How long do "these markets" last?

This thread topic keeps coming up at least once a month.

The legacy fleet is aging out. Quality supply is diminishing. Count all the ramp rats and hangar dialects at many airports that are becoming scrap for recycling. Parts prices are escalating and will never go down as they are controlled by the Piper, Textron, etc. Quality planes that remain are in good demand and the cost of maintenance is ever increasing, which adds to the cost of a quality aircraft.

The legacy fleet is shrinking, replacement parts are increasing, and demand is up.

The younger generation has made a lot more money than the older generation. There is high demand for quality aircraft that bring the market up for everyone.

I remember having this debate with people back in 2005 about the insane prices of new and used aircraft. We are also experiencing a period of increased inflation and assets of all types are appreciating with a weaker dollar. Look at the cost of housing, used trucks, and airplanes.
 
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The legacy fleet is also growing all the time. Planes get older. In 2000, a 1970s airplane was “old”. In 10 years a “new” 2000 airplane will be as old as those 1970s were in 2000.

Planes are always aging. The “brand new” 172s our club bought 17 years ago are both well past 10,000 hours. The 20 year old Warriors are now 40.

One day there will be another “big oops” and the prices of exotic cars, boats and airplanes will crash.
 
Matthew K said:
I agree with most of this. However, while there may be short term pain with an increase in cost of fossil fuels, it's really just a push to switch to a better alternative. Cost of the alternative will save everyone money(not to mention health) compared to fossil fuels. It's just a matter of balancing the speed of the shift so you don't shock the economy.

I'll call it now, I think 20,30 years from now. The gas car will be very much like GA planes are today. Relegated to a very small portion of the population that enjoy them as a hobby/sport.
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I think that you are being optimistic. I think that in 20, 30 years, personal transportation in any form other than a bicycle will be a luxury. Fortunately, I will not be around. Feel sorry for the younger crowd.
 
Country Flier said:
@hindsight2020 is using his hindsight lol. He’s spot on. I’ve owned several planes over the past 25 years, and as it has in the past, the price bubbles will again burst and burst hard. Along with planes will go boats, vacation homes, and other excesses. I’m sitting on cash at the moment, patiently waiting...I’m planning to upgrade my plane (always better to upgrade on a downturn, or downgrade when things are up), and buy the vacation home I should have bought in 2014.
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My partner and I bought the Mooney in 2007, if we had only known about the bust coming in 2009, we could have bought a similar plane for 50 to 70 cents on the dollar. But, now 13 years later, I look back and don't really give a hoot. The money has been long sunk, the plane has turned out to be a good robust dependable aircraft, and I've had lots of fun. No regrets. And besides, if you own an aircraft long enough, you're going to have to buy a new engine, new avionics, etc., and that blows the whole "investment" thing out of the water.

WDD said:
It would appear good and decent people on this board are wishing for an economic crash so they can get a lower price on buying a plane??
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I don't wish an economic crash on anyone as hard times are no fun.
 
I think @hindsight2020 really nailed it. Folks don't balk at the higher sticker prices since financing is available. [ saleseman - *slaps cowl* "what's it gonna take to put you in this old, run out, overpriced 172 today?" buyer - "Sold! I'll finance it for 20 years!" ] Then what happens when the first annual turns up $20k in issues? Or a new engine. Can those be financed? Or is the buyer now tapping credit cards, spending savings he can't afford to burn through, maybe tapping that home equity line...

Everyone is different, but I found it best to find a great partner who had the same vision for the plane to buy, the price point, the condition, avionics, etc. Then we went to work and hit the (internet) pavement. We saw plenty of nice Arrows in the $80-100k range with pretty panels and low-ish time engines. Took a lot of calling, looking, almost buying, more looking, more calls... about four months worth of pretty hard work. But we eventually found one that was the best value for what we needed. Long story short - there are deals out there if you have some patience and are willing to put in the time to search. Unless you are trying to buy a 172. Good luck with that.
 
Deelee said:
I think @hindsight2020Everyone is different, but I found it best to find a great partner who had the same vision for the plane to buy, the price point, the condition, avionics, etc. Then we went to work and hit the (internet) pavement. We saw plenty of nice Arrows in the $80-100k range with pretty panels and low-ish time engines. Took a lot of calling, looking, almost buying, more looking, more calls... about four months worth of pretty hard work. But we eventually found one that was the best value for what we needed. Long story short - there are deals out there if you have some patience and are willing to put in the time to search. Unless you are trying to buy a 172. Good luck with that.
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My partner and I did the same thing. We took a few months to arrive at the type of aircraft to purchase, then another 4 months or so of scouring Trade-A-Plane, Controller, etc. We kissed a few frogs that remained frogs, sent them on their way, etc. We eventually came into the bird we own now through one of the A/Ps we used to look at and reject one of the frog airplanes. He had a customer who took good care of his plane and was looking to sell and put us together. We still to this day use the A/P and his company to MX the bird.
 
Private small GA airplanes are a discretionary expenditure, not a necessity. Aggregate demand and prices tend to correlate with the general state of the economy, the cost of money and the cost to operate.

It's like that with a lot of things. Fuel prices high and rising, as they were from 2004 to 2008, power boat sales and prices decline and sailboats become more popular.

$150 per barrel oil in the summer of 2008 absolutely killed the value of piston twins and the price spread against high performance piston singles widened to an unprecedented level. I went bottom fishing for my Aztec in the aftermath of the ensuing financial crisis recession; took the better part of a year to find the right one.

Although there's been some notable increases in nominal prices for certain popular models of airplanes I am still amazed at how much capability a patient purchaser can buy for the dollar in the used market today. That might be reflective of the reality that the initial cost of entry is the cheapest part of owning an airplane. ;)
 
Interesting.
Morgan3820 said:
I think that you are being optimistic. I think that in 20, 30 years, personal transportation in any form other than a bicycle will be a luxury. Fortunately, I will not be around. Feel sorry for the younger crowd.
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I have similar thoughts. 30 yrs from now.............You open an app, tell it what time you want to be somewhere, and it tell you what time you will be picked up. You walk outside at the prescribed time, and the driverless "vehicle" pick you up. You play vieo games as it whisks you to where you want to be, exactly on time. Cost will be extremely cheap, since the vehicel is automated, it doesn't have bad drivers/pilots destroying it, so it lasts forever. No crashes, since there will be no pilot, or driver to make mistakes, so insurance will be almost nothing. The paint on the the vehicle is a solar grid that keeps the battery charged, for free. Fossil fuels will be so rare and expensive, that no one will use them, even if they could afford them. Or maybe outlawed all together.
Somebody please save my ramblings so we can look back and see. Might be good for a laugh. If I'm still around (doubtful) I would buy the scotch for that get "flyin". (if that's not outlawed too.)
 
FormerHangie said:
With the low production numbers, I suspect the fleet is actually shrinking. Cessna built 126 172s, 33 182s and 26 206s last year. Every year some airplanes are destroyed in crashes, some are damaged beyond repair in storms, others are exported, and some are just left to rot. Unless a lot of someones start buying new airplanes, the bottom's not going to fall out of the used market.
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The fleet is almost undoubtedly be shrinking, but so is the GA pilot population. Looking at just private pilot certs, we had 299K private pilots in 1990, a decade later is was 252K, now it's 173K. I'd guess that the ratio of potential-aircraft owners to available piston-GA birds is about the same, but that's obviously just a guess.

WDD said:
It would appear good and decent people on this board are wishing for an economic crash so they can get a lower price on buying a plane?? Surely not.....

In all seriousness - if you buy a plane you plan on holding for 10, 15 years, does it really matter when? You can't time the market - no one can. If you buy low and sell high, the plane you replace it with will be high as well. Buy high, sell low? The plane you replace it with will be lower as well. Besides, buying a plane - so I've been told - is a small part of the barrels of cash you'll be spending flying it anyway.
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For me, it's not about what the value will be in 10-15 years compared to what aircraft I might then buy. I mean, what if I never buy another aircraft? I don't buy luxury cars brand new because they lose value too quickly, and I know in 10 years I'll be selling. But it's just money, right? I look at an aircraft the same way. If I know that a certain commodity has typically traded for X amount a few years ago and now that price has gone up 50% over a short time period, I might view that new value as overstated and a product of broader economic swings. My demand is elastic and I don't have to have an aircraft right now. Others may have less-elastic demand and are more willing to pay whatever the current market dictates. Nothing wrong with either approach.
 
I think there’s a lot of cash out there being spent on all kinds of things. Financing cost has a lot to do with housing appreciation but less to do with aircraft which by my observation tend to be cash purchases.

What has happened with classic cars and motorcycles is that when prices rise, it actually attracts those with cash, because of the investment angle - it’s somewhere to park cash. Those people with that mindset are then less concerned with investing more money in repairs and improvements. Then, when the market reverses for a while the vehicles are in better shape and market values don’t settle as low as they were. Then after a while the cycle repeats, there’s a rebound in market value led by those models that are most attractive, and the average condition of the vehicles improves again. Some models get left behind, some go higher than they were as the market reevaluates them.

With classic cars etc there’s no supply of new ones and people like them, so you can see why this is happening over a long period. You could argue that there are not the same regulatory and consumer preference constraints on new planes, but I think given new prices so high, it amounts to the same thing and over time we’ll continue to see older plane prices rise, and improvements in average condition too.

I look at older aircraft as an inexpensive way to get a lot of value in the initial purchase price, and it’s generally recoverable when you sell the plane someday. The real ownership cost comes in storage, repairs and maintenance so those are the areas that I’d pay more attention to, perhaps buying a plane that needs less versus more, and sorting storage at reasonable monthly cost. The dollar number paid for the plane is probably less important over say five to ten years of ownership.
 
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Cogito said:
Do people finance personal airplanes? I wouldn't buy one I couldn't afford; insurance, maintenance, and taxes are enough of a yearly expense. It'd be different for a commercial operation where the plane could pay for itself.
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ktup-flyer said:
I’m sure some people do. I was taught to never finance toys
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Me too... but like a lot of things, you have to evaluate your own situation and do what's right for you. I have loans on things I could have paid cash for. In fact, just last week I financed the 2-year-old vehicle my wife is now driving. Why? Because the bank will write a 2.69% fixed rate note for 48 months. My investments are earning, net, between double and quadruple that much. Hell, even the corporate bonds we have make more interest than that! So, in my opinion, it would be silly not to finance. We're not overextended, and if I lost my job tomorrow (highly unlikely) we still wouldn't be. So... like most generalizations, whether or not it's a smart thing to finance non-essentials depends on a lot of things, and isn't always a bad idea.
 
Tusayan said:
I think there’s a lot of cash out there being spent on all kinds of things. Financing cost has a lot to do with housing appreciation but less to do with aircraft which by my observation tend to be cash purchases.

What has happened with classic cars and motorcycles is that when prices rise, it actually attracts those with cash, because of the investment angle - it’s somewhere to park cash. Those people with that mindset are then less concerned with investing more money in repairs and improvements. Then, when the market reverses for a while the vehicles are in better shape and market values don’t settle as low as they were. Then after a while the cycle repeats, there’s a rebound in market value led by those models that are most attractive, and the average condition of the vehicles improves again. Some models get left behind, so go a bit crazy

With classic cars etc there’s no supply of new ones and people like them, so you can see why this is happening over a long period. You could argue that there are not the same regulatory and consumer preference constraints on new planes, but I think given new prices so high, it amounts to the same thing and over time we’ll continue to see older plane prices rise, and improvements in average condition too.
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I agree. I'd think the two markets are similar from a supply standpoint. The 60's Ford Bronco is equivalent to the C172 right now. The Bronco was easy to pick up for under $10K in decent condition less than a decade ago, now you can't touch a similar model for under $20K. The number of them available hasn't really changed much in the past decade, but the general economic market as well as Ford's reintroduction of the Bronco spurred a lot of pricing support. The C172 has seen a large price increase lately, seemingly driven by flight schools/rental outfits paying top dollar to increase fleet size. We haven't crashed a bunch of C172 aircraft in the past decade, so the price increase is demand-driven not supply-driven, just like the Bronco. At least you can work on a rusted out Bronco to restore it on your own . . . but that's a different discussion, lol.
 
DaleB said:
Me too... but like a lot of things, you have to evaluate your own situation and do what's right for you. I have loans on things I could have paid cash for. In fact, just last week I financed the 2-year-old vehicle my wife is now driving. Why? Because the bank will write a 2.69% fixed rate note for 48 months. My investments are earning, net, between double and quadruple that much. Hell, even the corporate bonds we have make more interest than that! So, in my opinion, it would be silly not to finance. We're not overextended, and if I lost my job tomorrow (highly unlikely) we still wouldn't be. So... like most generalizations, whether or not it's a smart thing to finance non-essentials depends on a lot of things, and isn't always a bad idea.
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Exactly. We don't have any debt other than the mortgage. We are set to close on a refinance of the house next week because the interest rate has gone from our previously "good" rate of 3.75% on a 30yr to 2.5% on a 15yr (yes some of that is term-driven). The savings is very substantial and payback including closing costs is less than a couple of years, savings on the loan should amount to $140K. We didn't "need" to refi, but it didn't make sense not to, especially when the monthly payment basically stays static. Same goes for financing a vehicle that you could pay cash for. If they are going to give away the money that cheaply, no reason not just stash the cash in a low-risk investment and come out ahead in the end.
 
Frankly I think the idea that anyone truly knows is kind of absurd. I see reasons to believe that a recession may be imminent. On the other hand...I also see signs that "money printer go brrrrrrr" (as the memes have it) will rule the day until Weimer Germany level inflation takes hold. The only advice I have...diversify diversify diversify.

Some in a home, some in a plane, some in Gold, some in Stocks, some in cash, and some in lead. Yeah you might not come out ahead in all scenarios, but you might end up better than many in some scenarios, yeah the ants never had a really fun summer...BUT then the grasshoppers organized against the ants and stole all their grub anyways (wait that's not how that fable is supposed to go.) So yeah not much answers a lot of you have to live your life and determine what values you have and how you want your time here spent. All I know is, is that for me, if the purge does happen it is nice to think I can load up and flee better than 99.8% of the population and regroup.

And sometimes...I tell myself the fact that people still take cotton pictures of dead Presidents (+Franklin) for actual assets is something to be thankful for.
 
Oldmanb777 said:
Interesting.

I have similar thoughts. 30 yrs from now.............You open an app, tell it what time you want to be somewhere, and it tell you what time you will be picked up. You walk outside at the prescribed time, and the driverless "vehicle" pick you up. You play vieo games as it whisks you to where you want to be, exactly on time. Cost will be extremely cheap, since the vehicel is automated, it doesn't have bad drivers/pilots destroying it, so it lasts forever. No crashes, since there will be no pilot, or driver to make mistakes, so insurance will be almost nothing. The paint on the the vehicle is a solar grid that keeps the battery charged, for free. Fossil fuels will be so rare and expensive, that no one will use them, even if they could afford them. Or maybe outlawed all together.
Somebody please save my ramblings so we can look back and see. Might be good for a laugh. If I'm still around (doubtful) I would buy the scotch for that get "flyin". (if that's not outlawed too.)
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Uh, yeh, that was not the direction that I was going. Thinking more of Argentina, Venezuela, Kosovo. But, hey I could be wrong.
 
Having gotten my PPL in recent history, along with my desire to own a plane, I’ve witnessed first hand the latest rise in listed prices. If anything it drives me to look at less volatile options (I.e. twins or turbines)...

gov98 said:
The only advice I have...diversify diversify diversify.

Some in a home, some in a plane, some in Gold, some in Stocks, some in cash, and some in lead
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Diversification via aircraft... this is genius - I’m going to try this one on the Mrs see if that works!
 
Racerx said:
Or a Dakota. Can buy a Six cheaper. With what used Dakota's are going for it's a wonder Piper doesn't bring it back in some capacity.
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Having owned a 160, 180, 200 Arrow and a Dakota, I must agree. I loved flying each of them, but the Dakota was arguably the best all 'round and versatile Cherokee derivative Piper ever made.
 
GRG55 said:
Having owned a 160, 180, 200 Arrow and a Dakota, I must agree. I loved flying each of them, but the Dakota was arguably the best all 'round and versatile Cherokee derivative Piper ever made.
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Too bad they never stuck the 6 cylinder on the arrow.
 
Jim K said:
Too bad they never stuck the 6 cylinder on the arrow.
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Really how hard would it be to have that as an option for the Archer or Arrow today. I remember Pilawt once saying Piper used the same airframe when doing flight tests for the 160,180,and 235. They're still selling a few Archers and Arrows. Why not just have that option available. Don't even need a name change. Like the Cherokee Six. Available in 260 or 300hp.
 
Racerx said:
Really how hard would it be to have that as an option for the Archer or Arrow today. I remember Pilawt once saying Piper used the same airframe when doing flight tests for the 160,180,and 235. They're still selling a few Archers and Arrows. Why not just have that option available. Don't even need a name change. Like the Cherokee Six. Available in 260 or 300hp.
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Piper's sales to private buyers of personal airplanes, other than the Seneca V, Meridian and Malibu, are probably inconsequential today. It's just too small a volume and margin to be of serious value to the firm.

Cirrus has the high end personal private airplane market pretty well locked up, and there's not even enough of that cohort for an "also ran" in that space. The TTX is gone and the Bonanza is now past it's "best before" date. Diamond is giving it the old college try.
The Seneca and Baron survive only because there's nothing much else left in that niche. Although the diesel DA62 might eliminate them in due course. I imagine the piston Malibu/M350 attracts a lot of potential Seneca buyers.

Piper tailored its small piston product line to the training market and that, along with Textron's reluctance to expand Cessna piston aircraft production, is arguably what has allowed that line of airplanes to survive in recent years.
 
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I know Piper's piston line is catered to flight schools. By why not offer the 235. Wishful thinking I suppose.
 
Racerx said:
I know Piper's piston line is catered to flight schools. By why not offer the 235. Wishful thinking I suppose.
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Once again...because there isn't enough market for it.

Same reason, for example, Piper doesn't manufacture the Cherokee 6, and Cessna doesn't manufacture any high performance twin piston aircraft any more. It's not that these (and many other airplane models) weren't good airplanes for their target purposes, there's just not enough market to support producing new ones.

And it's not as though some haven't tried; the failed attempt to put the Grumman Tiger back into production is but one example. That effort stopped producing in 2006, a year when the total number of new piston airplanes being sold was almost double what it was in 2019. And the Tiger is/was a great airplane compared to the other 180 hp equivalents, with good used examples in high demand.

To put it in perspective:
In 2019 Piper sold 182 Archers and 40 twin engine Seminoles.

Closest competitor to a new built Dakota is the Cessna 182. Last year Cessna sold 33 of them (compared to 161 in 2006). How much market share in a declining volume trend do you think the Dakota could capture? What's in it for the shareholders and why would it make sense for Piper to even bother?

BTW, Piper sold 44 turboprop Meridians and Daher sold 48 TBMs last year - and both certainly had higher margins per airplane than Cessna can make selling a 182. Where would you put your management and marketing time, and manufacturing $?

Closest competitors to the Cherokee 6/Saratoga is the Bonanza G36 and, perhaps, the 8-place Mahindra Airvan. Beech sold 7 Bonanzas last year, and Airvan sales totalled 12 airplanes. I think the only reason Textron keeps making Bonanzas is because their dealers don't have a step up piston airplane from the strut-braced high wings.

But if we look at where Cessna makes its real money, I would guess many Citation M2 baby-jet buyers are former Meridian or TBM owners, so it would not surprise if Textron abandons the Beech piston line soon.

High performance piston twins?
3 whole Seneca Vs, and 15 Barons in 2019.
The bright spot here is Diamond, which sold more than 100 diesel piston twins, although I don't know how many of these were in North America, versus Europe & elsewhere, where the availability of avgas can be limited. We will see if Diamond can sustain or grow those annual unit numbers in the years to come.
 
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I wonder if they'd build you one if you were willing to pay for it. They're hand building one at a time anyway, and it's the same TC. Finding the jigs for the fuel tanks would be the hardest part.

Of course you could probably buy two old ones and have them completely restored for what they'd charge for it.

I'm a little bit worried about what the "new" pilot 100 will do to the archer supply going forward. Maybe someone will come up with an stc baggage door.
 
Racerx said:
Or a Dakota. Can buy a Six cheaper. With what used Dakota's are going for it's a wonder Piper doesn't bring it back in some capacity.
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I bought my Dakota in 2015 for about $120K and now there is one listed on Controller for just shy of $200K. I am not ready to sell because the A36/B36TC that I want has gone up too and I think we are heading for a recession of some sort.
 
DesertNomad said:
I think we are heading for a recession of some sort.
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My main concern at this point is the stock market. Its gone up a lot this year and there was already a general consensus that we were due a major correction before this years runup. Cheap stock financing, lots of new inexperienced robinhood traders buying in because "there's no downside". Lots of people at home making casino like bets because they have nothing else to do. We could be in for a big correction with this...

Or not. The saying holds true that the market can be irrational for far longer than you can stay solvent.
 
I guess equally surprising is that someone hasn't come up with an STC for the arrow. There's an stc for the warrior to essentially be an Archer. Look at all the work that goes into the Geronimo apache.

But then again for probably less money you can hit up Saint aviation and have Jesse build you an RV-10. Faster, wider, new everything. Just can't haul as much.
 
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Matthew K said:
^^^^this

I've got my own reasons for financing. Would rather keep a million in cash on hand and finance a plane than dump 800k into a plane and only have 200k in cash(hypothetical scenario). However, this ONLY places when interests rates are reasonable.

Hindsight2020 has a big point. A lot of people that take advantage of cheap financing do not have cash on hand at all. So one blip in income and they default...
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I would bet that in Western Canada, where I live, 20% of people are just right on that line, to where the bank repossess everything they have besides their clothes, and dog. As I watch all these aircraft sales, I can't help but wonder how long till it gets taken away, because they can't afford it. If interest rates go up a mere 3% it is game over for many. No matter it seems what I shop for, first thing I get asked is how many years I would like to finance it for, and they seem almost shocked, when I tell them it will be cash. Bikes, boats, cars, drones, even the new air compressor for my garage.
 
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DaleB said:
Me too... but like a lot of things, you have to evaluate your own situation and do what's right for you. I have loans on things I could have paid cash for. In fact, just last week I financed the 2-year-old vehicle my wife is now driving. Why? Because the bank will write a 2.69% fixed rate note for 48 months. My investments are earning, net, between double and quadruple that much. Hell, even the corporate bonds we have make more interest than that! So, in my opinion, it would be silly not to finance. We're not overextended, and if I lost my job tomorrow (highly unlikely) we still wouldn't be. So... like most generalizations, whether or not it's a smart thing to finance non-essentials depends on a lot of things, and isn't always a bad idea.
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Which is great for you, I agree. But most people who borrow, are doing so because they have no cash. They can barely scrape together a minimum down payment, and then praying they don't get laid off for even 2 months, because that would have them defaulting on their loans.
 
The economics of personal aircraft are pretty interesting. No matter what you get, it's gonna be a headache and also a ticket to some nice memories. Personally, I think it's all about economies of scale. These aircraft are so niche compared to a depreciating asset like a car, so they can be more widely produced and cheaper to make. This allows consumers to buy a new car every so often where the average aircraft consumer is looking at a 1959 Bonanza with an engine 1000 hours past TBO, fogged up gages, an old rat smell coming from under the seats, and is willing to pay 100,00+ for it. The airframe is an appreciating asset as long as you save up for an overhaul reserve.
 
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So, how do I keep access to my current plane but be sitting down when the music stops?
 
YKA said:
Which is great for you, I agree. But most people who borrow, are doing so because they have no cash. They can barely scrape together a minimum down payment, and then praying they don't get laid off for even 2 months, because that would have them defaulting on their loans.
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Reminds me of a vintage SNL clip with Steve Martin.

https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/dont-buy-stuff/n12020

210f83f0d6ea13a82741e012b527a855.jpg
 
YKA said:
Which is great for you, I agree. But most people who borrow, are doing so because they have no cash. They can barely scrape together a minimum down payment, and then praying they don't get laid off for even 2 months, because that would have them defaulting on their loans.
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Well, we have very little cash, just enough to get by month to month with a few weeks of reserve. The banks aren't paying enough interest to give me even the slightest incentive to keep money there, so every spare buck gets invested. But I do understand your point, and I'm not disagreeing -- I have seen people do really dumb things, including people (like our kids) we've tried to teach how to manage their finances. I have tenants who are paying more in rent than their mortgage payment would be if they'd bought a similar house.

It may have been said before in this thread, but the reason for what you mentioned is people not having a budget and not living within their means. It's hard to tell yourself you can't afford to buy X when everyone else in your situation seems to have X, or two of X. I've talked to people who are behind on their mortgage, but are paying $200 or more per month for cable and/or satellite TV with all the movie channels, plus everyone in the house has the latest cell phones... even the 9 year old is carrying a smartphone. It's insane. "But she needs a cell phone so she can call for a ride from school"... What, the school doesn't have teachers or administrators or phones? Gimmeabreak. Dad always used to say, "When your outgo exceeds your income, then your upkeep becomes your downfall". And it's not like we always had it figured out. It took a long time to learn some of these things. Our schools never taught us anything about managing money, nor did they teach our kids. I think a couple semesters or more of money management should be required at the high school level. Explain to kids how to make and live within a budget, explain how lending works, how savings and investing works, all of it. If I'd fully understood how retirement accounts worked when I was in my 20s, I'd have already retired by now.
 
DaleB said:
It's hard to tell yourself you can't afford to buy X when everyone else in your situation seems to have X, or two of X.
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A friend of mine chided me all last summer at the lake. He had bought a new much bigger boat and kept teasing me about my old small paid for boat. Sad thing is, his new boat, his new cars, everything was financed, and this past fall he lost his job. They have virtually no cash, and they're hurting and selling things off to make the mortgage payment. Wealth isn't the things you own, it's the things you could own.

Dad always used to say, "When your outgo exceeds your income, then your upkeep becomes your downfall".
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My Dad had a thing he told me when I started working "Son, with every paycheck always pay yourself first!" Simple, yet sage.
 
Bill said:
A friend of mine chided me all last summer at the lake. He had bought a new much bigger boat and kept teasing me about my old small paid for boat. Sad thing is, his new boat, his new cars, everything was financed, and this past fall he lost his job. They have virtually no cash, and they're hurting and selling things off to make the mortgage payment. Wealth isn't the things you own, it's the things you could own.



My Dad had a thing he told me when I started working "Son, with every paycheck always pay yourself first!" Simple, yet sage.
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Straight out of the book The Richest Man in Babylon.
 
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