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Top Dawg

Filing Flight Plan
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Top Dawg
Hello Everyone,
I'm new to the forum and new to the aviation scene. Since turning 55 on Christmas Eve, it's time to fill a bucket list item. Since childhood I've always wanted to swim with the fish in the sea and take flight with the birds in the air. Well, the first portion has been achieved. I am actually a SCUBA instructor and a certified tech diver to a depth of 250'.... Now.... it's time to FLY with the birds.... I have a flight school about 10 miles away which I will be stopping by this next week and doing a little preflight research as to my options... Thinking a "true" simulator may be helpful... I realize that many sims are nothing more than arcade based sims... (which I have flown) But I'm looking for a REALISTIC program.... as well as controls.... I already have a computer capable of running a flight sim. My rig is actually a racecar sim (iRacing) at this point and would most likely have MORE THAN ENOUGH HORSEPOWER to run a flight sim... But... just like my racecar sim... controls are EVERYTHING!!! NO PLASTIC PS3 GARBAGE!!! I want real controls... Looking at X plane 11 or MS2020.... It seems that X11 may be a better running program considering the reviews are claiming bugs in 2020... Anybody with advice/experience would be GREATLY APPRECIATED!!
THANKS,
Joe
 
If you're just starting out, forget about the sim and climb into a real airplane. There are all kinds of "seat of the pants" sensations and views and skills for which the sim is not a good substitute, no matter how non-garbage.

Sims are great for *later* in training, to practice "procedural" things like navigation or entering a pattern or doing instruments-only flight... but for the "first" lessons about aircraft control and basic maneuvers and stalls and landings, the best way to learn is with the real thing. Call the flight school and go up!
 
Top Dawg said:
Hello Everyone,
I'm new to the forum and new to the aviation scene. Since turning 55 on Christmas Eve, it's time to fill a bucket list item. Since childhood I've always wanted to swim with the fish in the sea and take flight with the birds in the air. Well, the first portion has been achieved. I am actually a SCUBA instructor and a certified tech diver to a depth of 250'.... Now.... it's time to FLY with the birds.... I have a flight school about 10 miles away which I will be stopping by this next week and doing a little preflight research as to my options... Thinking a "true" simulator may be helpful... I realize that many sims are nothing more than arcade based sims... (which I have flown) But I'm looking for a REALISTIC program.... as well as controls.... I already have a computer capable of running a flight sim. My rig is actually a racecar sim (iRacing) at this point and would most likely have MORE THAN ENOUGH HORSEPOWER to run a flight sim... But... just like my racecar sim... controls are EVERYTHING!!! NO PLASTIC PS3 GARBAGE!!! I want real controls... Looking at X plane 11 or MS2020.... It seems that X11 may be a better running program considering the reviews are claiming bugs in 2020... Anybody with advice/experience would be GREATLY APPRECIATED!!
THANKS,
Joe
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Unless you go for the certified Xplane version with high-end controls, anything you get will be a game.
Kath has the right answer....get into the airplane and avoid the home sim for now.
 
murphey said:
Unless you go for the certified Xplane version with high-end controls, anything you get will be a game.
Kath has the right answer....get into the airplane and avoid the home sim for now.
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I get the "game" thing.... I'm not one to go CHEAP!! Plastic is NOT MY THANG!! Hence the reason my racecar sim has a robotic servo head for force feedback and hydraulic pedals... Not spring tension or plastic gear driven... I also realize that RC flight is different as well.... but the dynamics of flight are still the same. I will keep you all posted as to my progression.... Tomorrow will start the rest of my flying career... private pilot anyway...
Thank you all for your input!!
Joe
 
Top Dawg said:
I also realize that RC flight is different as well.... but the dynamics of flight are still the same.
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RC flying (in the traditional sense, not today's autopilot stabilized drones or lightweight foam toys) is a great background for flying the real thing.
 
Dana said:
RC flying (in the traditional sense, not today's autopilot stabilized drones or lightweight foam toys) is a great background for flying the real thing.
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EXACTLY!! I'm NOT talking about my Mavic pro... I'm talking fixed winged planes... Not only flying them, but building them as well... Making sure CG is correct.... trimming out the plane.... Stalling.... and RECOVERING from a stall.... Crosswind takeoffs and landings.... Sure it's different.... BUT THE SAME.... I'm sure it will be different.... All I'm saying is, I'm not going in BLIND... Just like driving my real racecar vs the sim.... the G-forces aren't there and you don't get the motion.... But my times have dropped by using the sim as a tool... That is what my goal is here.
 
Top Dawg said:
It seems that X11 may be a better running program considering the reviews are claiming bugs in 2020... Anybody with advice/experience would be GREATLY APPRECIATED!!
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HI Joe, I use xplane FOR FUN, but it is not a replacement for getting up in a REAL AEROPLANE and experiencing it using all of your senses. I would suggest taking a DISCOVERY FLIGHT and seeing for yourself what it's like. That's what I did several years ago. Several TENS OF THOUSANDS of dollars later, I have my private pilot cert with instrument rating. Even bought our very OWN FLYING MACHINE to help scratch the itch whenever the urge strikes (which is OFTEN).

You will get lots of good advice here as you start out your journey toward your certs and ratings. Like getting your MEDICAL before progressing too far and then only flying LOW WING aircraft and eventually buying a BONANZA.

GOOD LUCK!
 
FWIW, I’ve had several of my student pilots do surprisingly well the first few flight lessons. Things like holding altitude and heading. I then inquire about their background to find they play alot of computer SIMS.

i had a few years of RC time before starting my pilot training. I understood basic aerodynamics and the necessity to KEEP THE NOSE DOWN when you get too slow.

Add in that dreamy Martha King and a CFI, then you’ll be a REAL PILOT in no time.
 
Deelee said:
HI Joe, I use xplane FOR FUN, but it is not a replacement for getting up in a REAL AEROPLANE and experiencing it using all of your senses. I would suggest taking a DISCOVERY FLIGHT and seeing for yourself what it's like. That's what I did several years ago. Several TENS OF THOUSANDS of dollars later, I have my private pilot cert with instrument rating. Even bought our very OWN FLYING MACHINE to help scratch the itch whenever the urge strikes (which is OFTEN).

You will get lots of good advice here as you start out your journey toward your certs and ratings. Like getting your MEDICAL before progressing too far and then only flying LOW WING aircraft and eventually buying a BONANZA.

GOOD LUCK!
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Right on!!! I've actually flown with a buddy in a 182... Held the controls and actually flew for a good few minutes.... Seemed like hours.... But didn't have the time/funds to even think about my own card.... But now it's time... We are actually looking to get some land in Central Oregon and add a strip.... not so sure a low wing would be choice.. Although, that is merely a land animal thing... My initial thoughts are a 182 in the 80-00 year range. Something I can fly into smaller ports... So the BUSH PLANE attitude would most likely fit my style rather well.... But again, this is all from a NEWBIE!!!
Joe
 
You're getting pretty far ahead of yourself.

Option 1: Sitting in your favorite gaming chair. AC is cranked. 350 cal of caffiene and ice in a cup. Youre flying the sim and get a little bored or its no going the way you like so you switch it off or reset or whatever.

Option 2: its +89F and sweaty in the plane. You have the vents cracked open but its just warm air. You're turning base to final. Hands are sweaty now and you're wondering what dipstick aircraft designer made the yoke all metal and slippery. In 15 seconds you'll have completed one, if not the most memorable experiences in your life. You will have landed a plane with no help or lifeline. Solo!

Please, switch off the sim. Verify you can get medical (much more at stake and more to answer than the SCUBA form). Go fly. You will love it.
 
Sinistar said:
You're getting pretty far ahead of yourself.

Option 1: Sitting in your favorite gaming chair. AC is cranked. 350 cal of caffiene and ice in a cup. Youre flying the sim and get a little bored or its no going the way you like so you switch it off or reset or whatever.

Option 2: its +89F and sweaty in the plane. You have the vents cracked open but its just warm air. You're turning base to final. Hands are sweaty now and you're wondering what dipstick aircraft designer made the yoke all metal and slippery. In 15 seconds you'll have completed one, if not the most memorable experiences in your life. You will have landed a plane with no help or lifeline. Solo!

Please, switch off the sim. Verify you can get medical (much more at stake and more to answer than the SCUBA form). Go fly. You will love it.
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While I appreciate your response. I beg to disagree a touch with your SCUBA comment. Are you saying that there is more at stake screwing up flying.... Rather than diving? Maybe at 60' in Hawaii. But try 250' in Puget Sound..... If you honestly feel your chances of survival are worse falling out of the sky in a plane(1 atmosphere) vs ascending to the surface in an out of control inflated drysuit from 250' (7 atmosphere) you may be surprised.
I also get your point of using a simulator as a CHEAT!!! But again, let's just agree to disagree. Short of putting my fire suit and helmet.... My simulator IS NOT for playing games..... it IS for training. For some, it may be a way to say... OOPS..... OH WELL.... For others, not so much.... I guess it's all in how you look at it... I'm also not looking to simulate a 300-500k plane with a 200 dollar PLASTIC COCKPIT. I'm also not looking to forego the instructor interaction.... nor use it as a FAST TRACK... JUST A TOOL...

I do want to thank you for your input though.
 
As for my medical? I have to have a DOT health exam as well considering my tanker cdl licensing. So, I'm pretty sure that part is a go... I'll have more info tomorrow hopefully. Covid depending
 
Top Dawg said:
While I appreciate your response. I beg to disagree a touch with your SCUBA comment. Are you saying that there is more at stake screwing up flying.... Rather than diving? Maybe at 60' in Hawaii. But try 250' in Puget Sound..... If you honestly feel your chances of survival are worse falling out of the sky in a plane(1 atmosphere) vs ascending to the surface in an out of control inflated drysuit from 250' (7 atmosphere) you may be surprised.
I also get your point of using a simulator as a CHEAT!!! But again, let's just agree to disagree. Short of putting my fire suit and helmet.... My simulator IS NOT for playing games..... it IS for training. For some, it may be a way to say... OOPS..... OH WELL.... For others, not so much.... I guess it's all in how you look at it... I'm also not looking to simulate a 300-500k plane with a 200 dollar PLASTIC COCKPIT. I'm also not looking to forego the instructor interaction.... nor use it as a FAST TRACK... JUST A TOOL...

I do want to thank you for your input though.
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250’ in Puget Sound is jeopardizing you. No one else. In an airplane? Unless, in an emergency you can put it down in an empty area, many people will be in jeopardy. And you, or your heirs, will also learn about civil penalties, torts and personal injury lawyers.

I teach computer science at a local university (part time). I try to impress on my students that screwing up software means people may lose a lot of money or die. Same in aviation.

As for a CDL/DOT medical, aint nothing like an FAA medical. Go online, download the sample form. Read question 18. Every line of question 18.
 
Top Dawg said:
As for my medical? I have to have a DOT health exam as well considering my tanker cdl licensing. So, I'm pretty sure that part is a go... I'll have more info tomorrow hopefully. Covid depending
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The CDL exam pretty much guarantees you'll qualify to fly under BasicMed, but you do have to get at least a class III once in order to do that. And as noted, there are a lot more ways to get tripped up on an FAA medical. Hopefully none will apply to you, but make sure before you have the exam done!

Yes, the personal risks are a lot greater doing mixed gas wreck or cave diving (I'm full trimix certified as well, mostly diving north Atlantic wrecks), but for better or worse, the medical requirements for civilian advanced diving certifications are pretty minimal.
 
Arnold said:
Gee whiz, wouldn't it be nice if there was empirical evidence rather than anecdotal or purely opinion based evidence that a new pilot could reference to obtain a scientifically valid understanding of flight training and simulator issue. Oh wait, there is. For example: https://commons.erau.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1189&context=publication
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Of course, that study notes that it differed from prior studies in that it was a specifically designed part 142 curriculum tailored to the strengths and weakness of their specific FRASCA device, and the result were that the researchers "believe training ab-initio pilots with an FTD that has the functionality and fidelity of the devices in use at ERAU can be effective." So, if the OP wants to buy the full Embry Riddle training device (Looks like major $$$ to me: Frasca C172 Level 6 Flight Training Device | Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University - Daytona Beach, FL (erau.edu)) and his CFI uses the Embry Riddle specifically tailored curriculum, he may see some benefit. But it seems he would be much better served financially and feasibility-wise just getting in a trainer aircraft with a CFI at the local FBO.
 
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My point was missed. I was simply saying the use of empirical evidence is more helpful than internet based anecdotal evidence. Politics is anecdotal whereas science (including pedagogy) is based on empirical evidence. Of course no one need take my advice - y'all have free will.
 
Top Dawg said:
While I appreciate your response. I beg to disagree a touch with your SCUBA comment. Are you saying that there is more at stake screwing up flying.... Rather than diving? Maybe at 60' in Hawaii. But try 250' in Puget Sound..... If you honestly feel your chances of survival are worse falling out of the sky in a plane(1 atmosphere) vs ascending to the surface in an out of control inflated drysuit from 250' (7 atmosphere) you may be surprised.
I also get your point of using a simulator as a CHEAT!!! But again, let's just agree to disagree. Short of putting my fire suit and helmet.... My simulator IS NOT for playing games..... it IS for training. For some, it may be a way to say... OOPS..... OH WELL.... For others, not so much.... I guess it's all in how you look at it... I'm also not looking to simulate a 300-500k plane with a 200 dollar PLASTIC COCKPIT. I'm also not looking to forego the instructor interaction.... nor use it as a FAST TRACK... JUST A TOOL...

I do want to thank you for your input though.
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My intent was to address the scuba medical requirements vs the FAA medical requirements - not the danger of diving. Your currently meeting the CDL requirements should be much more relevant to the FAA medical than the scuba medical form. Plus, lying on a scuba form (which many do) might wind up in a lawsuit. But lying on the FAA medical is a crime (probably same as CDL. Its the FAA's question "Have you ever in your life..." or something like that really trips up the guy who took ADHD meds in middle school, etc.

I also dive and it can be quite dangerous. I went as far as drysuit diving in the Great Lakes (but not tri-mix diving). Its very easy to see how it can all go bad on you very, very quickly. I never minded the face freezing. But did not like the drysuit constriction (maybe wrong fit). And I always had cold feet no matter what boot, sock, etc. So hung that up for winter warm water trips. The fatality rate across diving is probably higher than the aviation fatality rate. Definitely higher for deep wreck, cave, mixed gas and semi or fully closed circuit RB's/

So having done both I would say scuba dangers and flying dangers are apples to oranges.

More importantly (from the FAA's pov) assuming diving is more dangerous or reversed...that flying is safer might start to dance with one the "Hazardous Attitudes" if that assumption is carried farther. A good example (just an example) here would be if a diver felt no concern about flying in clouds because he was skilled at deep diving or in low visibility conditions where disorientation can occur. Definitely a few similarities. But also not at all the same.

Keep us posted on your training. Would love to hear how its going!!!
 
Top Dawg said:
Anybody with advice/experience would be GREATLY APPRECIATED!!
THANKS,
Joe
Click to expand...

There are definitely some areas a flight sim like Microsoft Flight Simulator or X-plane can help. For example, practice running check list, learning VOR navigation, learning how to operate the GPS, learning the procedures for flying an IFR approach are all areas where a flight sim can be great help. I'm sure there are others. But they will not teach you the fine control of the flight controls necessary to flare at landing, or to perform a power on stall with the engine RPMs up high, the noise and vibration, the sound of the air rushing by, and the plane wallowing through the air before the break. Also, it is easy to learn some bad habits that need to be trained out of you if you start off down the wrong path without input from your CFI, although I think that concern can largely be overblown. When you first start your training, mostly what you will be focused on is learning the feel of the flight controls, which is why a flight sim probably won't help you much initially.
 
Arnold said:
My point was missed. I was simply saying the use of empirical evidence is more helpful than internet based anecdotal evidence.
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Not when you take the empirical evidence and attempt to assume conclusions beyond the scope of the study. Then it becomes anecdotal, or just theoretical, and is no basis to discount the actual experience of the multitude of individuals with personal experience on the subject.
 
PPC1052 said:
Not when you take the empirical evidence and attempt to assume conclusions beyond the scope of the study. Then it becomes anecdotal, or just theoretical, and is no basis to discount the actual experience of the multitude of individuals with personal experience on the subject.
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I can see why someone proffering anecdotal and opinion evidence (in your case much of which I agree with) would push their point of view - otherwise they would not have posted it. I NEVER "attempt[ed] to assume conclusions beyond the scope of the study." I simply stated that there is scholarly research on the subject and gave links to that research. I gave an example of a study without endorsing it and a suggested a search string on google scholar. How you came up with me "attempt[ing] to reach conclusions beyond the scope of the study." escapes me. I didn't even quote another post. There is science on this, this is an example, this where you find it. I don't see any conclusion.
 
Arnold said:
I didn't even quote another post. There is science on this, this is an example, this where you find it. I don't see any conclusion.
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That's true. I made an inference of your meaning. Perhaps a false one. I pointed out that your cited study provided specific limitations on its conclusions such that it probably has no application to the OPs question. You responded that I missed the point, and added that empirical evidence is better than anecdotal evidence. That you would add that point while suggesting I missed your point strongly that you believe that the limitations of the study were not important, and the conclusion of the study could be applied outside of that conditions of the study and thus to the OPs situation. If I falsely interpreted your point, I apologize.
 
GaryM said:
The CDL exam pretty much guarantees you'll qualify to fly under BasicMed, but you do have to get at least a class III once in order to do that. And as noted, there are a lot more ways to get tripped up on an FAA medical. Hopefully none will apply to you, but make sure before you have the exam done!

Yes, the personal risks are a lot greater doing mixed gas wreck or cave diving (I'm full trimix certified as well, mostly diving north Atlantic wrecks), but for better or worse, the medical requirements for civilian advanced diving certifications are pretty minimal.
Click to expand...

Just the to reinforce the "Dont' get tripped up by the medical" thought. I can' tell you how many potential pilot applicants I have asked and they tell me they don't have any issues and then when we start filling out the MedExpress form and then, Well, there was or is that ______ thing. Common ones are, I was once diagnosed with _____, often as a kid. I once was prescribe some Anti-depressants. I once had a drug or Alcohol related arrest/legal issue. I once was admitted to the hospital for ______.

If anything on the Medexpress form or your medial history causes even the slightest question about passing the medical, my (and most pilots here) recommendation is contact Dr. Bruce at aeromedicaldoc.com and let him know the situation. Best case he will tell you it isn't an issue, worst case he will tell you it is an issue and what needs to be done to resolve and you can then decide if you want to jump through and pay for the hoops to resolve it(if possible) or just limit yourself to Sport Pilot Privileges.

The problem with the FAA Medical system is many people think they can just go into the examiner and the worst that can happen is they won't get the medical. THAT IS NOT THE CASE. What can happen is you can easily make it difficult or impossible to qualify for a lessor medical (Sport Pilot) that would still let you fly but with a few more restrictions. Because of this there is often a dis-incentive to try for a higher class medical.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
I don't know if this is empirical or anecdotal evidence, but when I was doing my private, I was told to look outside and quit staring at the instruments like I was flying a simulator. Almost direct quote from my CFI - she used more profanity, though.

@kath nailed it in post number 2, but didn't use enough ALL CAPS. @ktup-flyer followed up strong in post 3. But, again, NOT ENOUGH all CAPS, perhaps.

Sims like xplane and MSFS are ok for procedural stuff. For real flying, go take a discovery flight. If you like it, find a CFI, get your medical and start taking lessons.
 
Back to your original question about a Simulator. I agree with a number of other posts that for your Private Certificate the Simulator has pretty limited value. Your RC airplane experience will probably be a lot more helpful in just teaching you the systems and aerodynamics. But perhaps only the best sims (nothing you are going to put in you house) might teach you the flying part very well as this is mostly visual, including peripheral vision and feel.

The Sim will have some use specially if you are flying something with a Glass Panel and eventually a GPS, assuming your simulator has the same Glass Panel or GPS as you are actually flying with, But realistically you probably won't be using much of the functionality of these systems until after you Solo. The Basic X-Plane Simulator often can teach you how to operate these avionic pretty well, and you don't need much more than a Joystick for equipment beyond a reasonable computer to do so.

One of the 1st thing I tell new students is don't be overwhelmed by all the stuff in the instrument panel. typically 90% of it is pilot entertainment. But a Nintendo in the instrument panel would make the passengers uncomfortable. When I get in a new airplane if I can find the Airspeed Indicator and the Altimeter (and that might be optional) I am pretty much good to fly it. Read the minimum equipment list in a Schweitzer 2-33 some time (hint: it is Airspeed indicator only)

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
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Dana said:
RC flying (in the traditional sense, not today's autopilot stabilized drones or lightweight foam toys) is a great background for flying the real thing.
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The two times someone was dumb enough to hand me the transmitter I crashed RC planes. This was after I had my PP-ASEL IA. I have never so much as scratched a full scale plane.

Personally, I wouldn't start out with RC, but that's me. And I agree with others who have stated the limitations of MSFS and it's ilk. Great for VFR sightseeing (MSFS) and working on procedures (higher end flight simulators), but for getting the feel of a real airplane there is no substitute for the real thing. No, I am not an instructor, but I have been flying for 20+ years.
 
I've taught a number of people to fly R/C over the years. Full scale pilots are the hardest... the lack of in-cockpit visual cues and instrument feedback makes R/C flying more difficult than full scale flying for people used to those cues. Then there's the speed, a model is quite twitchy compared to a big plane, and control reversal when the plane is coming toward you...
 
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