Repair mode-c, skip ADSB out?

Johnvan

Johnvan

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I recently bought a plane with no ADSB out and a broken Narco AT 150 mode C transponder.

I have an ADSB in portable receiver so I can see a lot of traffic but I’m invisible to others.
I can easily avoid airspace that requires ADSB but I’d like to be visible to others on their receivers for added safety. A lot of my flying is in airspace with good radar coverage.
It looks like I can pull out my old Narco and have it repaired and recertified for about $300. Sure beats the $3500 for a proper ADSB out solution.
Before I blow $300 on this, I just want to confirm that I’ll be visible to other aircraft if I’m in airspace with radar coverage and mode C only? I’ll eventually get ADSB out but I’m thinking of putting it off a year or two if this solution gets me most of the way.
Thanks
 
In your shoes I'd be looking for a transponder repair or slide-in replacement, plus a uavionics tail beacon. (my airport is under a Bravo, so I use GTX327, tailbeacon, and GDL39 for in to my GPSMap696)

I did buy GTX330ES and was going to go that route, but ended up selling it and buying the tailbeacon for easier and less expensive installation. All I lost is traffic on the 430W, but that's not really much of a loss.

YMMV
 
Unless you have something else in your panel to provide position source, I think I'd look for a used GTX 327, which will probably be around the repair cost for your Narco, but be a good solid state replacement. Then throw a Sky Beacon, Tail Beacon or GDL 82 in the ship for ADS-B out sooner as opposed to later. I've been seeing a number of folks upgrading from earlier bolt on ADS-B out solutions to ADS-B in/out with a GTX 345 or GNX 375 so even used out-only options are out there.
 
Johnvan said:
I just want to confirm that I’ll be visible to other aircraft if I’m in airspace with radar coverage and mode C only?
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Well - yes, and no. Yes, because when you and the other aircraft are in radar coverage and the other aircraft has ADS-B 'in' properly configured, the ground station will tell the other aircraft about you. That works well most of the time, until of course you get into the traffic pattern of a small field, far away from radar. I would argue that this is exactly where you want to be seen by other aircraft, but to get there, you'll need ADS-B 'out'.

Nothing wrong with fixing your Mode C transponder and adding a UAT device, by the way.

- Martin
 
I you live in the styx Mode C might work. Actually, why replace the transponder at all? If you're going to be a scofflaw do it right. In for a penny in for a pound. Good luck trying to sell it though...
 
I'll vote with those that are basically saying to take the plunge and do the upgrade now. I inherited a Garmin 320A transponder and installed the EchoUAT package for ADSB out & in for less than &1500.00 but I'm experimental.

I did see where Sarasota is offering a used Garmin 327 transponder & new GDL82 unit as a package deal: https://sarasotaavionics.com/avionics/gdl82-gtx327-package

Install cost not included ...
 
why deal with a transponder replacement and a skybeacon? install cost for skybeacon, install cost for transponder, cost of both units. the simple solution is either a gtx335 or a stratus EGS. i don't understand the rush to piecemeal it. a skybeacon is 2k whats a used non cavity tube transponder running? 500 bucks? spend the 3k on a brand new transponder with adsb out, simple install be done with it. why is it pilots will alwas go the cheapest fix even if it is not the best way to go?
 
unsafervguy said:
why is it pilots will alwas go the cheapest fix even if it is not the best way to go?
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For the same reason pilots/owners go the 20 minute/$200 annual route. It's all about the Benjamins.;)
 
Lookie here... your problem is solved by a single PoA seller:
upload_2021-2-10_22-56-27.png
 
Ravioli said:
Lookie here... your problem is solved by a single PoA seller:
View attachment 93953
Click to expand...

If I had a GTX 330 I'd just make the ES upgrade to it for ADS-B Out, and eliminate the need for ancillary devices like the Skybeacon. Assuming, of course, there's a WAAS position source GPS navigator in the plane.
 
I’ll probably do the Stratus ESG in August when my annual is due. It’s a lot of money considering the fact that I don’t need to fly in any airspace where it’s required, but I do like the added safety of being visible to others.

It’ll be almost double what a budget, used, piecemeal solution would be but we plan on keeping the plane for many years.
 
Johnvan said:
I’ll probably do the Stratus ESG in August when my annual is due. It’s a lot of money considering the fact that I don’t need to fly in any airspace where it’s required, but I do like the added safety of being visible to others.
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As Martin described above, you will be visible to others most of the time without ADS-B. If the Stratus is a financial hardship right now, why not wait to purchase until it isn’t?
 
That’s a good point. I had a look at all the trips we have planned for this year and I don’t even need to deviate to avoid ADSB airspace. Might be the best compromise to get the mode C up and running and kick the ADSB can down the road a bit.
 
Martin Pauly said:
I would argue that this is exactly where you want to be seen by other aircraft,
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Rubbish. No ADSB at a small non-towered airport and your invisible?

How about: at small non-towered airports nobody should be allowed to operate ADS-B in or out devices, or iJunk, so they will focus their attention OUT THE WINDOWS where it belongs.
 
My airplane '57 172 doesn't have a transponder, ADSB or a built in radio for that matter. I don't fly in airspace that requires it. I do have ADSB in with a Stratux and use it on occasion. Would it be nice to have? Sure. Can I live without it? Sure.
 
What airspace can you fly in with a Mode-C when you don't have ADSB? Transponder isn't required if you avoid A/B/C/10k+ airspace, right? If you don't have adsb, why fix anything, just take it out.
 
bflynn said:
What airspace can you fly in with a Mode-C when you don't have ADSB? Transponder isn't required if you avoid A/B/C/10k+ airspace, right? If you don't have adsb, why fix anything, just take it out.
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None that I am aware of. But there are still some uses for a mode C such as flight following or IFR flights in airspace not requiring compliance.

Like you suggest, I’d just take the transponder out, but I can also see some of the reasoning behind wanting it to work.
 
That’s the thing, so many people are relying too much on their ADSB traffic alerts that it’s probably more unsafe now to be “invisible” than it was a decade ago when everyone was looking outside.
 
Johnvan said:
That’s the thing, so many people are relying too much on their ADSB traffic alerts that it’s probably more unsafe now to be “invisible” than it was a decade ago when everyone was looking outside.
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You're not completely "invisible". You'll still be lit up by primary radar and I think that still goes on the uplink. However, the altitude might be sent as "unknown".
 
Johnvan said:
I’ll probably do the Stratus ESG in August when my annual is due...
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The Stratus ESG is obsolete. Others have given excellent advice to get a GTX-330ES or better yet get the GTX-335. The wiring and tray is the same as the GTX-345 with ADS-B in/out. Facilitating easier upgrade later. GTX-335 is about same price as Stratus ESG.
 
Martin Pauly said:
Well - yes, and no. Yes, because when you and the other aircraft are in radar coverage and the other aircraft has ADS-B 'in' properly configured, the ground station will tell the other aircraft about you. That works well most of the time, until of course you get into the traffic pattern of a small field, far away from radar. I would argue that this is exactly where you want to be seen by other aircraft, but to get there, you'll need ADS-B 'out'.
Click to expand...
I'm more afraid of the pilots looking at their ADSB in the pattern than I am of the pilots flying around without transponders. I think the former is more likely to kill me.

To the OP, if you don't need ADSB, don't get it. Prices are only going to come down, and if you decide you want to sell in the near future, you can slap a Uvonix Tailbeacon on it with little pain.
 
Lindberg said:
I'm more afraid of the pilots looking at their ADSB in the pattern than I am of the pilots flying around without transponders. I think the former is more likely to kill me.
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You are making my point. Yes, those pilots exist, whether we like it or not. And by putting ADS-B 'out' in my plane, I can increase the odds of them spotting me. When their eyes are glued to a display that does not show my position, then all odds are off.

And then there are all the pilots like you and me who do look out the window while flying, and I have seen countless times how helpful ADS-B 'in' can be to help guide my eyes to where the traffic is.

- Martin
 
Martin Pauly said:
You are making my point. Yes, those pilots exist, whether we like it or not. And by putting ADS-B 'out' in my plane, I can increase the odds of them spotting me. When their eyes are glued to a display that does not show my position, then all odds are off.

And then there are all the pilots like you and me who do look out the window while flying, and I have seen countless times how helpful ADS-B 'in' can be to help guide my eyes to where the traffic is.
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Those pilots will not see you no matter what you do. And look at the number of mid-air collisions in patterns at tower-controlled airports and while under ATC control to see that absolutely nothing will substitute from looking outside. I regularly fly transponderless aircraft at an untowered airport, and it is for sure the guys with the doodads who I fear.
 
Lindberg said:
I regularly fly transponderless aircraft at an untowered airport, and it is for sure the guys with the doodads who I fear.
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Again, you are making my point. Yes, the other pilots (the ones with the doodads) are not looking outside enough. At the same time, you are not transmitting the one thing that would most likely get their attention. I am not saying you are at fault if there is a collision, but by flying without a transponder you are leaving a mitigation option on the table that could help.

- Martin
 
Martin Pauly said:
I am not saying you are at fault if there is a collision,
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After the collision, who is at fault may not make any difference to those in the plane. The spouses and lawyers will care though ...
 
I spent $200 to repair and recertify my mode-c. It was money well spent. Departing my small airport (ForeFlight ownship disabled for testing) I was pleased to see that I could see myself as a TIS-B target almost immediately after takeoff.

Makes flight following easier and when I overfly or underfly my local Class B I’m not a mysterious primary target for ATC.

That’s all I was looking for. I’ll wait for the TailbeaconX or something affordable with diversity antenna so I am compliant with the Canadian mandate.
 
Johnvan said:
I spent $200 to repair and recertify my mode-c. It was money well spent. Departing my small airport (ForeFlight ownship disabled for testing) I was pleased to see that I could see myself as a TIS-B target almost immediately after takeoff.

Makes flight following easier and when I overfly or underfly my local Class B I’m not a mysterious primary target for ATC.

That’s all I was looking for. I’ll wait for the TailbeaconX or something affordable with diversity antenna so I am compliant with the Canadian mandate.
Click to expand...

How can you overfly or underfly Class B without ADS-B OUT ?
 
NordicDave said:
The Stratus ESG is obsolete. Others have given excellent advice to get a GTX-330ES or better yet get the GTX-335. The wiring and tray is the same as the GTX-345 with ADS-B in/out. Facilitating easier upgrade later. GTX-335 is about same price as Stratus ESG.
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How is the Stratus ESG obsolete?
 
aftCG said:
How is the Stratus ESG obsolete?
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We have better options now. It was an early entry in the ADS-B game. The product is a one trick pony for the company for certified gear.

I’m not running the product down, its helped a lot of people. Its time has passed with other products are filling its place.
 
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I was in a similar spot- I went Appereo stratus esg transponder and a 3i for in. About $4k- but if you aren’t in need of driving anything on the panel- it’s a hellova bargain for out and in... there’s a rebate w them right now and ya can sell your portable in unit.
 
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Martin Pauly said:
You are making my point. Yes, those pilots exist, whether we like it or not. And by putting ADS-B 'out' in my plane, I can increase the odds of them spotting me. When their eyes are glued to a display that does not show my position, then all odds are off.

And then there are all the pilots like you and me who do look out the window while flying, and I have seen countless times how helpful ADS-B 'in' can be to help guide my eyes to where the traffic is.

- Martin
Click to expand...

And I'll chime in by saying the only time my ATAS has blared was when entering downwind at my local airport. I immediately visually acquired a C-172, not using CTAF to announce their position, head-on at the same altitude in the direction indicated by ADS-B, Would I have spotted the plane? Possibly. But the aural warning and a heads-up on the display made visual acquisition and the correct course correction easy. No harm, no foul. But when the ATAS warning goes off, you are REALLY close.

While a SkyBeacon or Tailbeacon is the least expensive way to get ADS-B out, you still need a transponder. At some point, maybe it's just time to get a modern, solid-state transponder with ADS-B out and then you are done, with fewer worries about safety, utility, maintenance, and resale value.

When the deadline for ADS-B equipage neared, I decided not to invest my future in an AT-50A transponder and bit the bullet and installed an NGT-9000. I got an outstanding price at the time, but there are somewhat cheaper options as has been already pointed out. I do fly IFR and through and around Class B or C airspace, so it's kinda necessary anyway. Getting FIS-B weather on the panel display and my EFB as well is a big bonus. Plus there is not clutter of portable device wires all over the cockpit. Just a very neat USB charging cable for the EFB and/or my phone.
 
NordicDave said:
We have better options now. It was an early entry in the ADS-B game. The product is a one trick pony for the company for certified gear.

I’m not running the product down, its helped a lot of people. Its time has passed with other products are filling its place.
Click to expand...
I was on a trip and typing with my thumb, but I have to come back to this now. I guess there's a difference between the ESG and the ESGi. I installed two ESGi units in two different planes in early 2020. Flawless performance from both and easy to install/configure.

Now that I'm building an experimental plane I of course had to circle back and evaluate what is out there.

The ESGi is hands down the cheapest solution for brand new ADS-B in and out. $3k-ish and includes AHARS. For those of us with legacy Heinz 57 instrument panels that aren't about to throw down for a complete Garmin panel (because Garmin devices integrate very well with, well, Garmin devices) the Stratus is anything but obsolete.

If you doubt me and think the Garmin 345 is just a bit more then I'll wait right here while you quote the 345 and all the other bits to make it work. For example AHARS (which is admittedly not required for ADSB in/out) is an extra $1k.

The ESGi installs with one GPS antenna, plus your existing transponder antenna. The ugly blob gets mounted under your panel with no need to see the sky, no issue under a metal glare shield. For fans of Foreflight it sets up via wifi so easily even those with one eyebrow can handle it. I'm not a fan of apple so my device required one more step.
 
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