If this became available, would you?

Would you do it?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 10 20.0%
  • No. I don’t trust it.

    Votes: 11 22.0%
  • No. Too much involved for not enough gain

    Votes: 29 58.0%

  • Total voters
    50
It is interesting the number of posters above and other prognosticators including the aviation rag publications, that totally discount or ignore the obvious solution to the present EPA concern about a replacement for leaded 100LL using ridiculous logic or self imposed barriers. MoGas premium has an existing distribution system that would allow almost all GA fuel replacement giving cleaner burning engines, minimum ignition maintenance and has 25 years of positive experience. How long will any 100LL replacement be judged by those same pontificators while we all look for that replacement fuel holy grail?

Agreed, some engines will have to be modified, operated differently, or from multiple fuel sources to accommodate the reduced octane. They are the ones that should be looking for a replacement fuel or engine revisions.
 
It is interesting the number of posters above and other prognosticators including the aviation rag publications, that totally discount or ignore the obvious solution to the present EPA concern about a replacement for leaded 100LL using ridiculous logic or self imposed barriers. MoGas premium has an existing distribution system that would allow almost all GA fuel replacement giving cleaner burning engines, minimum ignition maintenance and has 25 years of positive experience. How long will any 100LL replacement be judged by those same pontificators while we all look for that replacement fuel holy grail?

Agreed, some engines will have to be modified, operated differently, or from multiple fuel sources to accommodate the reduced octane. They are the ones that should be looking for a replacement fuel or engine revisions.

You have to realize the FAA will not go for a widespread Mogas replacement straight up. Gasoline at your neighborhood has station does not have anywhere near the quality control processes that aviation fuel does. Even when we find a fuel to replace 100LL it will have to meet the same quality control and quality assurances that Avgas does.

Honestly anything with a gear box in a small airplane is a hard no for me. The gearbox is another fail point, another expense, and another headache. Even in this hypothetical, while you save a few bucks up front, theoretically, you have the overhaul of the gearbox every 500 hours. You are talking expense, and additional chance of maintenance induced failure. Even some of the Lycoming/Continentals that use gearboxes have a bad rap, have to be treated special, and in some cases get a popular STC to convert it to a straight drive like the Cessna 175.
 
The proverbial junk yard is littered with attempts to reliably transfer auto engines to planes at scale.

Great if someone could pull it off and give us another option.
 
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I’d sooner spend 5x and put a turbine on it - faster, more reliable, cool factor, and HSI/TBO will last me to the end of my flying.

I don’t believe auto engines (jury is out on diesels) belong in the environment that GA operates in. Even matching displacement, auto engines can’t generate the right amount of torque and aren’t derated sufficiently to last.

Full disclosure: my uncle used to own one of them VW powered contraptions.
 
Cooling. In cars and trucks that big ol LS is mounted behind a big radiator. So, how, with the small little openings in the front of a GA plane, are we going to cool an LS under pretty good load?
 
Cooling. In cars and trucks that big ol LS is mounted behind a big radiator. So, how, with the small little openings in the front of a GA plane, are we going to cool an LS under pretty good load?

Cooling is a concern, but not impossible to solve. Cars are also not traveling at 150-200 mph regularly. F1 cars have tiny radiators and value aerodynamics more than your average GA plane. In any case, this is all figured out in my given scenario.
 
You can use the same prop you are using now
Only if you want to fly backwards.

An LS delivers its power at the flywheel end of the engine. The crankshaft turns clockwise as seen from the cockpit. A reduction that uses spur gearing (most common, in order to get the thrust line up) reverses the rotation, so the prop will turn counterclockwise. You'll need a prop pitched the opposite direction, such as one from the right engine of a counterrotating twin. It's a more expensive feathering prop, too. Or a specially-ordered prop from the manufacturer, an opportunity to charge more.
 
Even matching displacement, auto engines can’t generate the right amount of torque and aren’t derated sufficiently to last.
It's horsepower that matters. Aircraft engines (direct drive) are designed to produce max torque at lower RPM, near the redline. Auto engines have much higher redlines, so torque peaks can be higher. It's RPM times torque that gives us horses. Torque by itself is a useless thing. I can pull hard on my torque wrench and put 150 foot-pounds into a big fastener, but if the fastener isn't rotating, absolutely no horsepower is being generated.

The gear drive reduces the RPM and raises the torque to make the HP useful to a propeller. If the drive cuts the RPM in half, the torque is doubled, minus a bit for efficiency losses in the gearing. HP is therefore maintained.
 
My C172 has a Corsair V8 engine conversion and it works far better than the original Lycoming.... original engine cost me over $60/hr with fuel, oil and overhaul reserves, the V8 is less than $20/hr. So, it makes economic sense for me as I teach my daughter to fly. It also makes it easier to fly due to a no carb heat or mixture controls, just a FADEC throttle. Also, no need for a run up if not using AVGAS (engine is flex fuel rated so it uses multiple fuels).

The engine starts with a push of a button and digitally displays any faults, so a lot less checklist items to learn and accomplish. It also way out performs any stock C172. So, I would not discourage looking into other engine options out there and newer technologies.
 
How about this? A 4000 hour TBO diesel you can put anywhere in the fuselage turning an alternator/generator, and have electric motor(s) turning a prop(s). No gearboxes to replace every 500 hours. You can configure the generator to produce all the power you want at low RPMs, moderate to high loads on the engine to run it as efficiently as possible. Heck, you can even have a 5 minute power reserve to keep the props running if you loose the engine.

Return of Skymaster .....

No thanks, way too heavy, also less energy efficient than driving the prop with the engine. Diesel electric works for locomotives because it's very difficult to create a mechanical transmission to accept that much torque in a relatively narrow package.
 
To clarify my prior post regarding FADEC throttle (per an earlier post RE electronic throttle control issues).....my C172 throttle is actually a mechanical linkage to the engine, in fact it’s the original C172 cable throttle control, whereas most FADECs are electronic and use wires to send signals to move an electric servo. This system results in potential single points of failures and not a good aircraft design, and would not meet FAR part 33 Regulations.

The Corsair system uses a Delphi system with redundant throttle position transducers on the throttle body that send the throttle position signals to both electronic controllers, so even if both sensors fail, the throttle can be mechanically controlled by the throttle cable (the system would then use manifold pressure to calculate mixture if working or it defaults to a mixture setting for 5000 ft and 80% power ) . The EFI system calculates optimum fuel/air mixture and automatically adjust with throttle movements, so it’s still considered a FADEC system even with the mechanical linkage.

as earlier post pointed out, automotive engines need considerable engineering to make it work well. This would be expensive for a single design, far more than a new certified engine.
 
I have no interest in this. To begin with, the weight and balance won’t work. Where is the radiator? Whee is the redundant ignition system? The RPM range is far above that of a maximum propeller speed. You want to bury an electric fuel pump in the bottom of each tank? You want to turn the engine backwards so you can Mount the prop to the crankshaft? That puts the water pump and belted accessories against the firewall.

if you solve all these problems just give me a call for an additional list.
 
I have no interest in this. To begin with, the weight and balance won’t work. Where is the radiator? Whee is the redundant ignition system? The RPM range is far above that of a maximum propeller speed. You want to bury an electric fuel pump in the bottom of each tank? You want to turn the engine backwards so you can Mount the prop to the crankshaft? That puts the water pump and belted accessories against the firewall.

if you solve all these problems just give me a call for an additional list.

Why does the accessory belt/belted accessories bring against the firewall pose a problem? GM shoved the LS4 v8 transverse between the wheel wells in my 07 Grand Prix GXP. Accessories and belt were within a 1/2" of the strut tower. Didn't really pose much of a problem from an operational or maintenance standpoint.
 
Its an interesting idea but is and will always remain as such. Far to many things that are against it to make it work.
 
Why does the accessory belt/belted accessories bring against the firewall pose a problem? GM shoved the LS4 v8 transverse between the wheel wells in my 07 Grand Prix GXP. Accessories and belt were within a 1/2" of the strut tower. Didn't really pose much of a problem from an operational or maintenance standpoint.

Just seems like a Rube Goldberg arrangement to me. Those accessories are tough enough to get to when they are in the front. That’s a minor point in this swap anyway. There are many valid reasons for aircraft to use aircraft engines.
 
Just seems like a Rube Goldberg arrangement to me. Those accessories are tough enough to get to when they are in the front. That’s a minor point in this swap anyway. There are many valid reasons for aircraft to use aircraft engines.
I get that it's unconventional for aircraft, but it's done in mid-engine applications all the time. I just thought the concern about accessory belt was odd because it's not something that typically needs a lot of attention.
 
Mbdigad man-

Not sure where you received your engineering degree or expertise on engine conversions. From your less than informed comments RE your list of insurmountable issues, the very items you list as problems are actually benefits, and proven so by all other engine industries being far evolved beyond what you believe to be the more reliable and only solution. Liquid cooled blocks offer far superior cooling and anti metal fatigue, that’s why all modern transport engines are liquid cooled-including motorcycles, heavy equipment, buses, trucks and certified diesel aircraft engines... .....according to you I guess they all got it wrong.

even modern lawnmowers use electric fuel pumps, not carburetors for good reason. Again, it seems everyone also got it wrong over the last 3 decades. Modern car engines are far more reliable than any piston aircraft engine(piston aircraft engines average 1 failure every 3600 hr, whereas automotive engines have .5% failure rates at 12000 hrs).

Please explain to me what difference it makes mounting the crank shaft facing forward? They are mounted sideways in cars and facing forward in boats? A GM V8 car engine is used mounted vertically on a outboard engine model. Please enlighten me to why it is different in a plane? Quiet Aviation flew cessnas flew with V8’s not only mounted facing forward, but also mounted inverted (upside down)....as well as many experimentals. The aircraft didn’t fall out of the sky, as one reading your post may believe.

Regarding your concern of weight: what is the delta between an aluminum V6 or V8 and an IO-360 or 540 or 470? And why in your opinion will this not work? Is it the moments of inertia, crank pulse fatigue, asymmetric prop shaft loading and resultant bearing stress, divergent oscillations ? Please give specifics based on your experience and/or engineering background.

What is issue with drive belt on firewall side and why won’t it work? I can remove and service the entire accessory drive system fine on my c172 and all moving parts have FAR 23 minimum clearances at max bending travel. Is there something I am missing with running accessory drive on firewall side? Please explain your reason for blankety stating this configuration just won’t work.

your concern item of higher RPM is puzzling. Many aircraft piston engines use gear reduction, as well as all jet and turbo props. Certified aircraft piston diesels use gear boxes. Please help me understand why this can not work so the industry can stop and recall all such physically impossible contraptions immediately!


Other industries have been successfully converting auto engines for their mission/application for decades. Inboard boat engines, gas, diesels and even outboards, use modified car engines in far more harsh environments than any aircraft, yet they have proven reliable and robust even under far more stress and loading than an aircraft prop. In fact, modern auto engines are for more tested and dependable than any aircraft piston engine. Several auto engines have been FAA and EASA certified from such as Toyota, not to mention current certified diesels modified from a Mercedes Benz car engine. NASA concluded some automotive engines would make better alternatives with the right engineering.

The experimental world has used conversions with exceptional safety when properly modified, especially considering all are mostly amateur built without the engineering and production resources of established manufacturers. Auto conversions have engineering challenges, but they can work even better than legacy aircraft pistons that have remained in a technology frozen animation for 70 years with the right engineering and resources.

you stated that if I wanted any more reasons why auto conversions simply won’t work to ask......please list the other many reasons you allude to, but please include basis for each of your conclusions, rather than mere opinionated mis-proven statements that seem to lack any foundation.
 

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Sooneraviator

I don’t know of any concern or issues with a belt drive system on firewall side, other than having the room to service that side of the engine. As with anything in aviation, there’s trade offs. Moving the engine forward moves EOW CG forward, but allows more room for servicing. So trick is likely to move it forward just enough to allow enough room to service most of the needed items when designing engine mount.

I did have to replace an alternator once (upgraded to a higher amp), and although it was a tight fit between it and the firewall, it only took about 30 minutes with no special tools. There is a belt wear indicator easily visible under the stock C172 cowl inspection door that has a red/ green mark that indicates belts proper tension and wear limits. The belt is also wider than a car belt and fits into deeper grooved pulleys than my cars belt, so it will likely last longer....service manual calls replacement every 3 years or when any pulley is replaced. The 100 hour inspection calls for visually inspecting the belt and pulleys which is easily done with just a flashlight and mirror.
 
I answered no, not because of the issues around using concerted auto engines. There are many, and most are well known, but could probably be overcome. Have been overcome, in some cases. But there would need to be a very significant cost advantage — VERY significant— for such an idea to succeed commercially or achieve wide acceptance. I think that statement is borne out by the number of auto conversions actually flying in type certificated airplanes right now.
 
@AlphaPilotFlyer did you buy your plane with the conversion, or did you do it yourself?

Was there supposed to be an STC put together from your plane, or was it just built as a recreational engineering project (like Mike Patey's Draco)?
 
Personally, I would want manual control over the FADEC in that. It's a cool thought, but I would personally pass.
 
You can use the same prop you are using now
How exactly would you use the same prop? You should also keep in mind this is not a new concept. Lots of people have tried using LS series engines in aircraft. There are a few RV10’s flying with them. Almost 100% of them make a off field landing sooner or later. The vans series has long seen attempts to convert auto engines. They account for a dramatically higher incidence of inflight power loss despite often having long development programs and big engineering efforts. Currently a decent RV8 is 100 to 120,000. Auto conversions RV8’s are worth less than half that. There is a reason.
 
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Mbdigad man-

Not sure where you received your engineering degree or expertise on engine conversions. From your less than informed comments RE your list of insurmountable issues, the very items you list as problems are actually benefits, and proven so by all other engine industries being far evolved beyond what you believe to be the more reliable and only solution. Liquid cooled blocks offer far superior cooling and anti metal fatigue, that’s why all modern transport engines are liquid cooled-including motorcycles, heavy equipment, buses, trucks and certified diesel aircraft engines... .....according to you I guess they all got it wrong.

even modern lawnmowers use electric fuel pumps, not carburetors for good reason. Again, it seems everyone also got it wrong over the last 3 decades. Modern car engines are far more reliable than any piston aircraft engine(piston aircraft engines average 1 failure every 3600 hr, whereas automotive engines have .5% failure rates at 12000 hrs).

Please explain to me what difference it makes mounting the crank shaft facing forward? They are mounted sideways in cars and facing forward in boats? A GM V8 car engine is used mounted vertically on a outboard engine model. Please enlighten me to why it is different in a plane? Quiet Aviation flew cessnas flew with V8’s not only mounted facing forward, but also mounted inverted (upside down)....as well as many experimentals. The aircraft didn’t fall out of the sky, as one reading your post may believe.

Regarding your concern of weight: what is the delta between an aluminum V6 or V8 and an IO-360 or 540 or 470? And why in your opinion will this not work? Is it the moments of inertia, crank pulse fatigue, asymmetric prop shaft loading and resultant bearing stress, divergent oscillations ? Please give specifics based on your experience and/or engineering background.

What is issue with drive belt on firewall side and why won’t it work? I can remove and service the entire accessory drive system fine on my c172 and all moving parts have FAR 23 minimum clearances at max bending travel. Is there something I am missing with running accessory drive on firewall side? Please explain your reason for blankety stating this configuration just won’t work.

your concern item of higher RPM is puzzling. Many aircraft piston engines use gear reduction, as well as all jet and turbo props. Certified aircraft piston diesels use gear boxes. Please help me understand why this can not work so the industry can stop and recall all such physically impossible contraptions immediately!


Other industries have been successfully converting auto engines for their mission/application for decades. Inboard boat engines, gas, diesels and even outboards, use modified car engines in far more harsh environments than any aircraft, yet they have proven reliable and robust even under far more stress and loading than an aircraft prop. In fact, modern auto engines are for more tested and dependable than any aircraft piston engine. Several auto engines have been FAA and EASA certified from such as Toyota, not to mention current certified diesels modified from a Mercedes Benz car engine. NASA concluded some automotive engines would make better alternatives with the right engineering.

The experimental world has used conversions with exceptional safety when properly modified, especially considering all are mostly amateur built without the engineering and production resources of established manufacturers. Auto conversions have engineering challenges, but they can work even better than legacy aircraft pistons that have remained in a technology frozen animation for 70 years with the right engineering and resources.

you stated that if I wanted any more reasons why auto conversions simply won’t work to ask......please list the other many reasons you allude to, but please include basis for each of your conclusions, rather than mere opinionated mis-proven statements that seem to lack any foundation.

Please show me where I indicated that there were any insurmountable issues. Also, where did I so much as imply that this unconventional aircraft, if completed would “fall out of the sky.” Nothing in this unconventional swap is insurmountable. There would be nothing insurmountable in putting the IO540 in my car either, but it would be a significant hassle with no gain, and keeping in mind that being an airplane, is life and death serious stuff.

My engineering degree is electrical, but I have indeed done a few engine swaps back in the day. That said, however, I have yet to take an engine clearly not designed even close to the intended purpose, turned it backwards and force fitted into place. I have done some unconventional things in my life and career, but this one is flying in the face of common sense.

I am completely aware of the advantages of liquid cooled engines. In this case, the cooling system is just one more, albeit not insurmountable, engineering challenge, with the gain being that it facilitates the use of an engine not engineered for the purpose.

Many thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of hours, have gone into the development of engines for the specific purpose of aviation use. Automotive engines are carefully developed for automotive use and today’s engines are absolutely remarkable for their purpose.

Early in my career I was introduced to the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!) This swap does not meet the criteria of keeping it simple. Nothing with such an application is simple, but keeping it as simple as possible minimizes the chance for error. Error in construction, error in engineering,.....

Not sure why all the vitriol in your response. I was stating my own thoughts. You can state yours. I don’t care if you use a humongous rubber band and wind it up. It’s your aircraft and your life.
 
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How exactly would you use the same prop? You should also keep in mind this is not a new concept. Lots of people have tried using LS series engines in aircraft. There are a few RV10’s flying with them. Almost 100% of them make a off field landing sooner or later. The vans series has long seen attempts to convert auto engines. They account for a dramatically higher incidence of inflight power loss despite often having long development programs and big engineering efforts. Currently a decent RV8 is 100 to 120,000. Auto conversions RV8’s are worth less than half that. There is a reason.

Perhaps you should read my hypothetical scenario a little better. We are not working with reality here. All problems are resolved. How they are resolved isn't relevant to this discussion. And this is purely a "what if". This is really a simple poll.
 
My C172 has a Corsair V8 engine conversion and it works far better than the original Lycoming.... original engine cost me over $60/hr with fuel, oil and overhaul reserves, the V8 is less than $20/hr. So, it makes economic sense for me as I teach my daughter to fly. It also makes it easier to fly due to a no carb heat or mixture controls, just a FADEC throttle. Also, no need for a run up if not using AVGAS (engine is flex fuel rated so it uses multiple fuels).

The engine starts with a push of a button and digitally displays any faults, so a lot less checklist items to learn and accomplish. It also way out performs any stock C172. So, I would not discourage looking into other engine options out there and newer technologies.
Curious, I don't believe there to be an STC for this so how and where can you fly it? All the electronicals sound great and all but the weak point in conversions has always been the psru. Also, if there's a manual over ride in the FADEC...it's not Fadec. If there's a manual over ride it's an EEC/ECU.
 
Sorry for veering off original topic. I’ll answer earlier posted question and go-around.

I think most of the issues surrounding failures of conversions were due to lack of resources in their development. Many early conversions were simply experimenters taking engines from a junk yard. Electronic fuel injection systems and their programming for car mission, including anti theft and limp modes that would shut the engine off or limit RPM to just above idle, was also a factor early on. Most failures were not caused by mechanical engine issues but ignition and fuel delivery component failures and lack of any meaningful redundancy.

Concerns RE single FADEC spot on with automotive systems. The system I have in c172 is a redundant EFI system. Whereas most EFI systems use throttle by wire like a car gas pedal that sends an electrical signal to a servo on the engine, my system uses the original throttle cable to manually move the throttle valve. There are 2 independent EFI systems as well, both with own battery, computer, critical sensors, fuel pump, fuel filter and pressure regulator. The back up system is tested before takeoff by depowering the main system and checking that engine reignites within 1/2 second....which is easily done during taxi by pushing test button. There is no need to stop for engine run-up unless leaded AVGAS is used and spark plugs need to be heated up (to burn off carbon). The computers are Delphi and have been used in cars, trucks, boats, industrial equipment and military engines for over a decade. The same engineering firm that developed the calibrations for this exact engine controller model for General Motors also developed this system specifically for the aircraft mission. The system has several layers of redundancy......I can fail the main system in flight with test button, and the aux system restores it within .5 seconds with the prop windmilling. It’s pretty cool. I also like that there’s no mixture or carb heat.

It come as as a firewall forward kit for the c172 and 182, but it’s not available in US due to liability issues. The manufacturer started FAA cert process but could not get any manufacturers liability insurance so there was no point. My Skyhawk is experimental. There’s photos of the engine at corsairv8.com

RE PSRU, you are correct that’s it’s been a historical problem. The reasons for this are somewhat complicated. The unit on Corsair kit V8 is a made by an long established airboat gearbox manufacturer that’s modified for the aircraft. It’s rated and proven at more than twice the torque and HP of the original aircraft engine limit, but this overbuilt approach adds weight. I’ve read some home built PSRUs failed because the engine produced more torque than box was rated, which is easy to do with a 500 HP V8....my engine is flat rated to a max of 220 HP which is max the c172 was ever certified to.
The early version had a chip and temp detector that would display a warning in the digital display. I think most design failures were attributed to shaft fatigue caused by cylinder compression pulses and inertia of the gears amplifying the torsion.

RE prop: it’s a Sensenich wood composite. There’s a photo on the website


RE auto conversions worth less on RVs. I’m not familiar with resale values but expect so. The conversions out there I researched are mostly home built and lack meaningful redundancy, and auto conversions have a bad rep from early on experiences in the experimental communities. I spoke with more than one pilot that experienced engine failures. For me, I had a over TBO original engine that was going to cost me about $29k to overhaul, and likely needed a new prop, and the airframe was only worth about $10k. The V8 alternative made sense, mostly because operating cost went from $60/hr to about $19 so I didn’t feel as guilty flying it. After selling original engine and prop, it cost me about same as overhaul but everything was new. A buddy used it to build time to get his ATP for a fraction of the $125/hr rental he was using. So, it’s probably not for everybody, but it works for me. Again, sorry for getting off original topic.

so, to answer original post, Yes, I would and did consider V8 or other option if there is some real meaningful engineering and mods to address conversion issues. Flying a 40 year old antique at its unreasonable operating cost didn’t make sense and greatly reduced how much I flew it. The extra features as a simple start button, lack of mixture and carb heat, burning non-leaded gas and eliminating a 5 min run up appealed to me. GA pistons are stuck in the 1950s with absurd op cost and we need to find alternative solutions. If not an auto conversion, than some other engine alternative should be considered.
 
Sorry for veering off original topic. I’ll answer earlier posted question and go-around.

I think most of the issues surrounding failures of conversions were due to lack of resources in their development. Many early conversions were simply experimenters taking engines from a junk yard. Electronic fuel injection systems and their programming for car mission, including anti theft and limp modes that would shut the engine off or limit RPM to just above idle, was also a factor early on. Most failures were not caused by mechanical engine issues but ignition and fuel delivery component failures and lack of any meaningful redundancy.

Concerns RE single FADEC spot on with automotive systems. The system I have in c172 is a redundant EFI system. Whereas most EFI systems use throttle by wire like a car gas pedal that sends an electrical signal to a servo on the engine, my system uses the original throttle cable to manually move the throttle valve. There are 2 independent EFI systems as well, both with own battery, computer, critical sensors, fuel pump, fuel filter and pressure regulator. The back up system is tested before takeoff by depowering the main system and checking that engine reignites within 1/2 second....which is easily done during taxi by pushing test button. There is no need to stop for engine run-up unless leaded AVGAS is used and spark plugs need to be heated up (to burn off carbon). The computers are Delphi and have been used in cars, trucks, boats, industrial equipment and military engines for over a decade. The same engineering firm that developed the calibrations for this exact engine controller model for General Motors also developed this system specifically for the aircraft mission. The system has several layers of redundancy......I can fail the main system in flight with test button, and the aux system restores it within .5 seconds with the prop windmilling. It’s pretty cool. I also like that there’s no mixture or carb heat.

It come as as a firewall forward kit for the c172 and 182, but it’s not available in US due to liability issues. The manufacturer started FAA cert process but could not get any manufacturers liability insurance so there was no point. My Skyhawk is experimental. There’s photos of the engine at corsairv8.com

RE PSRU, you are correct that’s it’s been a historical problem. The reasons for this are somewhat complicated. The unit on Corsair kit V8 is a made by an long established airboat gearbox manufacturer that’s modified for the aircraft. It’s rated and proven at more than twice the torque and HP of the original aircraft engine limit, but this overbuilt approach adds weight. I’ve read some home built PSRUs failed because the engine produced more torque than box was rated, which is easy to do with a 500 HP V8....my engine is flat rated to a max of 220 HP which is max the c172 was ever certified to.
The early version had a chip and temp detector that would display a warning in the digital display. I think most design failures were attributed to shaft fatigue caused by cylinder compression pulses and inertia of the gears amplifying the torsion.

RE prop: it’s a Sensenich wood composite. There’s a photo on the website


RE auto conversions worth less on RVs. I’m not familiar with resale values but expect so. The conversions out there I researched are mostly home built and lack meaningful redundancy, and auto conversions have a bad rep from early on experiences in the experimental communities. I spoke with more than one pilot that experienced engine failures. For me, I had a over TBO original engine that was going to cost me about $29k to overhaul, and likely needed a new prop, and the airframe was only worth about $10k. The V8 alternative made sense, mostly because operating cost went from $60/hr to about $19 so I didn’t feel as guilty flying it. After selling original engine and prop, it cost me about same as overhaul but everything was new. A buddy used it to build time to get his ATP for a fraction of the $125/hr rental he was using. So, it’s probably not for everybody, but it works for me. Again, sorry for getting off original topic.

so, to answer original post, Yes, I would and did consider V8 or other option if there is some real meaningful engineering and mods to address conversion issues. Flying a 40 year old antique at its unreasonable operating cost didn’t make sense and greatly reduced how much I flew it. The extra features as a simple start button, lack of mixture and carb heat, burning non-leaded gas and eliminating a 5 min run up appealed to me. GA pistons are stuck in the 1950s with absurd op cost and we need to find alternative solutions. If not an auto conversion, than some other engine alternative should be considered.

how much time do you have on your conversion now? Any issues?
 
In the interest of full disclosure can you tell us what your relationship with Corsair aviation is?
 
Being a certified, but experimental aircraft...doesn't that severely limit how and when you can legally fly it? I was looking into a Cherokee that was experimental due to a number of non STC'd mods and unless I was going to show it or race it, pretty much useless.
 
Bull Moose is a company that modifies the Murphy Moose to use an LS3 with gear reduction. The engine puts out 450 Hp and has been flying for a while. That's more power than I need or want, but if you're flying a big plane it seems to work. Here's the story in Kitplanes Magazine: https://www.kitplanes.com/meet-the-bull-moose/
 
Mbdigad man-

Not sure where you received your engineering degree or expertise on engine conversions. From your less than informed comments RE your list of insurmountable issues, the very items you list as problems are actually benefits, and proven so by all other engine industries being far evolved beyond what you believe to be the more reliable and only solution. Liquid cooled blocks offer far superior cooling and anti metal fatigue, that’s why all modern transport engines are liquid cooled-including motorcycles, heavy equipment, buses, trucks and certified diesel aircraft engines... .....according to you I guess they all got it wrong.

even modern lawnmowers use electric fuel pumps, not carburetors for good reason. Again, it seems everyone also got it wrong over the last 3 decades. Modern car engines are far more reliable than any piston aircraft engine(piston aircraft engines average 1 failure every 3600 hr, whereas automotive engines have .5% failure rates at 12000 hrs).

Please explain to me what difference it makes mounting the crank shaft facing forward? They are mounted sideways in cars and facing forward in boats? A GM V8 car engine is used mounted vertically on a outboard engine model. Please enlighten me to why it is different in a plane? Quiet Aviation flew cessnas flew with V8’s not only mounted facing forward, but also mounted inverted (upside down)....as well as many experimentals. The aircraft didn’t fall out of the sky, as one reading your post may believe.

Regarding your concern of weight: what is the delta between an aluminum V6 or V8 and an IO-360 or 540 or 470? And why in your opinion will this not work? Is it the moments of inertia, crank pulse fatigue, asymmetric prop shaft loading and resultant bearing stress, divergent oscillations ? Please give specifics based on your experience and/or engineering background.

What is issue with drive belt on firewall side and why won’t it work? I can remove and service the entire accessory drive system fine on my c172 and all moving parts have FAR 23 minimum clearances at max bending travel. Is there something I am missing with running accessory drive on firewall side? Please explain your reason for blankety stating this configuration just won’t work.

your concern item of higher RPM is puzzling. Many aircraft piston engines use gear reduction, as well as all jet and turbo props. Certified aircraft piston diesels use gear boxes. Please help me understand why this can not work so the industry can stop and recall all such physically impossible contraptions immediately!


Other industries have been successfully converting auto engines for their mission/application for decades. Inboard boat engines, gas, diesels and even outboards, use modified car engines in far more harsh environments than any aircraft, yet they have proven reliable and robust even under far more stress and loading than an aircraft prop. In fact, modern auto engines are for more tested and dependable than any aircraft piston engine. Several auto engines have been FAA and EASA certified from such as Toyota, not to mention current certified diesels modified from a Mercedes Benz car engine. NASA concluded some automotive engines would make better alternatives with the right engineering.

The experimental world has used conversions with exceptional safety when properly modified, especially considering all are mostly amateur built without the engineering and production resources of established manufacturers. Auto conversions have engineering challenges, but they can work even better than legacy aircraft pistons that have remained in a technology frozen animation for 70 years with the right engineering and resources.

you stated that if I wanted any more reasons why auto conversions simply won’t work to ask......please list the other many reasons you allude to, but please include basis for each of your conclusions, rather than mere opinionated mis-proven statements that seem to lack any foundation.
Every lawn mower and yard equipment I have fueled by gasoline has a carburetor. What kind of lawn mowers have fuel injection?
 
Bull Moose is a company that modifies the Murphy Moose to use an LS3 with gear reduction. The engine puts out 450 Hp and has been flying for a while. That's more power than I need or want, but if you're flying a big plane it seems to work. Here's the story in Kitplanes Magazine: https://www.kitplanes.com/meet-the-bull-moose/

That's a pretty cool setup. If the lifespan matched what an typical IO-540 then I can't imagine why it wouldn't be attractive when it came time for any certified airframe to get a new engine. If you're spending $40K no matter what, why not get the package that gives you more HP and allows you to run Mogas? Obviously there'd have to be STCs for each application, but it's not as if the market isn't there.
 
It come as as a firewall forward kit for the c172 and 182, but it’s not available in US due to liability issues.

Interesting - perhaps this gets at the real root of the problem. As a mechanical engineer, piston GA engines strike me as antiques, from 70-80 years ago. The barriers to GA innovation in the US are substantial, and most flight schools of today show it.
 
I have owned two General motors vehicles in my life. Both were complete junk, so no way. If you put in a 6.4 hemi from a Challenger I would then consider it.
 
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