Commercial licenses : ICAO and FAA

airprince

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airprince
International Civil Aviation Organization and Federal Aviation Authority, What is the difference between licenses issued from here or there? Can we use anyone of the two licenses anywhere in the world?
 
International Civil Aviation Organization and Federal Aviation Authority, What is the difference between licenses issued from here or there? Can we use anyone of the two licenses anywhere in the world?

I'm sure there will be more knowledgable answers to your question, but it appears that you can get an FAA certificate based on your ICAO certificate:

http://www.sunstateaviation.com/forpilot.html
 
I'm sure there will be more knowledgable answers to your question, but it appears that you can get an FAA certificate based on your ICAO certificate:

http://www.sunstateaviation.com/forpilot.html
Thank you, I see that this website is talking about how to convert from ICAO to FAA license, but what i want to make is to open a discussion about the exact differences between both, let's start on the requirements for example, flying hours, training, night time, medical issues, what ever you know is different :)
 
Where is the country of ICAO located and when did they start issuing licenses? I can't find it on my map.
ICAO is not related to a country, it is a part of the United Nations organization, located in Montreal, Canada. It is the only authority in the world controlling the civil aviation , except the United States which have the FAA. it has many branches around the world to issue licenses, print books and maps (for example Countries IP books, annexes regarding rules of the air, medical stuff and more).
 
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ICAO is not related to a country, it is a part of the United Nations organization, located in Montreal, Canada. It is the only authority in the world controlling the civil aviation , except the United States which have the FAA.
Many countries have their own aviation regulatory authority. It is not just the US. But they all try and follow the ICAO guidelines as must follow ICAO for international flights.

The ICAO is not the only other authority on the planet other than the FAA. Britian has the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA), France has the Generale De L'Aviation Civile, India has the Ministry of Civil Aviation, etc
 
Many countries have their own aviation regulatory authority. It is not just the US. But they all try and follow the ICAO guidelines as must follow ICAO for international flights.
That is right, but only under the ICAO rules. For example each country make the Airports, classification is conducted by ICAO, a country can not change the rules for getting a private pilot license for example, a country decide its Prohibited areas and Danger areas, and send that to ICAO to declare that in the Country IP.
 
Many countries have their own aviation regulatory authority. It is not just the US. But they all try and follow the ICAO guidelines as must follow ICAO for international flights.

The ICAO is not the only other authority on the planet other than the FAA. Britian has the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA), France has the Generale De L'Aviation Civile, India has the Ministry of Civil Aviation, etc
For the most part I agree with you.

My understanding is that the ICAO establishes standards that countries may choose to implement when they create their certificates. ICAO doesn't certificate anyone; that's a governmental function. Having the set of standards, however, makes it easier for one country to allow pilots holding a certificate granted by another country to qualify. This is how I was able to take my US certificate, go to New Zealand, and with nothing more than a check ride with a New Zealand designated examiner receive a New Zealand certificate from the CAA (their equivalent of the FAA).

The part where I disagree is where you call the ICAO an "authority." They are an organization, but not an authority, as far as I know. The other examples you give, however, are authorities (in their respective countries, of course).

Edit: Having said that, I missed your point:
ICAO is not related to a country, it is a part of the United Nations organization, located in Montreal, Canada. It is the only authority in the world controlling the civil aviation , except the United States which have the FAA. it has many branches around the world to issue licenses, print books and maps (for example Countries IP books, annexes regarding rules of the air, medical stuff and more).
I was unaware that ICAO was able to issue certificates themselves. I thought that their "regulation" of international travel was a function of the member countries agreeing by treaty to abide by the rules they set.


(BTW airprince, I wanted to acknowledge the improved quality of your written English!)
 
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The part where I disagree is where you call the ICAO an "authority." They are an organization, but not an authority, as far as I know.
The ICAO is part of the UN and to be a member of the ICAO an administration aka country must sign treaties to abide by the rules of the ICAO for any flights to and from their country. Therefore they are an authority. The ICAO is to aviation as the ITU is to communication in that they provide for the minimum standards.

Just a couple of months ago you heard about all the ruckus to get 'English proficient' on your pilot certificate if you wanted to use it outside of the US. That was an ICAO requirement. If you never fly outside of the US no reason to update your certificate.
 
Something tells me there's an undertone of some sort to this thread....but I'll play along.

The big difference, IMHO, is that the FAA is American, and the ICAO is international, and we don't need ICAO coming in to tell us how to run our airspace or dictate how we fly our planes to our airports.

Technically, since we are the majority funder of the UN, we should be dictating to the ICAO how it should work.
 
The big difference, IMHO, is that the FAA is American, and the ICAO is international, and we don't need ICAO coming in to tell us how to run our airspace or dictate how we fly our planes to our airports.
They don't do that. They deal with the international aspect of aviation. That is ensuring that when you look at a certification from one coutnry you know how to match it up to your own. In the area of airspace they make recommendations. Even though you are familiar with Class a,b,c,d,e,g airspace in the US when you go to another country they may use it differently. For instance we use class above 18,000' while in the UK class surrounds some of the larger airports such as Heathrow. It is still Class A and all the rules you know about class are in effect it just happens to touch the ground. For airspace the ICAO has specified a buffet of types that each administration may use in the way that works best int heir country.
 
and we don't need ICAO coming in to tell us how to run our airspace or dictate how we fly our planes to our airports.

Technically, since we are the majority funder of the UN, we should be dictating to the ICAO how it should work.
ICAO is not made for local flying inside countries, it is for making regulations in the civil aviation in the whole world, you want to fly to China.. for example..
 
I was unaware that ICAO was able to issue certificates themselves. I thought that their "regulation" of international travel was a function of the member countries agreeing by treaty to abide by the rules they set.

You are correct. From ICAO's own FAQ:

http://www.icao.int/icao/en/trivia/peltrgFAQ.htm#11

ICAO does not issue any licences. Licences issued by ICAO Contracting States on the basis of Standards and Recommended Practices of Annex 1 – Personnel Licensing, are habitually called ICAO licences. This has led many to believe that there is a specific ICAO or international licence. The fact is that there is not one single international licence issued by ICAO or any other organization. States issue their own licences based on national regulations in conformity with Annex 1 specifications and validate licences issued by other Contracting States on the basis of bilateral or multilateral agreements or the fulfilment of nationally legislated requirements.
 
They don't do that. They deal with the international aspect of aviation.

Bingo. Thus the "I" for International in their name.

Wiki said:
The International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), an agency of the United Nations, codifies the principles and techniques of international air navigation and fosters the planning and development of international air transport to ensure safe and orderly growth. Its headquarters are located in the Quartier International of Montreal, Canada.

The ICAO Council adopts standards and recommended practices concerning air navigation, prevention of unlawful interference, and facilitation of border-crossing procedures for international civil aviation. In addition, the ICAO defines the protocols for air accident investigation followed by transport safety authorities in countries signatory to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, commonly known as the Chicago Convention. See NTSB, TSB, AAIB, BFU, and BEA.
 
Thank you, I see that this website is talking about how to convert from ICAO to FAA license, but what i want to make is to open a discussion about the exact differences between both, let's start on the requirements for example, flying hours, training, night time, medical issues, what ever you know is different :)

Since ICAO doesn't issue licenses, how would we compare these factors? Do you want to compare a specific country's requirements with the FAA's?
 
Hmm, ok then, correct my understanding if I'm wrong:

ICAO is an organization that sets rules for intercountry flight.
ICAO gives suggestions to countries about defining airspace
ICAO issues certificates to airmen (in every country but the USA)
ICAO is run by the United Nations

Am I right so far?
 
Since ICAO doesn't issue licenses, how would we compare these factors? Do you want to compare a specific country's requirements with the FAA's?
My commercial pilot license issued in Egypt, ICAO office in egypt is the office for the Middle East, ( http://www.icao.int/mid/) it has a blue cover ( the license ), that is the standard for this license anywhere, They give approval for a school or authority to teach and examine, but they issue based on that teaching and exams which made according to the requirements ICAO decided in annexes. I mean they give the authority to a certain place to issue based on all of that.
So the discussion is about the requirements for ICAO license and FAA license, that is more precise :)
 
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this is from ICAO FAQ :
"Licences that do not meet ICAO requirements are not recognized internationally and are therefore valid only in the airspace of the State that has issued such a licence. The use of the licence in other States is only possible if the State whose airspace is used, has authorized it."
Based on that, the FAA licences must meet ICAO requirements, but I believe it is more, that is what I'm trying to find ..
 
Hmm, ok then, correct my understanding if I'm wrong:

ICAO is an organization that sets rules for intercountry flight.
ICAO gives suggestions to countries about defining airspace
ICAO issues certificates to airmen (in every country but the USA)
ICAO is run by the United Nations

Am I right so far?
The complete answer is take a look at this http://www.icao.int/icao/en/trivia/faq.htm
just read the FAQ quistions not the answers.. you will get the main idea :)
 
this is from ICAO FAQ :
"Licences that do not meet ICAO requirements are not recognized internationally and are therefore valid only in the airspace of the State that has issued such a licence. The use of the licence in other States is only possible if the State whose airspace is used, has authorized it."
Based on that, the FAA licences must meet ICAO requirements, but I believe it is more, that is what I'm trying to find ..
Here is more from the ICAO FAQ.

Does my licence meet ICAO requirements?
Some States include a statement on the licence specifying that the licence meets the requirement of ICAO Annex 1 to the Chicago Convention. When it is not the case, licence holders may verify with the Civil Aviation Authorities in their respective States whether their licence is in compliance with ICAO requirements. Each individual Contracting State should have the information available as they have the duty to inform ICAO of any difference between ICAO licensing Standards and their national/regional regulations. Any information in this matter submitted by Contracting States to ICAO is contained on the Supplement to Annex 1.
Non-ICAO compliant licence
1. An endorsement with a "Licence does not meet ICAO requirements" statement may appear on a licence in two different situations:
  1. the licence covers an activity for which no ICAO licensing requirements exist. Typical examples are microlight or recreational pilot licences; or
  2. the licence covers an activity for which ICAO has established licensing requirements but the holder does not meet all conditions related to age, knowledge, experience, instruction, skill and medical fitness.
2. Licences that do not meet ICAO requirements are not recognized internationally and are therefore valid only in the airspace of the State that has issued such a licence. The use of the licence in other States is only possible if the State whose airspace is used, has authorized it.
US pilot's certificates are ICAO compliant, which as I understand it, means that if you hold a US pilot's certificate you can fly a US registered (N-numbered) airplane in other ICAO countries. However, that doesn't mean you can automatically go out and fly an airplane registered in another country, say an Egyptian registered airplane, just because Egypt is a member of ICAO. You would need to abide by whatever requirements Egypt sets for flying airplanes registered in that country.
 
ICAO is not related to a country, it is a part of the United Nations organization, located in Montreal, Canada. It is the only authority in the world controlling the civil aviation , except the United States which have the FAA. it has many branches around the world to issue licenses, print books and maps (for example Countries IP books, annexes regarding rules of the air, medical stuff and more).


Wow! I never knew that! I guess someone should inform Germany, England, Australia.....
 
Hmm, ok then, correct my understanding if I'm wrong:

ICAO is an organization that sets rules for intercountry flight.
ICAO gives suggestions to countries about defining airspace
ICAO issues certificates to airmen (in every country but the USA)
ICAO is run by the United Nations

Am I right so far?

Incorrect, the ICAO issues Nothing to airmen. They set a minum training standard for various ratings which member states have to meet in order to have their licensing accepted by the ICAO, which will give that airman the priviledges of his rating in other ICAO member states while flying aircraft there that are flagged by the nation issuing his license.
 
Wow! I never knew that! I guess someone should inform Germany, England, Australia.....
Those countries have a special extras like USA due to the busy airspace..
 
Airprince,

As said, ICAO is simply an organization to provide a standardization in aviation throughout the world. While most standards are adopted, many are not. Standardization of airmen certificates are long from happening.

I suspect you're ultimately seeking to convert a foreign certificate to a United States-issued certificate. For that, look up 61.75 in the Federal Aviation Regulations.

A foreign certificate can be converted but only if current and valid. If yours is issued by Egypt, it has an expiration date. Be sure that certificate is indeed current. Also, you're limited by the privileges and limitations as it was issued in its originating country. For example, the most basic private pilot certificate in Egypt does not have night privileges. As a result, a direct conversion would be a US-issued private pilot certificate with limitation to Day VFR only.

You can read more here:

http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/foreign_license_verification/

FAR 61.75

I worked with another member on this board to get him in the right direction for a US certificate. Unfortunately, his Egyptian-issued certificate was expired. But, his experience counted toward training to obtain a US-issued certificate. He's now in training.
 
Those countries have a special extras like USA due to the busy airspace..

Did the Egyptian government issue you your license, or did it come direct from Montreal?

ICAO is the aviation version of IMO (International Maritime Organization), both units of the UN. They issue nothing to anyone. They are organizations comprised of representatives of its member states, where they negotiate the minimum standards of training, consistency of terminology and other operational parameters to be used by its member states in order to enhance safety by having everyone working off the same page. The member states are responsible for ensuring the compliance of these standards for international operations. They do not issue any airman certificates, the member nations issue the certificates which unless otherwise stated, are in compliance with these standards. The ICAO is not the end all in this though. Individual nation states may by private convention also amoungst themselves make treaties accepting certificates not in compliance with ICAO treaties.
 
If you want to hear a funny thing about ICAO, consider this:

As a US pilot, I will soon have to (we all will) prove proficiency in the English language in order to go into Mexico (applies to all international ops, but just for example)! We will be required to have an "English Proficient" endorsement on our certificates!

What a laugh! Have they ever got things screwed up now!!

http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/avia...afety/info/all_infos/media/2008/info08012.pdf
 
If you want to hear a funny thing about ICAO, consider this:

As a US pilot, I will soon have to (we all will) prove proficiency in the English language in order to go into Mexico (applies to all international ops, but just for example)! We will be required to have an "English Proficient" endorsement on our certificates!

What a laugh! Have they ever got things screwed up now!!

http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/avia...afety/info/all_infos/media/2008/info08012.pdf

That is a few months old. I ordered my new certificate and got it back in a couple of weeks. But the FAA got slammed with so many requests they supposedly have pushed out the deadline.
 
That is a few months old. I ordered my new certificate and got it back in a couple of weeks. But the FAA got slammed with so many requests they supposedly have pushed out the deadline.

As you said,
http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/english_proficiency/ said:
The U.S. has notified ICAO that it filed a difference that will extend the U.S. compliance date until March 5, 2009, in order to provide sufficient time for all affected U.S. airman certificate holders to comply with the ICAO Language Proficiency airman certificate endorsement requirements.
But what isn't clear to me is whether the US filing a difference means that Canada won't require it when I fly there? I would think so, or what's the point, but...
 
As you said,
But what isn't clear to me is whether the US filing a difference means that Canada won't require it when I fly there? I would think so, or what's the point, but...
I think it means that none of the ICAO countries, including Canada, will require it to be on your certificate until the later date. For US pilots I don't think there is much of a point to it since this is an English-speaking country and we don't need to pass any kind of test to prove it. However, I recently asked some pilots from Sweden if they had to pass some kind of test to get the "English Proficient" blessing, and they said they did.
 
We have til Mar 2009
I fly with a guy who has it already. I think he did it online.

I think it means that none of the ICAO countries, including Canada, will require it to be on your certificate until the later date. For US pilots I don't think there is much of a point to it since this is an English-speaking country and we don't need to pass any kind of test to prove it. However, I recently asked some pilots from Sweden if they had to pass some kind of test to get the "English Proficient" blessing, and they said they did.
 
I fly with a guy who has it already. I think he did it online.
I did mine online too and it took less than 2 weeks. Also, if you get a new certificate or rating it will be added automatically.
 
The "English proficient" endorsement on your certificate does seem kind of silly... is anybody actually checking your certificate before you depart internationally, or when you file an international flight plan?

When you make ATC contact, it will become fairly apparent at that time if you're English proficient or not. If you're not, are their ICAO recommended sanctions? If not, what's the point of this endorsement? What problem is it attempting to solve?

And, as far as the FAA issuing replacement certificates without a test... my initial reaction was "assuming that you live in the United States means you speak the language is silly", but... if you already have an FAA pilot certificate, you've proven you have at least a passing knowledge of English as it applies to aviation, as it's one of the certificate requirements.
 
The "English proficient" endorsement on your certificate does seem kind of silly... is anybody actually checking your certificate before you depart internationally, or when you file an international flight plan?
I've been to both Canada and Mexico since this took effect and nobody has physically checked my certificate in advance, not that I expected them to do so. I know it seems silly for pilots who come from English speaking countries such as the US, UK, Australia, Canada, etc. but I think ICAO is all about trying to maintain some standardization so they came up with this rule which applies to all countries involved.
 
is anybody actually checking your certificate before you depart internationally, or when you file an international flight plan?

Maybe they will never get checked on either side....but...it is another hoop for travelers to jump through, another item on the lengthy list of "gotta do's" for international travel. Already we have a bunch of things everyone has to scramble around and get before leaving....and they never get checked.

The whole thing is funnee to me because anytime I hear a transmission from south of the border, I have to work at understanding their English! But I have to be checked out before I head down there!
 
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