Ever have non-owned insurance pay out?

DFH65

DFH65

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DFH65
I was having a conversation with my insurance broker the other day on the topic of non-owned insurance. I have carried a separate policy for non-owned because my the insurance on my airplane doesn't cover it because it is a co-owned airplane.

He said the non-owned insurance rarely or never pays and if they do it is only the deductible of the owners insurance. He said they will fight tooth and nail to not pay anything. I guess I would expect that for an insurance company but I always looked at it as if I booger up someone's airplane they pay to make them whole. He basically said they need to sue you and if they can find any shared negligence (say a maintenance discrepancy) they will not pay.

So has anyone ever had their non-owned policy pay out.
 
Poop expletive, My owned insurance company fought me tooth and nail over an "act of God", though that's a generous thing to call the moron in the hangar behind me.
 
Frustrating because basically I have wasted a bunch of money on this over the years. There is a plane I am graciously allowed to use that I don't believe the organization has anything but liability on. I had thought if I messed up they would be made whole. That was the whole purpose of buying it. Guess if I am going to continue to fly it I need to just "self-insure" it is not an expensive plane but still significant. The only other option is to say sue me I guess and hope they have good lawyers but that cost money they don't have either.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Poop expletive, My owned insurance company fought me tooth and nail over an "act of God", though that's a generous thing to call the moron in the hangar behind me.
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Can we hear the story?
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Poop expletive, My owned insurance company fought me tooth and nail over an "act of God", though that's a generous thing to call the moron in the hangar behind me.
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I still think it should have been either hangar owners insurance or the contractor that built said hangar. After all thats what commercial liability insurance is for... regardless of the jackwagon that left the door open.
 
Racerx said:
I still think it should have been either hangar owners insurance or the contractor that built said hangar. After all thats what commercial liability insurance is for... regardless of the jackwagon that left the door open.
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Yep and my insurance company refused to go after them, and did everything in their power to delay the process and pay me as little as possible. But, I'm not bitter or anything... oh wait, yes I am.
 
DFH65 said:
I have carried a separate policy for non-owned because my the insurance on my airplane doesn't cover it because it is a co-owned airplane.
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My understanding from co-ownership days is that the club policy would cover rented plane if our covered plane was out of service for maintenance, but not for "schedule availability". So I kept a renters policy that would/should cover anything that happened to the operators equipment.

Of course the local expert on this is the Deer Hunter. AKA @RyanB
 
Ravioli said:
Of course the local expert on this is the Deer Hunter. AKA @RyanB
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Ah, yes, the day I killed Rudolph. It was 8 days before Christmas 2018. I won’t forget that one...

In this case, the flight schools insurance covered the cost for the engine tear down and inspection and it was determined to be an ‘act of god’.

FB493B15-247D-40DE-B332-9C941846092A.jpeg
 
So.... Renters Insurance is a waste of time?
 
RyanShort1 said:
No, it's not, unless you never have a need to use it...
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I've read the above comments about how they pay nothing, fight tooth and nail, etc. Is Renters different than Non Owned?
 
The issue isn’t if the renters (non owned) insurance ever pays a dime, the issue is protecting you from paying for an accident and paying all the attorney fees in your defense.
 
Clip4 said:
The issue isn’t if the renters (non owned) insurance ever pays a dime, the issue is protecting you from paying for an accident and paying all the attorney fees in your defense.
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If the renters insurance doesn't pay a dime how does renters insurance protect you from the paying for the accident, attorney fees, etc.?
 
Isn't the point here that with non-owners insurance the insurance company is normally able to get some other insurance company to pay most of the damage? Hence the comment about the deductible. Aircraft A gets damaged by pilot B with non-owners insurance. Owner's insurance company on A wrangles with pilot B's non-owners insurance company, and B's insurance company ends up paying the deductible, and A's insurance pays the rest. If Pilot B didn't have insurance, it would be them having to do the wrangling with insurance company A.
 
CaptainXap said:
Isn't the point here that with non-owners insurance the insurance company is normally able to get some other insurance company to pay most of the damage? Hence the comment about the deductible. Aircraft A gets damaged by pilot B with non-owners insurance. Owner's insurance company on A wrangles with pilot B's non-owners insurance company, and B's insurance company ends up paying the deductible, and A's insurance pays the rest. If Pilot B didn't have insurance, it would be them having to do the wrangling with insurance company A.
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Yup...renter’s insurance isn’t about “I want to cover their loss out of the goodness of my heart”. It’s about paying what you are legally obligated to pay, which means that anything beyond a deductible is going to require a lawsuit.
 
CaptainXap said:
Aircraft A gets damaged by pilot B with non-owners insurance. Owner's insurance company on A wrangles with pilot B's non-owners insurance company
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This is what I don't understand and maybe someone can explain it. In a rental or club situation Aircraft A is only being flown by a bunch of different Pilot Bs. So what's the purpose of having insurance for Aircraft A if their plan is always to subrogate to the Pilot Bs? Where is their risk if they plan to recoup their costs from Pilot B (or their non-owned insurance) after every claim?
 
I imagine there's a large number of student pilots who do not have enough assets to cover the cost of the plane.
 
WDD said:
If the renters insurance doesn't pay a dime how does renters insurance protect you from the paying for the accident, attorney fees, etc.?
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Read your policy. Non-owned coverage is obligated to defend the insured against any claims, and pay any judgements up to the limit of the policy.
 
The place I plan to rent from said I need to have insurance (I forget the limits) with them on the policy.
 
kayoh190 said:
This is what I don't understand and maybe someone can explain it. In a rental or club situation Aircraft A is only being flown by a bunch of different Pilot Bs. So what's the purpose of having insurance for Aircraft A if their plan is always to subrogate to the Pilot Bs? Where is their risk if they plan to recoup their costs from Pilot B (or their non-owned insurance) after every claim?
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When damage occurs when the plane isnt flying. Nashville tornado, hail damage, theft, hangar fire, drunkard without car insurance plowing through 2 planes on the way to your hangar. Pilot C leaving a hangar door open and having a wall fall on it...
 
kayoh190 said:
This is what I don't understand and maybe someone can explain it. In a rental or club situation Aircraft A is only being flown by a bunch of different Pilot Bs. So what's the purpose of having insurance for Aircraft A if their plan is always to subrogate to the Pilot Bs? Where is their risk if they plan to recoup their costs from Pilot B (or their non-owned insurance) after every claim?
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What if they can’t recoup from Pilot B or non-owned insurance?
 
It’s worth the prepaid legal coverage in case of an accident alone...particularly if you have injuries or excess property damage.
 
WDD said:
So.... Renters Insurance is a waste of time?
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It's all a matter of sending someone else's lawyers to collect somewhere else. The problem though is that if they don't pay out or don't pay enough, it's a different issue.
 
RyanB said:
Ah, yes, the day I killed Rudolph. It was 8 days before Christmas 2018. I won’t forget that one...

In this case, the flight schools insurance covered the cost for the engine tear down and inspection and it was determined to be an ‘act of god’.

View attachment 93374
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Hey @Zeldman ... is this the aviation bizarro version of “Grandma got run over by a reindeer”?
 
kgruber said:
Insurance companies are NOT in the business to pay claims.
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My experience with a few companies is that they appear to have this modus operandi:

The response to every single claim is to immediately send the claimant a letter of denial and then sit back and wait. The ones which do not respond? That is cash money to them; no payout keeps their coffers full.

For those who do respond, many companies appear to have entire departments whose sole purpose is to find any chink in your argument for a claim, to fight it tooth and nail.

I have often wondered how many failed claims end up with the policyholder seeking legal counsel, and how that has changed over the years.

I would love to be proven wrong, maybe there are people here in claims who would have an alternate view.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
My experience with a few companies is that they appear to have this modus operandi:

The response to every single claim is to immediately send the claimant a letter of denial and then sit back and wait. The ones which do not respond? That is cash money to them; no payout keeps their coffers full.

For those who do respond, many companies appear to have entire departments whose sole purpose is to find any chink in your argument for a claim, to fight it tooth and nail.

I have often wondered how many failed claims end up with the policyholder seeking legal counsel, and how that has changed over the years.

I would love to be proven wrong, maybe there are people here in claims who would have an alternate view.
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Are you referring to non-owned policies, or insurance in general?
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
In general, MS. I have never had a non-owned policy. Sorry for the deviation from the original thread direction.
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Well, i can’t speak for everyone, but I’ve had more than a couple of claims paid out with no argument at all from insurance companies. In one case, they did investigate whether things happened in the order I said they did (due to a combination of errors on the part of my agent and myself, the policy lapsed for about 9 hours, but the loss occurred after the policy was reinstated.)

maybe you’re just dealing with the wrong companies.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Well, i can’t speak for everyone, but I’ve had more than a couple of claims paid out with no argument at all from insurance companies. In one case, they did investigate whether things happened in the order I said they did (due to a combination of errors on the part of my agent and myself, the policy lapsed for about 9 hours, but the loss occurred after the policy was reinstated.)

maybe you’re just dealing with the wrong companies.
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I am speaking specifically of non-owned paying out and so far it doesn't seem like there are any or certainly not many instances where that happens. I would expect my own insurance on my own aircraft to pay out. Maybe that is folly as well.
 
DFH65 said:
I am speaking specifically of non-owned paying out and so far it doesn't seem like there are any or certainly not many instances where that happens.
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They will, if the circumstances warrant it.
 
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