R44 into IMC?

DavidWhite said:
I'm very particular about who I ride with for this reason...I don't like flying with other pilots any more...
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I used to think that way. Then again I used to do a lot of IOE with new hires new to Alaska..... :hairraise:

Now there are very few private pilots where I will sit in the back seat while they fly......:lol:
 
I chose not to watch this video. This is unusual for me -- I'm not usually squeamish. I flew into my wedding last year in my Arrow, and my bride rode in with a buddy in his 172XP. It was a memorable event, and I can see how this couple wanted to do something similar. Somehow I think this would hit too close to home. I will probably watch the video later if I see it posted or if this thread comes alive, but for now, I'm going to steer clear. So very tragic.
 
MassPilot said:
It's not always impossible depending on the skills of the pilot. I had a CFI that had an engine seize at 500 AGL after takeoff. He immediately pushed the nose down hard and threw it into a 60 degree bank. He made it back to the runway he just came from with enough energy to float halfway down before touching down. If I attempted something like that I'd probably kill myself...
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My CFI pulled off a similar thing in a twin... made it back to an intersecting runway (well, more like the grass aloneside it). His choices were to either try that or a cemetery (literally). It wasn't pretty and the plane took some good damage, but he and the other CFI in the plane were both fine. I doubt I could have done that, even in a single engine.

I was starting to split time with other pilots to save money and build time, but I've found that - unless I know them and trust their flying abilities - I do NOT like riding right seat.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
I was starting to split time with other pilots to save money and build time, but I've found that - unless I know them and trust their flying abilities - I do NOT like riding right seat.
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Because no one knows more about flying than yourself..??? :smilewinkgrin: (jk)

I have found that this is not uncommon for private pilots, the not trusting other pilots that is. I wonder why?

For myself, when I ride right seat with a PP I find myself reverting to my instructing days and putting on the "I am not paying attention" look on my face while I am really watching very closely.
 
Zeldman said:
Because no one knows more about flying than yourself..??? :smilewinkgrin: (jk)

I have found that this is not uncommon for private pilots, the not trusting other pilots that is. I wonder why?

For myself, when I ride right seat with a PP I find myself reverting to my instructing days and putting on the "I am not paying attention" look on my face while I am really watching very closely.
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It's common in most situations. People who drive typically don't like being passengers either. I suspect it is true for most skills :). In pro environment, you are too busy doing other things to worry about it(most of the time).
 
Zeldman said:
Because no one knows more about flying than yourself..??? :smilewinkgrin: (jk)

I have found that this is not uncommon for private pilots, the not trusting other pilots that is. I wonder why?

For myself, when I ride right seat with a PP I find myself reverting to my instructing days and putting on the "I am not paying attention" look on my face while I am really watching very closely.
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I don't think I'd feel so uneasy if I was right seat as a CFI, because then at least I'd have authority to take controls if the other person screws up. Otherwise, I don't want to undermine the PIC or come off rude by calling out a situation when they do something I'm uncomfortable with, but I also don't want to die in a ball of fire.

My first experience as a safety pilot was a nightmare... the guy was out to kill us. Despite what his CFII told me, he was NOT ready to fly under the hood with someone other than an instructor. He was all over the place... barely paying attention to his flying and seemed completely flustered and unorganized. He looked more at the chart on his iPad than at the instruments and began entering unusual attitudes multiple times, which I'd have to call him on. After one too many times, I finally said that I wanted to cut the flight short.

His approach and landing were even worse, though. On final, he immediately went full flaps while still well above Vfe. As it should, his speed started dropping, but it pretty quickly got into a territory I wasn't comfortable with. I wasn't saying anything because I didn't want to overstep my place. 65...60... 55... I finally said "watch your speed," but he didn't react... that's when I pushed down on the controls to get our speed back up. That seem to snap him out of where ever he was in his head, as he quickly goes, "OH!" and got things in better order. o_O Then I got to experienced the bounced landing from hell. It's a huge runway, long and wide, and he was hard bouncing all over the damn thing.

I was actually really shaken by the experience. Was determined to never ever safety pilot for anyone again. But I was encouraged by a couple CFI friends to give it a second chance and to just better vet the next person. I did and the experience was the exact opposite. All I had to do was watch for traffic and help with radio calls regarding traffic. Easy peasy.

Otherwise, flying right seat... I don't know, guess it's a combo of my control freakness and trust issues with others. I don't dig it.
 
I'll fly right seat with anyone provided I know I can handle the equipment and we go into it with the understanding that I'm flying with them in the role of an instructor. You see some interesting things for sure - but - you also have the opportunity to prevent someone from killing themselves later. So I consider it worth the risk.

I will not fly with anyone if I doubt the ability to handle the equipment. For example, if someone bought a P51 and wanted me to fly with them and I knew they weren't a P51 expert I would definitely decline.

There are very very very very very few people that I would ride with in the backseat of an airplane. Like - probably 3 or less. I will come up with any excuse I can to not ride in the backseat in most cases. Airlines are an exception - I just pretend like we're riding in a bus and don't pay any attention to the flight details since there is nothing I can do about it.
 
Bill Watson said:
Synthetic Vision can make a lot of things possible that previously required the super human skills of 20yo military types flying daily in combat.
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It can also lull the inexperienced into a false sense of security or capability.
 
Zeldman said:
Because no one knows more about flying than yourself..??? :smilewinkgrin: (jk)

I have found that this is not uncommon for private pilots, the not trusting other pilots that is. I wonder why?

For myself, when I ride right seat with a PP I find myself reverting to my instructing days and putting on the "I am not paying attention" look on my face while I am really watching very closely.
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While I have no instructing experience, that is exactly what I do when my son is flying!! :D
 
I've flown safety pilot many times and learned a lot in the process. I think just not being in our comfort seat is what makes it feel uneasy at times. I remember well flying right seat with a good friend (flying my cherokee 180). He had a lot of hours but had been away for several years. He'd only recently had a BFR done and was back in the air. On the downwind he doesn't even back off the throttle (not that my 180 was fast) and barely bleeds any speed on the two meticulously flown turns to final and then cuts throttle while I'm thinking damn you're high. Nose up / flaps full when speed ok and he greased the **** out of the numbers. I was like WTH was that? He said, "well I was always taught when I got into the pattern I should never create a situation where in engine out I'm landing off airport." Learned a little that day.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
I do NOT like riding right seat.
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I hope I didn't start the trend of not liking the right seat! :D My flying wasn't THAT bad...

(For those of you wondering, no I wasn't the aforementioned IFR student- thank god!)
 
arkvet said:
I was like WTH was that? He said, "well I was always taught when I got into the pattern I should never create a situation where in engine out I'm landing off airport." Learned a little that day.
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Well that's an interesting way to go about it, sounds more like a twin landing where you want to keep the speed at or above blue line until the field is made. Nothing wrong with it but I would consider a tighter low power or power off approach when flying a single.

Either way works I suppose
 
dell30rb said:
Nothing wrong with it but I would consider a tighter low power or power off approach when flying a single.
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I want to fly tighter patterns on landing, but I'm nervous that there is some reason I shouldn't fly closer to the runway, turn earlier to base, etc.

I'm not that great at forward slips, I always seem to build up extra energy and end up floating further down the runway, but I hope that is something that will get better with practice.

I fly a Cessna 172, mostly at class D airports. Obviously if there is other traffic lower or further along, I wouldn't dare cut them off; but if I'm cleared to land while reporting midfield on downwind, any reason I shouldn't fly my patterns close and tight?

(Edit: Thread jacking, oops, sorry in advance.)
 
neilw2 said:
I hope I didn't start the trend of not liking the right seat! :D My flying wasn't THAT bad...

(For those of you wondering, no I wasn't the aforementioned IFR student- thank god!)
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Hahaha... No! I admit I was a bit nervous before I went up with you, but because I had never flown right seat in a small plane before. Once we were airborne, I was actually fine. I really think that IFR student just scarred me!
 
Justin M said:
I'm not that great at forward slips, I always seem to build up extra energy and end up floating further down the runway, but I hope that is something that will get better with practice.
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Don't let the nose fall as you set up the slip, and don't let it fall as you come out.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Bill Watson said:
Don't let the nose fall as you set up the slip, and don't let it fall as you come out.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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This. Remember that your airspeed indicator is likely inaccurate when slipping, so judge speed by attitude. Practice at altitude to see what attitude gives you a comfortable margin above stall. The nose may be higher than you expect.
 
arkvet said:
I should never create a situation where in engine out I'm landing off airport.
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There's another way to ensure you keep it safe, and eliminates all the risks:

IMG_0649.JPG
 
I know this is an old thread, but am starting my training in helos and this crash was mentioned. Does anyone know if there is a final report by the investigating agency, further authoritative information, or a current link to the full video which includes the takeoff (over 7 mins long)?
 
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Art VanDelay said:
Try single nav cross tuning an old CDI to identify an intersection hold in a Huey sometime if you want some real giggles. Looking back I don't know how I ever did it - way too much work though that's for sure.
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I'm with you on that. Everyone knows that Huey pilots have fast hands. An FAA team in Texas borrowed one of my medevac Hueys back in the mid 70's to look into IFR helicopters. The result was Bell took a BH 212 out of the Ft Worth production line and installed that teams requirements on what was to become the IFR 212 prototype. I later shared history with that prototype after it got part 29 certification.
What it had was redundant electrical supply, and an automatic flight control system. This particular ship got a Huey Cobra SAS system slapped on it and it was called an AFCS.
Then there was the rewrite of the RotorCraft Flight Manual. Different VNE's (VFR/IFR). New terms: Vmin & Vmini. The hight/velocity diagram shifted from sectinion 4 (performance charts) to section 1 (Limitations). The effect of that one gave the A/C a minimum runway length. It goes on. As for the Huey, a bunch of low time pilots got a lot of cloud time and it proved dependable. No autopilots, no glide slope recievers single VOR/LOC, no FIKI gear.
 
Bell206 said:
I believe this is the link below. But if looking for helicopter inadvertent IMC reports there are also plenty in the US NTSB database, unfortunately.
http://sistema.cenipa.aer.mil.br/cenipa/paginas/relatorios/rf/en/PR-TUN_04_12_2016_English.pdf

Video:
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Thanks. That video does show the transition into IMC. Seems he had plenty of time to make the correct decision and turn around. Disturbing to watch.

Some other interesting tidbits from the written report:

The pilot had promoted such flights at bridal fairs.

The pilot had flown to this exact location several times previously.

They only entered IMC when quite close to the destination and searching for it.

The pilot may have been using an AI on the GPS rather than the actual AI.
 
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Bell206 said:
Then you have this ace. Maybe you should get him as your rotor CFI? Oh wait, can't, he flew into the ground in clouds one day. A legend in his own mind.:rolleyes:
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Guess his arrogance caught up to him ...
 
A great topic. The usual wiseass comments on a serious topic. I personally knew a couple of pilots that screwed up the common, standard, well known 180 degree turn when the WX dropped. Most were in variants of the BH206 Jetranger. One survived, most didn't. Equipped about like the subject R44. Some better, some not so much.
I visited a survivor in his hospital room. Fractured pelvis, ribs, arm and leg. Wheel chair there after and done with flying. His passengers did not survive. He had more experience than me.
He related the story to me. Crossing the beach outbound and ceilings dropping. He had stuck his nose in it, started his 180 at minimum altitude, and was looking out the side to stay visual over the island below. The nose dropped. The LongRanger plowed into the island at a reduced airspeed. He was "eyeballs out" when he should have been on the VSI and att indicator.
I sometime was down graded from my IFR equipped ride to a VFR JetRanger. I some time ran into bad weather. Down around the minimum enroute altitude of 300 AGL. My way of pulling off a decent 180 was by applying the lessons learned from "Easy Ed" above. Here it is if anybody is interested.
Come to terms that I'm in IMC and go "eyeballs in." A slight aft stick so I see a small uptick on the VSI. 100 or 200 FPM up. At the same time, roll into no more than 20 deg bank. Wings level when I see my original heading on the bottom of the heading indicator. Now flying into improved WX. Works every time and I have the safety record to prove it. Good luck.
 
I really don’t understand why more helicopter pilots and operators dont have at least minimal IFR capabilities or training for inadvertent IMC...I just assumed they did. Like many Army Aviators in my era got my instrument training with duel VOR’s and an NDB no Autopilot but flying with forcetrim to reduce control inputs. As one of the first Apache pilots in the late 80’s we were given an Aircraft with a single NDB and authorized IFR flight which has now changed. The AH-64 was sold to Congress as an all weather day/night attack helicopter so it had to be IFR capable...probably the stupidest flying we ever did. It was also modified that a ground radar approach had also to be available at destination.
 
Warlock said:
dont have at least minimal IFR capabilities or training for inadvertent IMC
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Most of the main stream 135 operators I know of require inadvertent IMC training. Whether that equates to proficiency at those maneuvers is still a big discussion point. As to IFR capabilities, until recently there were very few IFR SE helicopters out there so few trained for it because they didn't have the equipment to fly it. However, with the recent approval/install of IFR STCs for the AW119 and 407GXi that may be changing as those aircraft are starting to enter the EMS scene. Well at least the GXi. But we'll see if that will fix the problem as even twin engine SPIFR helicopters seemed to find their way into the ground every now and then. Time will tell.
 
Warlock said:
I really don’t understand why more helicopter pilots and operators dont have at least minimal IFR capabilities or training for inadvertent IMC...I just assumed they did.
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135.293 Initial and recurrent pilot testing requirements
(c) Each competency check given in a rotorcraft must include a demonstration of the pilot's ability to maneuver the rotorcraft solely by reference to instruments. The check must determine the pilot's ability to safely maneuver the rotorcraft into visual meteorological conditions following an inadvertent encounter with instrument meteorological conditions. For competency checks in non-IFR-certified rotorcraft, the pilot must perform such maneuvers as are appropriate to the rotorcraft's installed equipment, the certificate holder's operations specifications, and the operating environment.

Subpart L - Helicopter Air Ambulance Equipment, Operations, and Training Requirements
135.603 Pilot-in-command instrument qualifications.
§ 135.603 Pilot-in-command instrument qualifications.
After April 24, 2017, no certificate holder may use, nor may any person serve as, a pilot in command of a helicopter air ambulance operation unless that person meets the requirements of § 135.243 and holds a helicopter instrument rating or an airline transport pilot certificate with a category and class rating for that aircraft, that is not limited to VFR.
 
DD2894F5-B42F-48C2-8FF1-22002D65A507.jpeg Just got GXI qual’d a month ago. With only 15 TT it still had the new aircraft smell. I need a booster seat to see over the glare shield. :(
 
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