Plane to Buy - Long Term Planning

WDD

WDD

Final Approach
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Oct 16, 2019
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Vintage Snazzy (so my adult children say)
So, in 3 - 5 years IF I retire early, could buy a plane.

Mission:
1) 60% of hours - Fly my wife to places she wants to go - beach, visit friends and family, etc.
  • 2 - 3 hours max one way / each leg
  • Would like 130/135 kts or faster
  • A nice IFR platform
  • These X Country trips will usually have only wife and I
2) 40% of hours - Buzz around on Weekends for $200 pancake / hamburger
  • Can handle a grass strip 2750 long
  • Could be 1 - 3 in the plane for this
Wants:
  • Sit up seating. Skylane sits fine. A Vans or Mooney probably sits too low (analog - SUV seating posture vs Miata)
  • A bit of elbow room. Tiger a bit tight, Skylane is OK, wider would be a bonus
  • Four Seats. Most of the time will only use 2, but want the option of the back seat.
  • Not buy a plane with a burned out engine - something at most 1,100 hours on a 2,000 hr engine
  • Avionics - I've come to the conclusion that one has to buy a plane and pay to rip out the panel to get close to that they need. Need IFR - so GTN 650, GTX 345, CDI/HSI's, some sort of audio panel and some sort of 2nd com and nav. Bonus would be 275's to get rid of the vacuum system, and an auto pilot. A G3 would be of course the best - but I don't see that happening.
  • A cockpit interior that doesn't look like a worn out 1970's funeral home decked out in red velour or faded pea green.
Resources: I'm figuring $140k for some combination of buying the plane ($100k or less?) and panel / cockpit update ($40,000 ?). At future time of purchase I will be Instrument rated, more than likely commercial rated, and have 250 + hours.

Contenders
C 182, either straight leg or RG
Pros: Fits the bill well, lots to choose from, parts available
Cons: No planes in that price range, fuel burn highest of the group. RG version could be maintenance heavy?

C 177 RG
Pros: Can get an honest 135 kts or a bit more, widest of the options, looks to be sub $100k
prices. Easy to get in and out of.
Cons: Few for sale / to choose from. Extra cost for insurance being complex/rg/high performance?? Extra maintenance costs? older model - parts available?

Piper Arrow II
Pros: Seems to be some to choose from, can fit budget, probably lots of parts.
Cons: DK about width or seating position. Extra cost for insurance being complex/rg/high performance? Maintenance? Not crazy about only 1 door, but I've never been in an Arrow. Lots of Arrow 3's with T Tails, but I've read they are a bit wonky at low speed, Arrow 1 is slow with only 180 hp, Arrow 3 has 200 HP but slower than Arrow 2.

Thoughts?
 
Any of those planes will meet your mission, and you have plenty of $$ budgeted to get a nice one. It's a seller's market right now, so IMO you should remain open to all 3 choices and move when you get a good deal on an airframe you trust.
 
I was going to suggest a Bonanza but like the Arrow, it only has one door. So that is no good. :rolleyes:
 
WDD said:
Bonus would be 275's to get rid of the vacuum system, and an auto pilot.
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you could go dual G5(cheaper option) and still rip out the vacuum assuming the plane doesnt have an AP that requires vacuum drive AI
 
Of the options, which would be better? What am I missing? For example, would an Arrow2 or Cardinal have trouble with short grass strips? The club I'm in had problems with the 182 RG's gear - ended up costing $40,000 to fix with salvage parts. That kind of "shock" I would like to avoid. Insurance astronomical for a complex / HP with RG vs something else? I assume an Archer isn't going to work / a bit slow?
 
182 is the only HP of the three, so no need to worry about that with the other two. Between the Cardinal and Arrow I'd choose the Cardinal for the extra door and cabin access, RG is a wash between the two.
 
Sierra_Hotel said:
182 is the only HP of the three, so no need to worry about that with the other two. Between the Cardinal and Arrow I'd choose the Cardinal for the extra door and cabin access, RG is a wash between the two.
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The Cardinal RG has an engine at 200 hp. I assumed that would make it High Performance.
 
How about a Piper 235 or Dakota? Do you prefer a low wing or a high wing? I really like 182's but 180's are much cooler. :cool: If you go retractable, insurance will be higher. I read a great comment somewhere here recently and he said..."Buy a plane you can keep not necessarily something you can afford at the time of purchase". Great advice.
 
WDD said:
The Cardinal RG has an engine at 200 hp. I assumed that would make it High Performance.
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You would think so, but the FARs are pretty clear about greater than 200 being the requirement.
 
@WDD - Maybe I missed it, how much of your flying will be at higher elevations (eg. 5000msl or higher)?
 
Grumman, TB20, Commander might be options.
 
I think Dakota/235 are sweet planes, nice cruise and W&B!

But the OPs comments about seating and room...there is definitely a difference between 182 / 177 and the 235 family. That's based on rides in our 182 and a Dakota. Then again I'm a big dude and for 2 FAA adults the only real difference would probably be 1 or 2 doors and looking down.
 
I know everyone wants to throw their plane in the mix, so I'll do the same. Comanche 250/260. I have $80K ish in ours and we have full glass (no vacuum pumps), WAAS, ADS-B in/out, and full axis GPSS autopilot. Exceeds all your requirements but loses points due to the single door. It's designed for use on grass, cruises 155-160kts on 12-14gph, 1000NM range, great IFR platform, wide 45in cabin, 1200+lb useful load, Service ceiling of FL200, climbs 1200fpm and many other benefits. Most people think they are getting "old", which is true but I have never had to wait on any parts. The entire airframe is zinc-chromate prior to being built, so no real worries of corrosion. About 5yrs ago was probably the sweet spot to buy these planes because value has definitely gone up. Good examples can be had for under $60K. Throw $30-$40K in avionics and "catch up work", you'll have your forever plane under $100K
 
WDD said:
X country flying over 5 k, so I’d say 60-70%.
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Shoot. I worded my question poorly. I meant will you be frequently departing airports where the airport elevation is above 5000ft (eg Denver, mountainous areas, etc).
 
182RG. That can be had in that price range with current avionics.
 
WDD said:
Piper Arrow II
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Flight plan at 140 knots at 10gph
Great IFR platform
Comfortable for two on longish flights. You can fit four for shorter flights. (Or three depending on the size of the folks)
Interior - haha that depends on the plane of course. Ours is a bit ‘70s but they are all different
Avionics - get one that has already been upgraded. Ours has nice enough stuff in the panel. 430w, Aspen EFD 1000 Pro, TruTrak dual axis
Doors - you get used to the one door.
Mx - drop dead simple to maintain. Even with the gear.

Bonanza is the answer, of course. But if not the Bo, I highly recommend the Arrow for this kind of mission. I had a similar mission, and the Arrow is great for $100 hamburgers or trips to the beach or seeing the folks 3 hours away.
 
Beech Sierra. 3 big doors. Roomy cabin. Lower acquisition cost than all other contenders listed. Very stable. Beech quality. Well within budget with plenty of $$ left for upgrades.

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk
 
As usual, 182. The shortish grass strip is the clincher in this analysis. Maybe I’m even more out of touch than I realize, but how is $140,000 not enough to buy a decent 182?
 
Sinistar said:
Shoot. I worded my question poorly. I meant will you be frequently departing airports where the airport elevation is above 5000ft (eg Denver, mountainous areas, etc).
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Never
 
Would a canopy in a Tiger overcome the two door requirement?
 
Gmonnig said:
I know everyone wants to throw their plane in the mix, so I'll do the same. Comanche 250/260. I have $80K ish in ours and we have full glass (no vacuum pumps), WAAS, ADS-B in/out, and full axis GPSS autopilot. Exceeds all your requirements but loses points due to the single door. It's designed for use on grass, cruises 155-160kts on 12-14gph, 1000NM range, great IFR platform, wide 45in cabin, 1200+lb useful load, Service ceiling of FL200, climbs 1200fpm and many other benefits. Most people think they are getting "old", which is true but I have never had to wait on any parts. The entire airframe is zinc-chromate prior to being built, so no real worries of corrosion. About 5yrs ago was probably the sweet spot to buy these planes because value has definitely gone up. Good examples can be had for under $60K. Throw $30-$40K in avionics and "catch up work", you'll have your forever plane under $100K
Click to expand...

Wow. Nice plane!
 
AA5Bman said:
As usual, 182. The shortish grass strip is the clincher in this analysis. Maybe I’m even more out of touch than I realize, but how is $140,000 not enough to buy a decent 182?
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Not with the prices I see on trade a plane
 
WDD said:
Love the tiger - but a bit cramped for the “last plane I buy”. And in addition there are so few for sale - and kind of pricey.
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I lost my Tiger to a hailstorm in June. Had to make the same decision (my insurance was below current Tiger prices). Went out and got a J35 Bonanza. Still training but solid platform. Tigers are really great but admittedly overpriced currently.
 
WDD said:
Not with the prices I see on trade a plane
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Okay I had to look. It’s true that you can’t find a cream puff 182 with exactly the avionics you spec’ed in that price range. But you basically can’t find one exactly as quoted at all, so I think you’re pickin’ nits.
Without trying too hard, there are numerous very nice looking planes in the low $100s that you could add a G5 to, connect up to their existing 530s or 430s and existing autopilots, get GPSS out of the deal and have a killer IFR-capable traveling machine. That’s a $5k upgrade. You’re stumbling right over the obvious answer in my opinion.

if you must have the latest avionics (650/750, GTX345, GMA345), latest autopilot (GFC500), in a late model bird with new interior and new paint and low time engines... well...
 
TheFB said:
Tigers are really great but admittedly overpriced currently.
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As my Dad always told me: “you get what you pay for”.
....and re the spaciousness issue, I trained in c172s and own a Tiger. I’ve noted no significant difference
 
I own a Tiger and was gonna throw my vote that way until you said 2,750 grass strip with up to 3. While it could often do it, depending on DA, grass condition, weight and obstacles, there would be better performers. I guess it depends how important that is to you. I'll go ahead and say 182 if you want to fly into some short-ish grass strips.
 
AA5Bman said:
if you must have the latest avionics (650/750, GTX345, GMA345), latest autopilot (GFC500), in a late model bird with new interior and new paint and low time engines... well...
Click to expand...

Not that extreme. Don’t need a Lexus interior - just something that doesn’t look like a bear hibernated in a 70 Buick. Age? 50 years old is fine. Engine? A mid life engine should do just fine. If I’m keeping it for 10- 15 years yeah I want a 650 and a 345 so it doesn’t crap out in 6 months and I can get ADSB traffic. Don’t need a G3 (would of course be nice LOL).
 
Sierra_Hotel said:
182 is the only HP of the three, so no need to worry about that with the other two. Between the Cardinal and Arrow I'd choose the Cardinal for the extra door and cabin access, RG is a wash between the two.
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I'm biased towards aircraft still in production. Easier to obtain new parts as an option.
 
WDD said:
A cockpit interior that doesn't look like a worn out 1970's funeral home decked out in red velour or faded pea green.
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well there goes about 95% of the GA market

With a $100K budget that gives you a lot of options actually. If you buy a 182 that basically eats up the entire budget

There are some great Cherokee/Lance/Six out there. Planes can take abuse, are comfortable, and in my opinion are undervalued
 
WDD said:
Thoughts?
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I think you want a 182.

if you're going to consider an Arrow, you might as well consider a Bonanza.

Your budget puts you right on the edge of an early SR-20. It meets your speed and then some, has a great safety feature to save your wife if something happens to you, and an interior that most definitely does not look like a washed up 1970s porn movie.

I can count the number of times I've had more than two people in a plane one one hand. If you're willing to do your homework, get help, and go down to 2 seats, look at a RV7/8 for under 100k. The speed crushes anything else mentioned and with a knowledgeable guide, you can get something that was well built without weird systems.
 
Not sure why everyone says Tigers are overpriced. Yes, they are hard to come by. Yes, they are more expensive than what they were 2 years ago. But seriously, someone show me a better combination of speed, utility, efficiency, cost of ownership, and fun factor for the money. It punches way over it's class.

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk
 
Tigers are not overpriced IMHO. Great airplanes. I just rented one for 6 tach hours last weekend. But they are pricy - too much for me.
 
WDD said:
Not that extreme. Don’t need a Lexus interior - just something that doesn’t look like a bear hibernated in a 70 Buick. Age? 50 years old is fine. Engine? A mid life engine should do just fine. If I’m keeping it for 10- 15 years yeah I want a 650 and a 345 so it doesn’t crap out in 6 months and I can get ADSB traffic. Don’t need a G3 (would of course be nice LOL).
Click to expand...

Then buy any one of the 182s on controller right now that are priced between $100k and $130k and add/upgrade as needed. Your mission is plane agnostic for most of your requirements. If you want to go from short grass with three people, that realistically eliminates everything else you have listed but the 182.

So what’s wrong with these planes?
https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/198038567/1956-cessna-182-skylane-piston-single-aircraft < you have $70,000 of upgrades to play with before you hit your budget. Low time engine. Some of us think the 50s models are the best anyway. Slap the wing extensions on there and get another 400# of GW and have a real performer.

https://www.controller.com/listing/...80-cessna-182r-skylane-piston-single-aircraft < $20k worth of play money checks a lot of boxes here.

https://www.controller.com/listing/...73-cessna-182p-skylane-piston-single-aircraft < sick plane sick engine, I’d probably do nothing to this plane at first. $20k under budget.

https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/196268237/1957-cessna-182-skylane-piston-single-aircraft < I would LOVE to need to spend $80k upgrading this plane. That would be fun.

i don’t see the problem here.

PS the 2 gallons and hour extra the 182 is going to burn is nothing in the grand scheme of things. It’s not like a Cardinal or other options don’t burn any fuel at all - gotta think incremental bucks, and we’re talking $8 an hour here.
 
Some great ideas - Hadn’t thought of a plane older than the 70’s. I should expand that thinking.

I’ve been getting information / costs primarily from trade a plane. What other sources of information on prices / planes for sale should to of I start reviewing?

Very appreciative of the thoughts and advice - learning a lot on this topic - thanks!
 
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