title of your thread is confusing since it mentions a lack of electrical system, but then talk about transponders, which wouldn’t exist in a plane without a transponder.
 
Racerx said:
Are people this paranoid they think people are actively watching their every move?
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More like these people voluntarily want to add ADS-B out, even though they aren't required to have it (even inside class C due to no engine driven electrical system) and they have limited battery capacity. Which is why they turn off the (not required) transponders.
 
This isn't about paranoia (for me at least) my current plane has ADS-B and I like it (traffic call outs on Foreflight are great).

But, I used to fly a non-electric Champ in a club, and so far that is the only plane that I miss flying the plane itself.

I have been kicking around buying a Champ or a Luscombe to restore or building a basic plane that offers a similar experience and fly as a basic flying machine with just a battery for starting and some lights if I land a little later than planned. I would like to have some of the access that a transponder/ADS-B allows (like VFR corridors through a class B, the option to land at Class C airports, or the ability to legally cross international borders). If I can turn the ADS-B/Transponder off like airplanes without engine driven electrical systems were able to before the ADS-B mandate, then I don't have to choose between my "basic flying machine" plan and access to those places, if I cannot turn it off, then I have to decide if I want to give up access or start adding to the plane.

Since I know that some pilots have already petitioned the FAA about it, I have been looking for updates, and I was hoping someone on the forum was familiar with the situation.
 
MarkH said:
A group of Luscombe owners based out of a Class C (I think in Georgia) were requesting the FAA allow these planes to turn off their ADS-B when they were outside of the controlled airspace much like they were allowed to turn off their transponder before the ADS-B mandate.
Click to expand...

Maybe they'll be afflicted by a mysterious intermittent ground on their ADS-B transponders that, in a strange coincidence, seems to happen only outside controlled airspace. ;)
 
I have adsb on one of my planes, I do not like that it is ratting me out on everywhere I go, how high I fly, how fast I go, what route I take. No amount of information about your activities is safe with the government, at some point it will be abused.
 
I remember that story. They were based inside the 30 mile ring of a bravo as I recall, and for years ran a transponder of a 12v battery, but had no generator. They'd exit the airspace and shut off the transponder, and then have plenty of battery to turn it back on when they came back in. Running adsb full time required the transponder be on, and the battery wouldn't last the whole flight.

I too would like to know what happened, as I don't remember hearing any resolution.
 
Racerx said:
Are people this paranoid they think people are actively watching their every move? Are you running drugs and don't want the feds to see? Why wouldn't you want other people in the sky to know where you are? It's amazing everything you never knew was there. Half the time you never visually see traffic you know is right there. Only now you know it.
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You bet your bottom dollar people are watching. ADPleaseSpyOnMe has become a boon for people who hate airplane noise and the airports that support them.
The number of complaints about my field has skyrocketed since it came on-line. Now they can get every "N" number, look at the FAA database, get a name, and invent a lie, call the FAA and name names.
 
Stan Cooper said:
I may be mistaken, but I don't think the OP's motive is nefarious, but simply to minimize the drain on his battery in a plane that doesn't have an engine driven generator or alternator.
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That is exactly the issue I am looking to address.
 
Shepherd said:
You bet your bottom dollar people are watching. ADPleaseSpyOnMe has become a boon for people who hate airplane noise and the airports that support them.
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I don't disagree at all but this is the world we live in. Where I work there are cameras everywhere and they remind us of that frequently. The vehicles that we drive are GPS monitored for speed, route, idle time, etc. We have to badge in & out of the buildings we enter and (because of Covid) we are temp checked at every stop which is also recorded. Obviously all our internet time is followed and highly regulated as to where one can go.

Add to this my civilian life where my computer is tracked by companies and others, my smart phone knows everywhere I go, and every time I use a card there is a trail to follow.

Privacy as I knew it growing up is gone and it ain't coming back. As the old saying goes you can run but you can't hide. More and more the ability to to know exactly where you are and what you are doing is becoming very easy. Those with devious intentions will use these means to their own advantage. If it is the government that does it well ... we get the government we deserve ...
 
Salty said:
Transponders do not have to be on for any plane outside those airspace’s. But once installed, adsb does for any plane.
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The rule includes class E airspace. About the only place you can turn your transponder off in is Class G. And there is very little of that any more.... Did they have a previous agreement with ATC for their transponders?

(c) Transponder-on operation. While in the airspace as specified in paragraph (b) of this section or in all controlled airspace, each personoperating an aircraft equipped with an operable ATC transponder maintained in accordance with § 91.413 of this part shall operate the transponder, including Mode C equipment if installed,

My solution was I installed the ADS-B/transponder with it’s own battery separate from the rest of the system. So the ADS-B/transponder will run as long as the battery will support it and then it is done. I didn’t turn it off. But I might have preferred to have it at the end of the flight as I am returning to the airport.
 
Salty said:
The title of your thread is confusing since it mentions a lack of electrical system, but then talk about transponders, which wouldn’t exist in a plane without a transponder.
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I believe the regulation is a requirement for aircraft "originally certified" with an electrical system. A lot of older models that were "originally certified" without electricity have since been converted to aftermarket generators and alternators. I think this is correct, but not 100% sure.
 
Matthew Rogers said:
I believe the regulation is a requirement for aircraft "originally certified" with an electrical system. A lot of older models that were "originally certified" without electricity have since been converted to aftermarket generators and alternators. I think this is correct, but not 100% sure.
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91.225 (e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders.

If it had an alternator at some point, you have lost the paragraph e exemption.

Note: The rules for a transponder (91-215) specify "engine-driven electrical system", the words "engine-driven" are not included in the ADS-B regulation, just to add one more level of confusion. And then there is the requirement (which I didn't look up) for the ADS-B to send the same code as the transponder which would suggest the transponder has to be on, but you can turn the transponder off on the ground of if it is in-op (exceeds the magic 24 month interval), but not the ADS-B.
 
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