End of an Era

Velocity173 said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocopter_UH-72_Lakota

A lot of pilots didn’t understand the reasoning. Far more expensive to operate. No more autos to the ground. The TH-67s weren’t even that old. Think the Navy has operated their Jet Rangers since the 70s. Politics.
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That seems like a lot of helicopter for initial flight training. I agree that there was some sort of political deal/motivation. The Bell 505 would probably have been a much better choice.
 
Groundpounder said:
That seems like a lot of helicopter for initial flight training. I agree that there was some sort of political deal/motivation. The Bell 505 would probably have been a much better choice.
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That’s exactly what I was saying. The 505 would have been the perfect replacement.

Army officials stated the TH-67s were all approaching a major service life extension upgrade that would have been cost prohibitive. Bell denied that claim. What’s sounds like what happened was the Army signed a contract with Airbus for 400 + UH-72 aircraft but found out it really wasn’t being utilized much in regular units. They decided at the last minute to divert a large portion of those aircraft to Rucker for training. Part of their logic was that the Army is an all twin engine fleet (minus AH-6) and no need to train in a SE aircraft. Still, I think students are missing out on good training and the 505 would’ve fit the bill perfectly.
 
Groundpounder said:
That seems like a lot of helicopter for initial flight training. I agree that there was some sort of political deal/motivation. The Bell 505 would probably have been a much better choice.
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The military's training curriculum has always been a bit "accelerated" compared to civilian flight training. Imagine doing your private pilot in a TBM 900, then with only 200 hours going straight to a 747. That in essence is how the military does it. A 1,000 hour military pilot is highly experienced, where a 1,000 hour civilian is still trying to build time to get their first real job.
 
I remember when that was the new flight school helicopter for the Army...there were in the early 80’s TH-57 variants used by the Air Force pilots who trained at FT Rucker who received a couple of weeks of additional training from Air Force Instructors...I was always under the assumption that was one of the reasons the Army adopted the aircraft as they were already familiar with it.
 
Velocity173 said:
Think the Navy has operated their Jet Rangers since the 70s. Politics.
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The Navy got their TH-57s in the late 60s. But the final demise of the Army TH-67s is more due to the Navy retiring their -57s....then as mentioned politics on both sides. However I think there is a collective agreement everywhere that using a LUH as a TH borders on…fill in the blank.

As to the 505 as an option, it doesn’t meet the requirements on a number of levels. It’s the reason Bell submitted the 407GXi in the Navy trainer contract vs the 505. The ironic thing is once the Navy bids were released for public view the 407 had the lowest costs yet the Leo 119 won. I guess more politics at play.

The 407 would have been the more natural upgrade, same TC, OH-58 similarities, etc. and I think if it would have won the Navy contract, Rucker would have been a recipient of those 407 trainers as well. But time will tell. Perhaps the 72 is just a stop gap until the Army can get funding for their own trainer?
 
Bell206 said:
The Navy got their TH-57s in the late 60s. But the final demise of the Army TH-67s is more due to the Navy retiring their -57s....then as mentioned politics on both sides. However I think there is a collective agreement everywhere that using a LUH as a TH borders on…fill in the blank.

As to the 505 as an option, it doesn’t meet the requirements on a number of levels. It’s the reason Bell submitted the 407GXi in the Navy trainer contract vs the 505. The ironic thing is once the Navy bids were released for public view the 407 had the lowest costs yet the Leo 119 won. I guess more politics at play.

The 407 would have been the more natural upgrade, same TC, OH-58 similarities, etc. and I think if it would have won the Navy contract, Rucker would have been a recipient of those 407 trainers as well. But time will tell. Perhaps the 72 is just a stop gap until the Army can get funding for their own trainer?
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Well if not 505s then they should have just upgraded their TH-67s. That rotor system is much better for a basic trainer than the 407. The 407 is far too responsive on the controls. I would not want to do slopes with a student in a 407. Also with the low inertia rotor, I think you’d see far more hard landings from autos compared to the TH-67.

All they need is a cheap, turbine SE helicopter to teach the basics of flight. Preferably something with glass since that’s what the Army is going to. To start of with a twin, that has all the bells and whistles and you can’t do autos to the ground. Even Airbus told the German military it’s not a good initial trainer. Hopefully it will be just a stop gap but I think it’s here to stay. Too late and too expensive to go the 407/119 route with so many UH-72s purchased.
 
Velocity173 said:
Well if not 505s then they should have just upgraded their TH-67s.
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Exactly. Where the 505 wins with the L4 rotor and drive train, it losses on the airframe side for durability as some foreign operators are learning when used as a trainer.
 
weilke said:
Do they have a civilian AW certificate ?
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No. But the TH-67 is listed on the Bell 206 TCDS by serial number in the note section. Will need see if that provides a path to a standard AWC after the demil process. There are a number of people are watching this very closely.
 
Velocity173 said:
30 years of service. Probably get one cheap on the used market.

https://www.dothanfirst.com/news/lo...er-fort-rucker-retires-th-67-bell-helicopter/
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Same story a few miles south here in the Pensacola area. USN signed a contract for 130 Leonardo TH-119's. Navy is replacing 45 TH-57B primary trainers and 72 TH-57C Inst trainers. Like the TH-67, its a 206B. I guess also ripe for the picking. I recommend the Charlie model with its compressor driven air conditioner.
Along those lines, US Navy is/has replaced its T-34C Turbo Mentors with T-6's. Kinda look the same. Ones got a de-rated 400 hp PT-6, the other's got a 1,000 hp PT-6.
 
BTW, the reason the Navy doesn't do autos to the ground, only with a power recovery, is because way back when, two or three hit side ways and rolled over. Commercial operators don't hesitate to train to touchdown.
 
Bell206 said:
No. But the TH-67 is listed on the Bell 206 TCDS by serial number in the note section. Will need see if that provides a path to a standard AWC after the demil process. There are a number of people are watching this very closely.
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Sounds promising.

The first one to show up with a civilian AW certificate will cause the price for each subsequent lot to rise by a factor of 3x.
 
When I got my rating in a R22, I had a friend with a Jetranger. We were discussing autorotations. The R22 had one chance........My friend said he could auto his Jetranger down...................and had enough rotor energy left that if he didn't like the spot, lift it up again, turn it, and set it back down.
 
weilke said:
The first one to show up with a civilian AW certificate
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The civilian AWC is the easy part. Whether they will allow the TH-67 to be type certified under Bell's existing 206 TC in the standard category will be the interesting part as most other ex-military helicopters only make it to the restricted category under a separate and usually new TC.
 
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