Insurance airplane evaluation

[TimRF79]

Looking at a "modified" 182Q.
TT under 3k hours and recent IO-550 conversion, all new Garmin glass..

Now trying to get insurance and my broker tells me carriers can not get to the hull value of $300k.

Any ideas on more flexible insurance carriers, some that are able to factor in the value of upgrades?

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

Can you get a stated value policy? Support it with an appraisal? I got an appraisal on mine to support the seemingly ridiculous inflated but actual prices.

Have you bought? Or gonna? Does the current owner have insurance? Ask his/her agent.

 

[TimRF79]

Can you get a stated value policy? Support it with an appraisal? I got an appraisal on mine to support the seemingly ridiculous inflated but actual prices.

Have you bought? Or gonna? Does the current owner have insurance? Ask his/her agent.

Not familiar with stated value policy, what is this?
In process of buying.
Asked current owner about insurance.
Not sure what to expect from an appraisal, i assume based on your comment, they don't simply pull up VREF?

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

You say how much it’s worth and the hull value is set at that amount.

My 182 had a lot of STCs, and I then upgraded avionics after I bought it. I wanted to be sure I was not underinsured. I got it appraised to determine the proper hull value, and as proof of such.

 

[mondtster]

Support it with an appraisal? I got an appraisal on mine to support the seemingly ridiculous inflated but actual prices.

That is likely what is going to need to happen. We have one airplane that required an appraisal to get properly insured because the desired insured valuation was significantly higher than what the rest of the extremely small pool of insured aircraft of the same type was at.

Insurance underwriters are doing some strange things right now. We also tried to insure another airplane at a hull value that was significantly below fair market value for the type, age, and condition of the airplane. The underwriters wouldn't take that one on either so we elected to self insure.

 

[RussR]

A quick search of the various websites shows 182Qs in the asking price range of 72k - 172k. There is one amphibian model near $300k, but you can see why the insurers wouldn't easily agree to insuring it for 300k. Someone insures a 152 for $1 million, then the next week it just happens to get hit by a truck near the hangars...

Sure, $300k may not be as excessive as that, but I bet it's the same idea. You have to prove it's worth $300k. If you wanted to insure it for $200k, they probably wouldn't even ask any questions.

 

[TimRF79]

A quick search of the various websites shows 182Qs in the asking price range of 72k - 172k. There is one amphibian model near $300k, but you can see why the insurers wouldn't easily agree to insuring it for 300k. Someone insures a 152 for $1 million, then the next week it just happens to get hit by a truck near the hangars...

Sure, $300k may not be as excessive as that, but I bet it's the same idea. You have to prove it's worth $300k. If you wanted to insure it for $200k, they probably wouldn't even ask any questions.

Funny thing is, I went to VREF which has a too low of a 182Q starting price and speced it out.
Came to ~275k, which when adjusted the 182Q to market, landed north of $310k.

So, I did prove it...

 

[Kenny Phillips]

Funny thing is, I went to VREF which has a too low of a 182Q starting price and speced it out.
Came to ~275k, which when adjusted the 182Q to market, landed north of $310k.

So, I did prove it...

Prove that people pay $300K for a like-optioned bird and you have something. You've got nothing; insurance companies look at the real world, and then subtract a little.

 

[mondtster]

Funny thing is, I went to VREF which has a too low of a 182Q starting price and speced it out.
Came to ~275k, which when adjusted the 182Q to market, landed north of $310k.

So, I did prove it...

Apparently not to the satisfaction of the underwriter.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Unless you can get an appraiser to confirm that valuation, I don't think you're going to have luck at coverage at that level. That is basically 2x the valuation of a *really* nice 182Q. We faced this to a lesser degree after doing a bunch of upgrades to our plane several years ago. They wanted receipts for the avionics installed so that the underwriter would have the backup they need to justify the valuation. You are looking in the top 0.1% of valuations for 182s of that vintage. Someone will likely insure it for that valuation, if you can prove it, it just might cost a few hundred for a professional appraiser to "prove it".

 

[Racerx]

Apparently not to the satisfaction of the underwriter.

Underwriters are idiots. Long thread on reddit about what they've asked for. I recently refinanced. I work for my dad's company. Underwriters wanted the companies last 2 year financials to prove the company I work for wasn't at a loss. Wasn't gonna give them that. CPA wrote a letter stating I held no ownership. I refinanced again 6 months later when rates we're 2.75 and the new underwriter wouldn't accept the letter because it was dated in July. Had a verification of employment signed by my boss...my father, the president and only officer of the company of 20 people. Underwriters wouldn't take it. Ended up having the secretary sign it and that was acceptable.

 

[TimRF79]

Appreciate all the feedback,
take a way here is that there is no insurance carrier i should reach out to directly, but that I have to get an appraisal done and then work from there.

 

[mondtster]

Underwriters are idiots.

That’s a matter of opinion. The simple fact is that you’re playing by the underwriter’s rules if you can’t self insure. There aren’t a ton of insurance options willing to write aviation policies so concessions may need to be made. Especially when dealing with obscure aircraft types or requests.

Outside of aviation, if insurance is unavoidable, I’d take the minimum I can get because it is unlikely that I’m going to be made whole to my satisfaction if a claim is made.

 

[mondtster]

Appreciate all the feedback,
take a way here is that there is no insurance carrier i should reach out to directly, but that I have to get an appraisal done and then work from there.

As far as I know, the only insurance underwriter you can deal directly with is Avemco. The rest go through brokers. I’d choose a broker then have them help you navigate the system.

 

[Radar Contact]

Looking at a "modified" 182Q.
TT under 3k hours and recent IO-550 conversion, all new Garmin glass..

Now trying to get insurance and my broker tells me carriers can not get to the hull value of $300k.

Any ideas on more flexible insurance carriers, some that are able to factor in the value of upgrades?

I’ve had luck with log entries and invoices showing/proving the upgrades. That combined with a valuation showing the same has worked for me. Good luck!

 

[TimRF79]

I’ve had luck with log entries and invoices showing/proving the upgrades. That combined with a valuation showing the same has worked for me. Good luck!

Thanks, I did show the invoices, but based on broker feedback, no carrier cared...

 

[AlphaMike]

Thanks, I did show the invoices, but based on broker feedback, no carrier cared...

Ask the broker to explain how the carriers are calculating the planes value. If it doesn’t make sense you should probably get a different broker. I had no issues getting a higher hull value for my 182 just by supply my broker the invoices for all the upgrades. Just curious, other than the IO550 what’s this bad boy got? Sounds awesome!

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

The broker needs to be helping you. Don’t unilaterally spend money on an appraisal unless he thinks it will work on the underwriter.

And yeah, we need some juicy details and pics when you get it locked up.

 

[TimRF79]

The broker needs to be helping you. Don’t unilaterally spend money on an appraisal unless he thinks it will work on the underwriter.

And yeah, we need some juicy details and pics when you get it locked up.

The broker noted that the underwriter use the 'Blue Book', and she feels with an appraisal we get this done.

 

[Geosync]

As mentioned your broker is your friend. Not all underwriters are good, but most are. Most are pilots, some are mechanics. The bad ones(usually at bad companies) are getting crushed with claims due to poor underwriting(aka not underwriting, just undercutting premium to get accounts on the books). So there is a readjustment that’s happening, some are getting gun shy. Sounds like you got it ironed out though. For perspective they think like this- I insure this thing for double the blue book, this guy has a major loss that costs $275k to fix. I’m screwed because the claims guy can’t total it out which would cap the loss, and will pay more than it’s worth. So, an appraisal should solve it.

 

[weilke]

An appraiser still has to look at what the market pays for a similar plane. It's not a simple addition of how much 'you have into it'.

 

[flyingron]

Can you get a stated value policy? Support it with an appraisal? I got an appraisal on mine to support the seemingly ridiculous inflated but actual prices.

All airplane hull policies (at least all I've ever seen) are stated value policies. This is unlike typical car insurance.

 

[TimRF79]

To wrap up the story.
Talked to two appraisers and gave the job to the one where i got a better feel.
Opted for the "Desktop" appraisal which is means they look at a multi page doc about the plane filled out by a mechanic and then look at comps online.
You get a nice report, tons of pages.

Deal did not work out in the end...
Also important lesson learned, your value will increase aprox. 50cents for each dollar invested.