Is this common or unsafe?

[lancie00]

I'm a current instrument rated commercial pilot working towards my CFI. I bought a Challenger 2 experimental and found a CFI to get some training. During some landings at a nontowered airport, we either had a gust of wind or I did something wrong and about 20' off the ground, we quickly turned left and shot over so we were missing the runway. I instantly firewalled the throttle and the CFI pulled it back and said here's a good learning exercise. He then wanted me to do S curves back and forth across the runway from grass to grass about 10' off the ground and about 10 mph above stall speed. He said it would teach me good directional control. I firewalled it and told him not this time. I then told him that didn't sound safe to me and I wasn't going to do it. After a brief "discussion", we decided to just hold it off the runway but stay on centerline, which I had no problem doing.

After the flight he told me this is a common maneuver. I said it just doesn't sound safe and doesn't give you a way out if something goes wrong. Too slow, too close to the ground, in a bank, and a good way to take out a runway light if you get windshear.

Am I out of line here?

 

[Tarheelpilot]

I’ve never heard of anyone doing s turns. I have had students translate laterally across the runway while keeping the airplane parallel to the centerline. I use the exercise to drill proportional rudder/aileron use in a slip to land in crosswinds.

I would only do it on long runways and light/calm winds.

Everyone’s risk management is different. I fly crop dusters at night. Some think that’s nuts and would not be inclined to do such a thing. That’s fine.

You shouldn’t do anything you feel to be unsafe. Furthermore it’s a really bad idea to do anything with reduced margins spontaneously. I wouldn’t consider any maneuvering like you described without proper plan/briefing prior to flight.

 

[snglecoil]

Is this what your instructor was getting at? If so, it is a good exercise, but yeah, not one I'd spontaneously throw at you.

 

[lancie00]

Is this what your instructor was getting at? If so, it is a good exercise, but yeah, not one I'd spontaneously throw at you.

Not really. He wanted me to actually aim the nose of the airplane 20° right, cross the runway almost to the fence then turn 40° left so we would cross the runway at the opposite 20° angle. I also noticed that this guy was going 70mps as a low pass. My CFI only wanted to be 10mph above stall.

 

[snglecoil]

Hmmmmm...I’ll defer to more seasoned instructors here. I’m not seeing an obvious benefit to doing that maneuver in that scenario, ever.

 

[Daleandee]

I bought a Challenger 2 experimental and found a CFI to get some training. During some landings at a nontowered airport, we either had a gust of wind or I did something wrong and about 20' off the ground, we quickly turned left and shot over so we were missing the runway.

I don't know much about your instructor's technique but I've flown a busload of Challengers (I owned a CH2CWS for a few years) and the long wing models are not very responsive in turbulence and winds. Even worse with the doors installed.

That exercise might be OK to do on a day when it's calm but playing close to the ground in a not so responsive airplane in the rough and tumble doesn't sound like something I'd recommend, especially if you're new to Challengers. On gusty days it was sometimes a challenge to keep the runway in the windscreen on final approach and it was like "mixing paint" with the control stick.

This video is worth a few moments of your time:

 

[bflynn]

S-turns are an excellent way to lose energy on final, but I wouldn't do them at less than 100' AGL. It's just a series of steep turns in opposite directions.

I wouldn't think of an S turn to recover the centerline.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Not really. He wanted me to actually aim the nose of the airplane 20° right, cross the runway almost to the fence then turn 40° left so we would cross the runway at the opposite 20° angle. I also noticed that this guy was going 70mps as a low pass. My CFI only wanted to be 10mph above stall.

It’s just my opinion but I don’t see much benefit in the exercise.

 

[lancie00]

I don't know much about your instructor's technique but I've flown a busload of Challengers (I owned a CH2CWS for a few years) and the long wing models are not very responsive in turbulence and winds. Even worse with the doors installed.

That exercise might be OK to do on a day when it's calm but playing close to the ground in a not so responsive airplane in the rough and tumble doesn't sound like something I'd recommend, especially if you're new to Challengers. On gusty days it was sometimes a challenge to keep the runway in the windscreen on final approach and it was like "mixing paint" with the control stick.

This video is worth a few moments of your time:

Thanks for sharing.

There's no doubt that the wind will be light until I get more practice in this plane. It really amazes me how much rudder is used and how this plane likes to weather vane.

 

[Daleandee]

It really amazes me how much rudder is used and how this plane likes to weather vane.

Challengers are very rudder dominant. Without the doors on it is a bit easier to fly but we used to teach students to, "Lead with the rudder." When you put the doors on it becomes quite unstable.

I flew my clip wing with doors and it's something that can be done but the airplane just seems to require a lot of chasing to keep in straight if there's much turbulence or wind. Adding what is called "finlets" to the ends of the horizontal stabilizer will make the doors on experience much easier and the airplane will fly nearly the same as without the doors and finlets although slipping the airplane becomes quite funky in that configuration.

They are really fun airplanes to fly and I enjoyed mine for a few hundred hours. But I wanted more speed, a four stroke engine, and more reaction from control inputs.

 

[steingar]

No how no way am I yanking an banking that close to the ground ever. Anything thing goes wrong and there's no outs and it's going to hurt bad.

 

[Larry in TN]

I don't understand what the training benefit was supposed to be.

I can understand doing something like this but keeping the airplane aligned with the runway, while moving left/right across the runway, to practice the techniques used in the flare.

 

[Shawn]

He was offering you a drill that might be helpful if you ever found yourself in that situations again...totally fine IMO...the unsafe part is expecting you to do that unprepared and unexpected when you were in a go around mindset.

Doing that fresh and ready vs doing that unexpected when trying to recover is two totally different situations.

 

[RyanShort1]

I'm a current instrument rated commercial pilot working towards my CFI. I bought a Challenger 2 experimental and found a CFI to get some training. During some landings at a nontowered airport, we either had a gust of wind or I did something wrong and about 20' off the ground, we quickly turned left and shot over so we were missing the runway. I instantly firewalled the throttle and the CFI pulled it back and said here's a good learning exercise. He then wanted me to do S curves back and forth across the runway from grass to grass about 10' off the ground and about 10 mph above stall speed. He said it would teach me good directional control. I firewalled it and told him not this time.

It DOES sound like the instructor has a point about your need to improve directional control.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

It DOES sound like the instructor has a point about your need to improve directional control.

From what others have said about that airplane I’m not willing to call out the op.

 

[RyanShort1]

From what others have said about that airplane I’m not willing to call out the op.

"in that airplane" it sounds like the CFI was uncomfortable with it and felt there was a need for improvement. That was my first takeaway from reading the OP.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

"in that airplane" it sounds like the CFI was uncomfortable with it and felt there was a need for improvement. That was my first takeaway from reading the OP.

Ok. I understood that the first time you posted.

I also took away from it the cfi thought it was a good idea to, in that very moment, ask the student to maneuver at low altitude amongst what sounds like a poor passing of aircraft controls.

My take away was the cfi tried to crash the airplane so I wasn’t giving them much credibility at all.

Then other pilots with time in type discussed the flight characteristics of this particular “airplane” and it sounded like it was a bad idea for this thing to fly in any significant wind because the flight controls barely work.

My biggest take away from this thread. I’ll never look at challengers on barnstormers and think “that looks like fun” ever again.

 

[lancie00]

It DOES sound like the instructor has a point about your need to improve directional control.

There's no doubt that I needed improved directional control, that's why I was getting training. This was only the 2nd or third landing in this plane for me. I was still trying to learn how it flew. However, I still don't see this as a good way to teach that. Maybe slow flight at a higher altitude, but not while doing S curves 10 feet off the runway.

 

[iamtheari]

Does the CFI have a ton of time in type? That would be a factor for me to answer the safety question. In general, as an aspiring CFI, I don't think it's ever okay to overrule a student's already-made decision to go around. I think most students, if not all, will learn better from going around and then talking on the downwind leg about an exercise to demonstrate and/or try.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

There's no doubt that I needed improved directional control, that's why I was getting training. This was only the 2nd or third landing in this plane for me. I was still trying to learn how it flew. However, I still don't see this as a good way to teach that. Maybe slow flight at a higher altitude, but not while doing S curves 10 feet off the runway.

I would find a different instructor or if that’s really inconvenient at the minimum discuss boundaries you are not willing to cross. I wouldn’t have been happy at all with what you have described.

 

[DaleB]

Maybe it's just me, but I have no desire to be maneuvering more than necessary or in unexpected ways, right over a runway. Maybe if you know for sure there's NO other traffic around, but... just seems like one of those things that would really make one look even more foolish if there were an accident.

 

[bflynn]

He was offering you a drill that might be helpful if you ever found yourself in that situations again...totally fine IMO...the unsafe part is expecting you to do that unprepared and unexpected when you were in a go around mindset.

I think the unsafe part was being 20' off the ground 10 kts above stall and asking for a steep turn. That will be a no, dog.

The better drill at that point starts with throttle going full in.

 

[snglecoil]

I don't think it's ever okay to overrule a student's already-made decision to go around.

Probably the best point made so far, IMO. If you want to practice directional control in slow flight, that's fine. Do it at +1500' AGL. How often do we *really* reinforce a good go around decision? In hindsight, this was probably a missed opportunity to practice a go-around maneuver that doesn't get much practice with a CFI...and one that can bite you quickly if mismanaged.

 

[RyanShort1]

Probably the best point made so far, IMO. If you want to practice directional control in slow flight, that's fine. Do it at +1500' AGL.

I'm not 100% sure about "S-turning" along the runway (most of what we do is sideslips), and if that is a correct terminology for what the CFI wanted, there's definitely room for criticism, but I frequently have students that are having trouble fly slowly over the runway during tailwheel training and it really makes a big difference. You can't see how sloppy you are at 1500 AGL.

 

[Shawn]

I think the unsafe part was being 20' off the ground 10 kts above stall and asking for a steep turn. That will be a no, dog.

Sure, but the CFI was wanting to demonstrate S-turns, not steep turns...dog.

I am not one to stick a landing at any cost and preach that every landing is a go around until proven otherwise, but the apprehension to practice anything but a straight and level stabilized approach is not going to make you a better pilot when things are not perfect.

 

[snglecoil]

Sure, but the CFI was wanting to demonstrate S-turns, not steep turns.

Practicing slide slips keeping longitudinal axis of the airplane aligned with the runway has tangible training value. What is the practical benefit to executing S-turns with 40° heading changes in slow flight 10' off the ground? And is it worth decreasing margins for error, or unexpected factors? I'm learning here too, so genuine question.

 

[lancie00]

Does the CFI have a ton of time in type? That would be a factor for me to answer the safety question. In general, as an aspiring CFI, I don't think it's ever okay to overrule a student's already-made decision to go around. I think most students, if not all, will learn better from going around and then talking on the downwind leg about an exercise to demonstrate and/or try.

Yes, it's my understanding that this CFI has over 3000 hours in this type. However, that wasn't a factor to me when he took over the controls and said we should do "this".

 

[Tools]

I did used to brief my copilots that ANY mention or start of a go around leads to ONE thing, and that is the full completion of a go around. Talk about it later.

indecision is WEIRDLY RARELY EVER a good thing.

lots of good considerations here, but that’s the trump card in this scenario for me.

 

[TommyG]

Being that we don’t know anything about the CFI and his skills, a lot of people are saying this was stupid. But know what is if this guy was Sean tucker, would the reactions be the same? I have had pilots and CFI teach me things over the years that are outside the textbook training. I think it makes one a better pilot for doing things outside the box. Knowing how an airplane handles in other than normal flying is a benefit. If I know the other pilot is capable and has done things like that, I say bring it on.

 

[PaulS]

I can't imagine anyone asking for s turns, 10 feet over the runway 10 mph above stall, are you sure that's what he said? I have been asked, and done exercises where you fly in ground effect, just above stall, just above the runway, while moving from one edge to the other, then holding the centerline while not allowing the airplane to touch down. Crosswind makes it more fun, and it is a great exercise.

The other thing I noticed is that you said you "instantly firewalled" the throttle, which is never a good idea, not good for the engine and can cause some engines to stall on you. If you want to teach others you need to be very comfortable flying in these situations.

 

[RyanShort1]

I can't imagine anyone asking for s turns, 10 feet over the runway 10 mph above stall, are you sure that's what he said? I have been asked, and done exercises where you fly in ground effect, just above stall, just above the runway, while moving from one edge to the other, then holding the centerline while not allowing the airplane to touch down. Crosswind makes it more fun, and it is a great exercise.

This may depend on the plane. In a Piper Cub, 10 mph over a stall is almost a 25% margin... this may not be as unreasonable as it sounds and this plane doesn’t look like 10 mph over stalling speed is that slow... it’s not a Bonanza people!

 

[lancie00]

I can't imagine anyone asking for s turns, 10 feet over the runway 10 mph above stall, are you sure that's what he said? I have been asked, and done exercises where you fly in ground effect, just above stall, just above the runway, while moving from one edge to the other, then holding the centerline while not allowing the airplane to touch down. Crosswind makes it more fun, and it is a great exercise.

The other thing I noticed is that you said you "instantly firewalled" the throttle, which is never a good idea, not good for the engine and can cause some engines to stall on you. If you want to teach others you need to be very comfortable flying in these situations.

Yes, that is exactly what he wanted me to do. In fact on the next pass he wanted to show me what he wanted. Just as you, I've done the ground effect exercise right over the runway and I have no problem doing that. I just didn't like the S curves from fence to fence.

I realize I said "instantly firewalled", it was more of a gentle application of full power. I would never slam it in too forcefully.

 

[Lindberg]

I'm a current instrument rated commercial pilot working towards my CFI.

I hear that many CFIs teach their students that every landing is a potential go around. That's not how I was taught, and frankly I think it is the wrong message, especially when some students are always looking for an out. That's compounded when students (and instructors) are so conservative they did not even know where the line is between durable and not. You're training to be a CFI, and that means not only teaching your students the "right" way to do things but also letting them get close to boundaries and testing the aircraft and their capabilities. That means you have to be comfortable operating in all fight regimes, even outside the norm of what you would do deliberately. So perhaps your instructor saw you bailing out of what he thought was a very recoverable situation and is deliberately pushing your boundaries. Disclaimer, I'm not an instructor.

 

[lancie00]

This may depend on the plane. In a Piper Cub, 10 mph over a stall is almost a 25% margin... this may not be as unreasonable as it sounds and this plane doesn’t look like 10 mph over stalling speed is that slow... it’s not a Bonanza people!

You're 100% right. It wasn't that fast, but if something went wrong, we were only over the runway 1/3 of the time, otherwise we were going to hit a fence or a runway light. That's what made me feel it's unsafe.

 

[lancie00]

I hear that many CFIs teach their students that every landing is a potential go around. That's not how I was taught, and frankly I think it is the wrong message. But you're training to be a CFI, and that means not only teaching your students the "right" way to do things but also letting them get close to boundaries and testing the aircraft and their capabilities. That means you have to be comfortable operating in all fight regimes, even outside the norm of what you would do deliberately. So perhaps your instructor is deliberately pushing your boundaries. Disclaimer, I'm not an instructor.

That's a good thought, however, this is not my CFI instructor and this was not a CFI training flight. He was only "type rating" me to fly this plane. In fact, I don't think he even knew that I'm working on my CFI. And no, I have no intention of teaching in this plane.

 

[PaulS]

Yes, that is exactly what he wanted me to do. In fact on the next pass he wanted to show me what he wanted. Just as you, I've done the ground effect exercise right over the runway and I have no problem doing that. I just didn't like the S curves from fence to fence.

I realize I said "instantly firewalled", it was more of a gentle application of full power. I would never slam it in too forcefully.

Yeah, I really can't picture what your flying now, even at 30 knots, s turning side to side on a 100 foot runway doesn't seem right to me.

 

[Dana]

This may depend on the plane. In a Piper Cub, 10 mph over a stall is almost a 25% margin... this may not be as unreasonable as it sounds and this plane doesn’t look like 10 mph over stalling speed is that slow... it’s not a Bonanza people!

Ultralights (and ultralight people) are different. A Challenger 2, despite being registered experimental, is essentially an ultralight. You can [safely] do a lot of things in an ultralight that would be unsafe or at least pointless in a heavier, faster aircraft.

How many of the naysayers have flown an ultralight? A gust of wind hits you while flaring in a Bonanza, one or two quick corrections and you're down and rolling in a few seconds. A gust hits you while flaring an ultralight, you might be flying for a while and doing some maneuvering to get back on centerline... so the instructor could well have been doing a useful exercise or demonstration, depending on whether the student was ready for it.

 

[Lindberg]

I think most students, if not all, will learn better from going around and then talking on the downwind leg about an exercise to demonstrate and/or try.

Don't discount the law of primacy. If the first reaction is to go around and talk about it later, that can stick.

On a recent flight with an instructor, simulated emergency, and as I got low, he asked if I was going to make my chosen field. I said I'd resigned myself to landing in the back half and hitting the trees. He took over and showed me with aggressive maneuvering, beyond my comfort zone, how he could put it down in the first third. Learning occurred.

 

[WannFly]

Lots of talk about holding the centerline .... I have to try it one of these days

 

[iamtheari]

Lots of talk about holding the centerline .... I have to try it one of these days

I landed on the centerline once. It poked a hole in my nose wheel tube. Never again!