Sexism in aviation?

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Groundpounder said:
When Delta flew an MD-80 full of girls down to visit NASA last year with an all female crew to promote females in aviation, a bunch of grumpy old guys bitched about it. That alone was reason to do such a thing, and reason to continue to do such things.
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I, for one, pointed out that in my opinion exclusion (an event not open to males) was not a valid recipe for inclusion. Nor is calling people names or denigrating those with whom you disagree. I also pointed out the logic disconnect between virtually any male-only event or organization being universally unacceptable, yet female-only events are lauded by many. By definition, that is sexist. We will achieve our goal, equality between male and female, when we treat them as equals. Nothing grumpy or old about that viewpoint.. just measured thought.
 
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kayoh190 said:
I’m about a decade shy of his 27 years in the industry, but my experience has mirrored everything @Tarheelpilot said above. You’re going to encounter sexism, certainly, but I think you’ll find the majority of folks in aviation to be welcoming and helpful. Jump on in - we're happy to have you! :)

The only thing I might add is that for better or for worse, you'll likely be memorable to almost everyone you encounter. It's just a function of being in a male dominated industry. I fly for a large airline, and if I look back through my flight logs I might remember half of the names of the guys I've flown with, but I’d probably remember every female. Flying with a woman simply doesn't happen much - perhaps once or twice per year - so you tend to remember when it does. Therefore it’ll be harder to blend into the background, but it can also be used to your advantage if you establish yourself as someone people enjoy working with. Especially on the corporate side of the fence, where that sort of thing is especially important!

Anyway, good luck! In addition to the 99s, also check out ISA+21. They’re focused on the airline side, but as you get a little further in your training, they have some scholarships that might be of interest.
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Also join Women in Aviation. Many more scholarships and more oriented to the pro pilot than the 99s.
 
murphey said:
Also join Women in Aviation. Many more scholarships and more oriented to the pro pilot than the 99s.
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Good call! Forgot about them.
 
MuseChaser said:
I, for one, pointed out that in my opinion exclusion (an event not open to males) was not a valid recipe for inclusion. Nor is calling people names or denigrating those with whom you disagree.
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If it were Delta that sponsored and paid for it, I would have agreed with you, even though they would have that right.
But if it was a bunch of women that decided to do this and pay for it, then I have no problem with it.

I'm not sure, but I think it was the latter.
 
MuseChaser said:
I, for one, pointed out that in my opinion exclusion (an event not open to males) was not a valid recipe for inclusion. Nor is calling people names or denigrating those with whom you disagree.
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Everyone has an opinion, and they think theirs doesn't stink, or something like that.

Also, I don't recall calling anyone names?
 
JOhnH said:
If it were Delta that sponsored and paid for it, I would have agreed with you, even though they would have that right.
But if it was a bunch of women that decided to do this and pay for it, then I have no problem with it.
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So if it was a bunch of grumpy old guys who opened up a similar trip for boys only, and made sure there was an all-male flight crew, what do you think the response would and/or should be?
 
Half Fast said:
You don’t think calling posters “grumpy old men” qualifies, when you could just as easily have written “some posters?”
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I was not referring to POA posters, I was referring to the world in general. Go to any article about what Delta did that has a comment section, and you'll see lots of grumpy old men bitching.

And grumpy is an adverb, not an adjective. If that offends you.....well......
 
Groundpounder said:
Everyone has an opinion, and they think theirs doesn't stink, or something like that.

Also, I don't recall calling anyone names?
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So your stance is that if two differing opinions exist, at least one of them stinks. I disagree; the potential for two differing yet valid opinions exists with thoughtful interpretation of quite a few issues.

Perhaps "calling people names" was an overstatement, but "grumpy," "old," and "bitched" are not kind, valid, nor accurate characterizations of the many of us who disagree(d) with you. Can we agree on "denigrating those with whom you disagree?"

To the original poster, who has been great throughout all of this...and getting back on topic... there isn't a person on this board, to my knowledge, who isn't thrilled to have another young person of ANY gender, race, or other demographic involved and interested in aviation. There are obviously differing opinions, viewpoints, and experiences represented here about not only whether or not sexism exists, but even the very definition of sexism, but we ALL want you to succeed and I, for one, wish you all the best and would be more than happy, if you're ever in central NY state, to introduce you to an exceptional CFI who teaches many, many young women and men. As others have said, GO FOR IT! Best wishes.
 
Groundpounder said:
I was not referring to POA posters, I was referring to the world in general. Go to any article about what Delta did that has a comment section, and you'll see lots of grumpy old men bitching.

And grumpy is an adverb, not an adjective. If that offends you.....well......
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Really? What verb was grumpy modifying in that phrase? Looks like an adjective to me.

And regardless of where you intend it to be applied, “grumpy old men” is intended as an insult. Clearly @MuseChaser took it personally.
 
austin757 said:
A good showing?! Why isn’t anyone on here telling the OP the truth?

OP, if there’s one thing you need to hear and take away from this forum, it’s this: There is nothing special about anyone (man or woman) becoming a pilot.

People turn aviation into some glorified “calling” that is in the blood while the spend thousands of dollars on training costs and years away from home (talking about professional pilots). Truth is, however, that no one really cares and none of us are that special!

I’m also perplexed why you think female pilots are either not widely accepted or considered “outsiders”. Do you really think that the aviation Gods are sitting around the table thinking of ways to keep women out of the cockpit?

Just look at other respected and well-compensated professions: Doctors, lawyers, high finance, etc. All of these have countless woman working in them, in often executive level roles. Do you think that stigma exists against them, too?

The reason why there are so few female pilots is the same reason why there are so few female mechanics, machinists, and home builders: Airplanes tend to be a “guy” thing.

Again, I’m not suggesting women cannot perform these tasks as well as men can; I’m just saying people often choose a field that interests them. Women, in general, do not find airplanes all that interesting. There’s no external forces out there trying to dissuade women from being pilots.
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I am not sure what the "truth" was that you think is being withheld.

Keep in mind that airplanes tending "to be a 'guy' thing" is largely a social construct of our societal norms, not hardwired. Obviously some differences are more hardwired, but airlines isn't one of them. I see that all the time when women are amazed that I can fix a plane. Doing so is more more complicated than cooking in that all you need is the right ingredients (parts/supplies), a good recipe (the service manual, and the right utensils (tools). Anyone who can make a fancy four course meal can learn to fix a plane. But that is not what society has taught them. It is those societal boundaries that need to be stretched a bit, and fortunately are being.
 
Groundpounder said:
I was not referring to POA posters, I was referring to the world in general. Go to any article about what Delta did that has a comment section, and you'll see lots of grumpy old men bitching.

And grumpy is an adverb, not an adjective. If that offends you.....well......
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Your lack of grammatical competency offends me... ;) .. just teasing. It is an adjective, describing a noun as @Half Fast has already correctly pointed out. My wife, who is neither grumpy, old, nor male, saw the Delta flight as denigrating to women, as she views women (as do I) as just as capable as men, needing no extra consideration to accomplish their goals. She didn't "*****" about it... we both got on with our lives happily after expressing our viewpoints on the issue.

It's a shame that this thread will probably get closed again, although I hope it doesn't. It would be wonderful if those lobbying for respect for others SHOWED respect for others.
 
As an observation, I find it interesting that use of the F bomb has become so ubiquitous as To function as a pseudo punctuation mark. Growing up the F bomb was never ever used personally or in the media. My Mother would have fainted if anyone in the family used the word.. Yet now the world is so offended by every term. I just find it funny that on one hand we are clearly more tolerant of vulgarity, yet on the other, we seem to find offense everywhere.

To the OP, if you seek it, you will find it. Whatever ‘it’ is. I am offended on a daily (hourly?) basis by what I see in this society. Yet, I mostly overlook it. Plus, nobody cares about why a ‘Grumpy old man’ is grumpy.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
I never did any corporate flying but I've known a few who did. In every case, they loved what they did and said it was one of the best gigs in the industry. And IIRC everyone that I've known who had a corporate gig they loved, got that gig through networking. The position was never advertised. When the seat opened up, the chief pilot would ask the other pilots who they knew that would be a good fit for the team and told them to start making calls.

So the takeaway is networking networking networking. At every gig you get along your path (flying or otherwise), be competent, be absolutely reliable and be easy to get along with. You never know when the guy work the ramp with pumping fuel this year will end up working an awesome gig that needs another pilot 5 years down the road.

Welcome to forum, good luck on your journey.
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You are correct about the need for networking in the corporate world, but that has been more difficult in the past for women. Many got their start co-piloting a plane for a small company with just one plane. The reality often was that the main pilot wasn't going to hire a female copilot because their own domestic situation was not going do well with him spending many days away with another women.

Thirty or so years ago there was more of a sea change in larger corporations and doors started to open, but there were still companies who could justify hiring the guy that got that first job flying co-pilot in the Citation compared to the woman who had only been able to get some sporadic time in the right seat of a King Air while instructing for a company that also did charter. And there were the operations that the chief pilot was navy and tried to hire all navy pilots.

There are also the more subtle differences, such as how a new hire is treated. As one of only two women in a 35+ flight department, as a new hire, I was keenly aware of everyone being very reserved toward me until I had an opportunity to demonstrate that I really could fly the planes as well as everyone else, and then I was completely accepted. However, new male hires had not such experience as it was assumed that they could fly, so there was not sea change upon them starting to do the standardization training.

This whole bit is very much generational. I found the WWII generation not to be very accepting of women fliers. My fellow boomers are a mixed bag. The more recent generations have much broader view of what women are capable of. In no small part to not having stay at home mothers. Us boomers were pretty much the last generation where this was common. When you go up seeing that women are capable of all sorts of things, then that is internalized.
 
Everskyward said:
I had a (female) neighbor be amazed that I could operate a cordless drill to drill a small hole.
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Well as long as it was a small hole. ;)

[truth be told, I am mechanically inept. Lisa is very handy]
 
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I don't care about "societal norms", so that may skew my perspective on stuff. Or maybe, since I've been the different kid my whole life, doing something else considered weird by society doesn't bother me any. Honestly, if a guy told me right now that I really shouldn't be a pilot because I was a girl, I'd probably tell him to go talk to someone who cares what he thinks, because a random guy's opinion of what I'm doing with my life doesn't matter. If it were a guy I flew with for a job, I'd just say, "Huh." and fly the best I possibly could to prove that girls can be pilots, and good ones, too.

I think you guys might be interested to learn that for me, in the non-pilot population, the women are far more likely to be sexist about girls being pilots, especially the younger ones. The only people who think I'm bizarre for wanting to become a pilot are women, and there's actually lots of them, most of them under the age of 30. Maybe I'm just lucky not to have met the grumpy old guys who don't think girls should be pilots, but I'm willing to bet that the "only 6% of pilots are women" is mostly because the vast majority of women do not want to fly. They don't want to get 100LL all over them because it's windy and they're refueling. They don't want to get oil smudges on their shirts from adding oil. They don't want to sweat out pattern laps at 7 am, trying to figure out just how high to flare. I'm not saying that all women are like that, obviously, since there are women pilots, but in my experience, women just don't care about flying that much and tend to characterize those of us girls who do fly and love it as a bit addled in the head.
 
MuseChaser said:
I, for one, pointed out that in my opinion exclusion (an event not open to males) was not a valid recipe for inclusion. Nor is calling people names or denigrating those with whom you disagree. I also pointed out the logic disconnect between virtually any male-only event or organization being universally unacceptable, yet female-only events are lauded by many. By definition, that is sexist. We will achieve our goal, equality between male and female, when we treat them as equals. Nothing grumpy or old about that viewpoint.. just measured thought.
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What Delta did was a PR stunt, likely accomplished by a mere scheduling change. It is not like some male pilot didn't get to a trip because of it. There was no broader exclusion.

Societal rituals seem to find plenty of male-only events. I have just two words: Deer Camp! :)
 
Kristin said:
What Delta did was a PR stunt, likely accomplished by a mere scheduling change. It is not like some male pilot didn't get to a trip because of it. There was no broader exclusion.
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Other than the boys who were excluded.

Societal rituals seem to find plenty of male-only events. I have just two words: Deer Camp! :)
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And they should be continued as exclusionary events?
 
SkyChaser said:
I don't care about "societal norms", so that may skew my perspective on stuff.
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I would say for me that it certainly skewed my perspective. As a friend of mine once said: "There are two kinds of girls, girly girls and utility girls." I am clearly of the latter.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Other than the boys who were excluded.


And they should be continued as exclusionary events?
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What boys were excluded from flying that day? I am sure that all males that were scheduled by Delta to fly that day, flew that day. Do you think that there were any flights that day that were only crewed by males? So where is the beef?

There is a difference between the natural selection of deer camp and societally imposed restrictions that have a negative effect on someone's ability to support themselves and get along in world. I think safe-spaces for guys are pretty likely to be available into eternity.
 
Morgan3820 said:
As an observation, I find it interesting that use of the F bomb has become so ubiquitous as To function as a pseudo punctuation mark. Growing up the F bomb was never ever used personally or in the media. My Mother would have fainted if anyone in the family used the word.. Yet now the world is so offended by every term. I just find it funny that on one hand we are clearly more tolerant of vulgarity, yet on the other, we seem to find offense everywhere.

To the OP, if you seek it, you will find it. Whatever ‘it’ is. I am offended on a daily (hourly?) basis by what I see in this society. Yet, I mostly overlook it. Plus, nobody cares about why a ‘Grumpy old man’ is grumpy.
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Well, the F-bomb is the most versatile word in the English language. It can be used as just about any form (noun, adverb, adjective, etc).
 
Kristin said:
What boys were excluded from flying that day? I am sure that all males that were scheduled by Delta to fly that day, flew that day. Do you think that there were any flights that day that were only crewed by males? So where is the beef?
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The “field trip” was for girls only...boys were not welcome. Yes, there were males on that flight, and doing all kinds of other things that day, but they were specifically excluded from this outing. If exclusion and sexism are going to be acceptable, they need to be acceptable for everyone. If they are going to be unacceptable, they need to be unacceptable for everyone.
 
A funny story sort of on topic.

When I was a flight instructor at a small airport in West Virginia, a plane landed and pulled up to the pumps. I didn't pay attention to who got out, but I thought I would fuel for them since I was bored and had nothing to do. 4 folks got out, an elderly lady that I would guess was in her early 70s, a man and woman that I would guess was in their early/mid 30s, and a kid about 10.

I walked up and told the man and said I would be happy to fuel and asked how much fuel do you want. He said I don't know, I am not the pilot. Ooops, sorry so I asked the lady that appeared to be the wife. She said I don't know, you will have to ask the pilot.

Ok, by this time I am probably red faced, so I winked at the elderly lady and asked the kid how much gas, which gave the family a good laugh.

I learned that day that the person that I assume is the pilot might not be the pilot.
 
SkyChaser said:
I don't care about "societal norms", ...
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Ding... ding... ding... and we have ANOTHER winner! Great post, again. I had composed a post saying pretty much something similar about how the amount of caring one has in perceived societal dictates is reversely proportional to their happiness and success especially in previously "nontraditional" occupations and pursuits, but it turned into my usual digital diarrhea. You did it much better in six words.

I was born small. VERY small. Heart condition that stunted my growth until it was repaired at the age of nine. When I was in third grade, I was the smallest kid in school, including the kindergartners. I got picked on. Rather than worry about it, I developed sort of a Regan-esque smiling-wise-guy approach and befriended most of the kids who were trying to make me feel bad about my size. My father was a VERY traditional-role guy, and made fun of me because at an early age I showed a lot of interest in cooking and crocheting. He used to tell me I'd make someone a great wife some day. I just laughed, rather than feel hurt. I played violin in school (and throughout my life, professionally), which didn't help with my "jock cred" in middle school. Never bothered me. Just kept smiling, made friendly wise-guy comments back, and kept enjoying the things I enjoyed. I mean, what's the alternative? Feel miserable, give up the things I enjoy, and make everyone else change to fit my desires? Treat people nice, be good at what you do, and you'll be respected and treated nicely. Who gives a crap what "society" thinks. The last thing I'd want to be, do, and think, especially these days, is what society is telling me to be, do, and think.

I still love to cook, and have earned the respect of many folks for my culinary skills. I still crochet. My wife taught me to sew a few months ago, and I sewed an entire new airplane interior. I also wrench on cars and airplanes, backpack, rock climb, shoot, play violin, garden, cry at sappy movies (as long as the lights are off), make incredibly rude off-color jokes but only in places where they are welcomed by EVERYONE present, enjoy cheap beer, expensive beer, making beer, .... I enjoy what I enjoy, and couldn't care less whether or not I'm "supposed to." Doesn't bother me at all that others enjoy different things, think different things, or view the things I do as "different." As a male elementary and middle school music teacher, I was in the minority gender in my workplace for thirty one years. Women are great... except for some of them, who were awful. Lots in the middle somewhere. Men are great... except for some of them, who are awful. Lots in the middle somewhere. Worry about the awful ones, and your life will be tainted by them. Focus on the great ones, and your life will be all the better for it. It's up to YOU.

Oooops.... digital diarrhea struck again. I need to recalibrate the patented @Ravioli "Don't Post This" filter, too, I guess. Great line.. I needed that laugh.
 
MauleSkinner said:
The “field trip” was for girls only...boys were not welcome. Yes, there were males on that flight, and doing all kinds of other things that day, but they were specifically excluded from this outing. If exclusion and sexism are going to be acceptable, they need to be acceptable for everyone. If they are going to be unacceptable, they need to be unacceptable for everyone.
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Outing? What this not a standard route, flown between two standard destinations, at a standard time? I don't get the high dungeon over the whole thing. By luck of the draw, there are bound to be occasional flights with a female captain and a female copilot. Are you saying that when that happens it is discriminatory against men, notwithstanding hundreds of flights in the air at the same time with two male pilots? Or is that they the women got their picture taken and then Delta's PR department went and made a big deal of it? Personally, I feel sorry for the ladies who had to deal with that PR aspect of the trip. I would have tried to avoid it like the plague. Not sure why you care.
 
Kristin said:
Outing? What this not a standard route, flown between two standard destinations, at a standard time? I don't get the high dungeon over the whole thing. By luck of the draw, there are bound to be occasional flights with a female captain and a female copilot. Are you saying that when that happens it is discriminatory against men, notwithstanding hundreds of flights in the air at the same time with two male pilots? Or is that they the women got their picture taken and then Delta's PR department went and made a big deal of it? Personally, I feel sorry for the ladies who had to deal with that PR aspect of the trip. I would have tried to avoid it like the plague. Not sure why you care.
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I suggest you read the thread about the trip to know what you’re referring to.
 
Kristin said:
I would say for me that it certainly skewed my perspective. As a friend of mine once said: "There are two kinds of girls, girly girls and utility girls." I am clearly of the latter.
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And there are three kinds of men... those that can count, and those that can't.
 
Ravioli said:
But are females really missing anything there?

<-- that dog don't hunt
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What dog? Are you suggesting that Deer Camp doesn't exist or they are all co-ed? Surely you are not suggesting that I find there to be some problem with male only spaces? Nothing I posted suggests that. I think the genders will naturally seek out their own social spaces. This is good, as long as it does not affect anyone's ability to make a living.
 
Kristin said:
There is a difference between the natural selection of deer camp and societally imposed restrictions that have a negative effect on someone's ability to support themselves and get along in world. I think safe-spaces for guys are pretty likely to be available into eternity.
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Not trying to play devil's advocate, but there's "safe-spaces" for women career-wise, too. We just may not like them very much as atypical females. :) The vast majority of child-care/education teachers are women, and in that setting, a guy actually has to follow different rules and doesn't have all the "privileges" that a female teacher has. And usually has a lot of resistance to overcome. (As Musechaser, who actually knows what he's talking about, just said. I need to think faster or I look like I'm plagiarizing people. LOL) Or librarians. I've yet to meet a male librarian (that wasn't at a college), despite the many different libraries I've visited. I suppose you could argue that who wants those jobs as a woman, but jobs where women are preferred do exist.

Personally, the whole fad of making a minority feel welcome by giving them extra perks is stupid, because it's still separating them out as different. But that's just my opinion.
 
Kristin said:
When you go up seeing that women are capable of all sorts of things, then that is internalized.
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This was exactly the point of the Delta outreach effort. Or any of the countless "women in STEM" efforts that I have been a part of.

Societal messaging about "boy jobs and girl jobs" is everywhere. Subtle and pernicious. And not always intentional or by ill-meaning people, grumpy or otherwise.
It comes from men and from women. It tells girls that it's important to be pretty, and tells boys that it's important to be successful. It comes from movies and TV and advertising and magazines and fashion and the aisles in the toy store and the idle chitchat around the dinner table. It's not overt. It cannot be made illegal. Sometimes it happens just through the lack of any role models and a willingness to stand by and do nothing and chalk it up to "nature". It comes from who you see, in what uniforms, on your airline flights.

@MuseChaser, it sounds as though your wife got different (and very positive) messaging, or had the strength to ignore the negative, which is great either way. I did too. I was exposed to a very strong "girls can do anything" message throughout my childhood. So, I suspect (?), did the women we're hearing from on this board, or else they wouldn't be here. But it also sounds from your own experience as though you understand on some level how brutal and ubiuquitous societal pressures are. Perhaps that is the common ground we can start from. Not all kids are as strong as you, as able to say "no" to everything around them. Some need more. To see something else. Be exposed to other options, other people. Maybe to meet one woman pilot. ONE.

In my dream world, I don't think the ratio in aviation would naturally settle at 50/50. I'm not asking for that. I'm just asking to let us try to combat the messaging. With a counter-message. One that both men and women need to hear.
 
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@coolplane47,

I think its cool that you are interested in aviation. My wife bucked a father who thought it was a dumb idea and wouldn't help her with it (financially or otherwise).

Along the way she ran into her share of "sexism", thankfully never violent but still not right. Typically guys getting preference, not believing she could fly, not bothering to remember her name. But I'm guessing more than one Captain has not bothered to recall a FO's name. My wife had a great cure, she would just call the Captain by the wrong name until he gave in LOL!

Maybe from above, you can see that it wasn't handed to her on a plate. A thick skin was required. But she didn't give up. I suspect you will still experience the same some 25yrs later. Ideally it would completely non-existent but were not there yet. I am sure that you will be far more protected once you reach corporate world.

So knowing its not a perfect world...will you give up your dream of being a pilot?

Her advice...go for it, expect it to better but not perfect. Fly! Also, she really enjoyed the 99's.
 
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