IFR training pilot cannot fly level and straight ... when changing radio frequency or briefing plate

[Chapel K.]

Am a new private pilot with about 23 hours of IFR training in the airplane. I seem to have more problems keeping the airplane on a steady level straight flight. The moment I try to tune in a different frequency, or to take note of the destination airport ATIS, or to look at an approach chart, my plane would start to either climb or decent simultaneously flying to left or right. Actually more often toward the left. By the way, I fly control stick with my left hand. Anyone had this problem when flying instruments? I would really appreciate hearing how you have overcome it.

Many thanks.

 

[simtech]

Take your hand off the yoke when you look away.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

Join my club! I just got signed off for my check ride. I had the same issues.

-Trim, trim, trim
-Fly with 2 fingers, or let go of the stick, when programming
-Keep scanning, scan, scan
-One button, resume scan, one button, scan

 

[WannFly]

I used to have the same problem even in private and in IR training realizing that i still have the problem, but much less. ATC calls for traffic, i am scanning outside and by the time i look inside i am like 20 degrees off. let the yoke / stick go after you trim

 

[Chapel K.]

Join my club! I just got signed off for my check ride. I had the same issues.

-Trim, trim, trim
-Fly with 2 fingers, or let go of the stick, when programming
-Keep scanning, scan, scan
-One button, resume scan, one button, scan

Thanks for sharing your experience! Very helpful. From the three replies, one thing in common is to trim the plane then temporarily "let go of the control" when operating radio or other stuff. I started to wondering why my CFII not letting me trim my plane. He asked me to "focus on flying the plane" and specifically said, "don't trim it". Anyway, will try your advice during my next week's training.

 

[smv]

Thanks for sharing your experience! Very helpful. From the three replies, one thing in common is to trim the plane then temporarily "let go of the control" when operating radio or other stuff. I started to wondering why my CFII not letting me trim my plane. He asked me to "focus on flying the plane" and specifically said, "don't trim it". Anyway, will try your advice during my next week's training.

Your CFI actually forbids you from trimming after you have your pitch set with the yoke? Time for a new CFI. I do see a lot of certificated pilots flailing away at the trim WAYYY too much, not really understanding how to use it correctly. To forbid you from using trim at all, however, something wrong with that dude...

 

[Marshall Alexander]

Trimming is part of "focusing" on flying the airplane.

 

[PaulS]

Trim it.

 

[GMascelli]

As others already said....trim is your friend. Always keep the scan going, and fix the change that you see in your scan. Some students (I was guilty) will scan and move on without addressing the trend. It was in the beginning in the overload, drink from the firehose phase. You will work through this once things slow down in the cockpit and you become comfortable with the tasks at hand.

 

[Initial Fix]

+1 trim and hands off the yoke. Make sure the plane is also rigged correctly.

The plane I did my IFR training in would bank left anytime I would take my hand off the yoke as the ailerons were not rigged. What a pain!

 

[midlifeflyer]

My two rules.

1. @simtech's take your hand off the yoke. Or at least loosen it. We all have a bit of a tendency to pressure the yoke a bit when not paying direct attention. P-factor has nothing on my personal left turning tendency.

2. The "three second rule." Do not be away from the primary flight instruments for more than three seconds at a time.

 

[Velocity173]

You need an auto pilot. Obviously having the plane trimmed out is a big part of it but try and break up the tasks outside of aircraft control. There are aircraft such as some helos that don’t want to go where they’re pointed. You can’t bury your head in the cockpit for long periods of time so you’ve got to divide your attention. But just like for pilots who have problems talking to ATC and aircraft control, over time you’ll get better.

 

[airheadpenguin]

Trim is the way to get the plane stable long term, set the trim so that at the speed you're going it will be level. You then make small adjustments with the yoke. You should not be going back to the trim all the time though, how much turbulence are you in? In the chop you'll need to do more fine tuning with the yoke, if it's clear and smooth you should not need to touch anything once you're trimmed

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Jim Carpenter]

I have no idea why any CFII would tell you not to use your trim (though may be more to the story). I consider the trim wheel one of the essential flight controls, especially regarding instrument flying.
In a very concise nutshell, this is what it boils down to:

Join my club! I just got signed off for my check ride. I had the same issues.

-Trim, trim, trim
-Fly with 2 fingers, or let go of the stick, when programming
-Keep scanning, scan, scan
-One button, resume scan, one button, scan

 

[Juliet Hotel]

I started to wondering why my CFII not letting me trim my plane. He asked me to "focus on flying the plane" and specifically said, "don't trim it". Anyway, will try your advice during my next week's training.

Get a new CFI. Can't put it any plainer than that. I think I understand what he's trying to do, but I don't agree with his method. Trim exists for a reason. Use it.

 

[Larry in TN]

I have no idea why any CFII would tell you not to use your trim (though may be more to the story)

The only thing that comes to mind is if the student is flying the airplane with the trim wheel instead of using the yoke to set the pitch then trimming away any pressure.

 

[David Megginson]

Am a new private pilot with about 23 hours of IFR training in the airplane. I seem to have more problems keeping the airplane on a steady level straight flight. The moment I try to tune in a different frequency, or to take note of the destination airport ATIS, or to look at an approach chart, my plane would start to either climb or decent simultaneously flying to left or right. Actually more often toward the left. By the way, I fly control stick with my left hand. Anyone had this problem when flying instruments? I would really appreciate hearing how you have overcome it.

Many thanks.

That just means that your scan needs work. No blame on your instructor — not every teacher connects with every student — but maybe try a lesson or two with a different instructor to see if they can help. It's genuinely hard to learn to divide your attention between the map/radio and panel, and it's an easy skill to lose later, so just keep at it. It's the simplest skill to practice on a consumer flight sim at home (just turn on a bit of turbulence to make it realistic; you don't even need a yoke or pedals or anything, b/c you're practicing attention).

One technique that might help is Rod Machado's "musical scan": count out loud, slowly, "a ONE and a TWO and a…" over and over like an old-time band leader. "ONE" can be anything else you need to look at, and "TWO" is always the AI (cross-checked regularly). So " a MAP and a two (AI), and a MAP and a two (AI), and an ALTIMETER and a two (AI), and a RADIO and a two (AI), and a…"

The rhythm will engage another part of your brain in the scan, which should help.

 

[David Megginson]

You need an auto pilot. Obviously having the plane trimmed out is a big part of it but try and break up the tasks outside of aircraft control. There are aircraft such as some helos that don’t want to go where they’re pointed. You can’t bury your head in the cockpit for long periods of time so you’ve got to divide your attention. But just like for pilots who have problems talking to ATC and aircraft control, over time you’ll get better.

That's good advice to a point, but you buy an autopilot in addition to learning how to hand fly, not instead of learning how to hand fly. It's essential that the OP learn how to hand fly safely, even in the face of distractions and task juggling. After that, the A/P will be great for workload reduction.

 

[dmspilot]

Scan the radio or chart just like you would scan an instrument. Tune the radio one digit at a time. Read the chart one item at a time.

 

[Salty]

It’s possible the instructor is trying to stop pilot induced oscillation. If you screw with the trim constantly and don’t let it settle you may be fighting the phugoid oscillation which, will cause pitch changes to continue, but less and less each time, unless you keep screwing with it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phugoid

The subject is covered in quite extensive detail beginning on page 5-14 of the phak https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/phak/media/07_phak_ch5.pdf

 

[TommyG]

CFII said not to trim. You need to move on and find a new one. In reality this is something that should have been taught early in PPL training. So that 2 CFIs you need to have a talk with.

 

[PaulS]

You know, I can't imagine a CFII saying this, there has to be more to this story.

 

[sarangan]

Am a new private pilot with about 23 hours of IFR training in the airplane. I seem to have more problems keeping the airplane on a steady level straight flight. The moment I try to tune in a different frequency, or to take note of the destination airport ATIS, or to look at an approach chart, my plane would start to either climb or decent simultaneously flying to left or right. Actually more often toward the left. By the way, I fly control stick with my left hand. Anyone had this problem when flying instruments? I would really appreciate hearing how you have overcome it.

Many thanks.

As others noted, trim is critical. But even that won't solve the problem unless you are in perfectly smooth air. The ability to scan the primary flight instruments while attending to other tasks is a skill you will eventually master. This is what makes single pilot IFR hard. During training, your instructor should be pushing you close to your saturation point. Then when you start using the autopilot, you will find everything much easier.

 

[David Megginson]

You know, I can't imagine a CFII saying this, there has to be more to this story.

As someone else mentioned, it was probably "don't use the trim to control altitude", not "don't use the trim." Phugoids are annoying enough in VMC, but in IMC (real or simulated), they will really throw you off.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Funny. I didn't mention trim in my "two rules" because I thought proper trimming was a given. Apparently I was wrong about that

 

[write-stuff]

Break your attention into 3-5 second chunks. Tuning the radio?
1. Note the frequency.
2. Return to your scan.
3. Put your hand on the knobs. Turn it a few clicks.
4. Keep your hand on the knobs and return to your scan.
5. Back to the radio, continue dialing the frequency.
6. Back to your scan.

 

[eman1200]

That's good advice to a point, but you buy an autopilot in addition to learning how to hand fly, not instead of learning how to hand fly. It's essential that the OP learn how to hand fly safely, even in the face of distractions and task juggling. After that, the A/P will be great for workload reduction.

Apparently you missed the big winky face after his autopilot comment.

 

[eman1200]

Apparently you missed the big winky face after his autopilot comment.

hahaha, I said ‘big winky’

 

[David Megginson]

Apparently you missed the big winky face after his autopilot comment.

Entirely possible that I didn't see it -- I miss more as I get older -- or perhaps he edited and added that after I missed the irony without it. Either way, I missed something.

Also, as I'm sure you know, there's an inverse relationship between the size of the winky and the size of the plane, because men of a certain age do tend to overcompensate.

 

[chemgeek]

He asked me to "focus on flying the plane" and specifically said, "don't trim it".

Wha? Trimming is essential to instrument flight. Indeed, the first stop in IFR training is learning your pitch/power combinations for various flight regimes. You set the desired pitch/power combo, then trim out the pressure required to maintain desired attitude, and the airplane pretty much flies itself in that regime if you leave it alone. In bumpy air, it takes a little more care and feeding, but its more like corralling large deviations and not continuously mothering the airplane.

I like the "three second rule." Turn a knob or select a menu item, then corral your attitude, then turn the knob, etc. If you have even a 1-axis autopilot, it makes fiddling with the avionics or briefing a plate oh so much easier. You should be able to cope without, but I really like my wing-leveler for taking some of the load off for making extensive routing changes or briefing approach plates.

 

[Chapel K.]

Lots of wonderful and helpful replies/advice. Will try out in my next week's flight and will report back to you all!

 

[airheadpenguin]

I think there's a disconnect with either what the CFII said or how it was received and presented here the communication problem is real. If you're chasing your altitude with trim I can see the CFII trying to get the student to lay off of it but there are some good demos to reinforce this.

To the OP, go up on a VFR day not under the foggles get trimmed level and reduce power by 200 RPM or 2" MP do not retrim notice what happens. Then return to normal power and notice that your pitch attitude returns to level after some time. If you're having trouble with the trim walking away once you get the plane leveled out trimmed initially your problem might actually be the friction lock on the throttle isn't set properly and that's wandering around on you. If you're level and add power you'll climb to maintain the trimmed speed, if you reduce power you're descend for the same reason. The 200RPM/2"MP demo is exaggerated but even variations of 50 RPM can have a noticeable impact.

If you're chasing these variations with the trim you're only responding to the symptom not the cause. What tolerances is your instructor after, is it just staying +/- 100ft? That shouldn't be a problem with proper trim. If he's trying to be a harda$$ and go for +/- 25 to make a point or build safety margin early on I can see that as an issue of expectations, you should be able to negotiate making the enveloper smaller over time as you gain proficiency. If he's not giving you strategies to get the thing leveled out ask him to demonstrate how he does it while he talks through it.

 

[Ravioli]

I started to wondering why my CFII not letting me trim my plane. He asked me to "focus on flying the plane" and specifically said, "don't trim it".

Question: Don't Trim at all, or don't use the electric trim? My CFI told me if he caught me using the electric trim he would break my thumb. His justification was that I wouldn't "feel it right" and I'd be constantly chasing it. That was in a PA28-180. I'll never know if he was right, but I do know how it feels when I'm not trimmed.

 

[Tantalum]

I haven't read the thread, but in response to the op this just sounds like a basic trim and over control issue..

Trim the plane to fly straight and level hands off

Then when you are an IMC don't fly any different, make small corrections with trim and your fingers

Never look away from more than 5 seconds, that can be an eternity in flying.. always fly the plane first.. brief the root and approach plates on the ground so that when you are flying you're not all of a sudden sitting there trying to figure out basic things about the approach like minimums, etc

 

[midlifeflyer]

Break your attention into 3-5 second chunks. Tuning the radio?
1. Note the frequency.
2. Return to your scan.
3. Put your hand on the knobs. Turn it a few clicks.
4. Keep your hand on the knobs and return to your scan.
5. Back to the radio, continue dialing the frequency.
6. Back to your scan.

Bullseye.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

Question: Don't Trim at all, or don't use the electric trim? My CFI told me if he caught me using the electric trim he would break my thumb. His justification was that I wouldn't "feel it right" and I'd be constantly chasing it. That was in a PA28-180. I'll never know if he was right, but I do know how it feels when I'm not trimmed.

I did all my primary training in planes with manual trim, did my instrument and commercial in a plane with electric trim. My take: Meh, trim is trim. The indicator that the plane is or isn't in trim is in the yoke, not the trim control. You remove pressure on the yoke and if it stays put, its in trim. It if doesn't stay put, its not in trim.

For sure you can overfly trim. But overflying is overflying whether you're doing it with trim or with the stick/yoke. There are good techniques to get students to stop overflying the plane, but IMHO telling the student to not use trim is not one of them.

And I guess I should note, its not just students that can suffer from overflying the plane. I remember a long XC from NJ to FL riding in the back of a packed skydive Caravan. The boss was having one of the office guys (a newly minted commercial pilot) do most of the flying so he could build time for the insurance mins. I just wanted a free ride to FL and I could've cared less about building Caravan time even though I had very little at that point. Halfway through the boss tells me go sit in the right seat for an hour or so to get some time. I go up and grab the seat and put on some headphones and sit arms folded just observing. Boy wonder is flying away in the left seat and I can't help but notice that he's making an awful lot of work for himself constantly adjusting in what is otherwise smooth air. He even comments on how much he has to work to keep the plane on altitude and on course.

At one point he asks me if I can hold the plane for him while he takes his sweatshirt off. I say sure no problem. I keep my arms folded and simply move my feet from flat on the floor to the pedals and say go ahead I got it. He lets go at starts wrestling to get his sweatshirt off while I just let everything settle and just apply subtle rudder pressure now and then to keep everything on coarse. He gets his sweatshirt off and his headphones back on and says 'I got it'.

Then he notices I haven't really moved and my arms are still folded and we're still on altitude and heading and he says oh wow you didn't have to touch it that whole time. I said nope, and you wouldn't either if you just let it settle and fly like it wants to. That one statement taught him a lot and no edict about not touching trim was required. Just sayin.

 

[Jeff767]

1. FIRE YOUR CFI!
2. There should be only two states of trim. The aircraft is properly trimmed or if not you are actively retrimming the aircraft.

 

[frfly172]

Trimming in IFR is key, keeps the workload easier.

 

[steingar]

Fly the airplane, play with radios. Fly the airplane, play with radios

 

[Sierra_Hotel]

Thanks for sharing your experience! Very helpful. From the three replies, one thing in common is to trim the plane then temporarily "let go of the control" when operating radio or other stuff. I started to wondering why my CFII not letting me trim my plane. He asked me to "focus on flying the plane" and specifically said, "don't trim it". Anyway, will try your advice during my next week's training.

That's absolutely absurd. Time for a new CFII.