When to abandon the "go" in touch and go

Obviously never flown into an airport with intersecting runways where there's trees in the corners and you can't see the entire place.
You can see everything from the air, and you know if there are airplanes potentially conflicting with your landing. They don't just come out of nowhere.

Maybe it's just the biker in me. I treat all vehicles as potential conflicts and immediately think about what they could do to ruin my day. Maybe you're all cagers who let these things come as a surprise.
 
You can see everything from the air, and you know if there are airplanes potentially conflicting with your landing. They don't just come out of nowhere.

Maybe it's just the biker in me. I treat all vehicles as potential conflicts and immediately think about what they could do to ruin my day. Maybe you're all cagers who let these things come as a surprise.
So, I assume you immediately abort every landing where a plane is holding short of the runway because it may run into the runway at the last moment. Either that, or you can see into the future. Most of us don't have that talent.
 
So, I assume you immediately abort every landing where a plane is holding short of the runway because it may run into the runway at the last moment. Either that, or you can see into the future. Most of us don't have that talent.
No, but I might ask the airplane what he's doing. Get myself on his radar. It has failed and I've had to go around, but not often. Indeed I can only think of one instance, I had just turned final when I decided to go around, and the guy who pulled out was massively apologetic. Part of this is communicating, hearing and being heard. I've never had any experience that would make me think doing touch & gos was some sort of sacred skill that I had to have lest I perish. I've always thought of them as a maneuver you do in training to speed up said training.

And by the way, if there's an airplane holding short of the runway you bet I want to know his intentions. And if I honestly don't I don't land. I've gone elsewhere because there were airplanes doing things I couldn't fathom. Lots of airports where I live.
 
No, but I might ask the airplane what he's doing. Get myself on his radar. It has failed and I've had to go around, but not often. Indeed I can only think of one instance, I had just turned final when I decided to go around, and the guy who pulled out was massively apologetic. Part of this is communicating, hearing and being heard. I've never had any experience that would make me think doing touch & gos was some sort of sacred skill that I had to have lest I perish. I've always thought of them as a maneuver you do in training to speed up said training.

And by the way, if there's an airplane holding short of the runway you bet I want to know his intentions. And if I honestly don't I don't land. I've gone elsewhere because there were airplanes doing things I couldn't fathom. Lots of airports where I live.
Let me know when someone that gets confused about where his brakes are communicates to you about it in a timely fashion. :rolleyes:
 
Note the pilot attempts to steer the airplane like a car, i. e. with the ailerons. I keep seeing/reading accidents like this due to too much driving experience and not recognizing the needed rudder control inputs for aircraft. Flight instructors should emphasize the difference - and I am not one.

My understanding is that this was a student pilot. Not his first solo, but still a student.

Under extreme stress people devolve to their lowest level of *fully* mastered skill. In this case, he hadn't mastered the concept of controlling and aircraft in yaw with the rudder to a sufficient degree to default to that in a high stress situation. He had however fully mastering turning a car with the steering wheel and that bled over into this crisis situation.

Flight instructors need to recognize this limitation in human performance, particularly in students where the level of mastery is very low.

The focus then isn't just on not "steering" with the yoke or stick on the ground, but rather ensuring the student knows what to do in a loss of control situation on landing.

In other words, once the aircraft is firmly on the ground just bring the aircraft to a stop and maybe try not to hit any taxiway lights.

That's also the argument against teaching students to do touch and goes early in their training. It's just too easy for a student to develop the "just cob on power" response to any deviation from the centerline.

----

Similarly, you will also commonly encounter pilots (and not just student pilots) who will use ailerons to pick up a wing in a stall. That seems natural since ailerons are used to correct rolling movement in aircraft. However it signals a substantial misunderstanding of how the ailerons affect the apparent chord line of the wing and effectively increase the AoA on the already stalled wing they are trying to pick up.

If you have enough washout in the wing, you can get away with it in *some* aircraft as the portion of the wing with the ailerons on it is still flying, and the aileron input *might* not be enough to stall it. In other aircraft, particularly in higher performance aircraft where washout is minimal or non existent to improve efficiency, a slight wing drop at the stall may well turn into a full on departure from controlled flight if you try to pick up the wing with the aileron due to both the induced yaw and the now fully stalled wing on that side.

The rudder however works as it advances the dropping wing into the airflow and increases lift without increasing AoA.

Unfortunately, the FAA has become stall phobic on the premise that having student pilots flying around with the stall horn on causes them to ignore it later - a mis application of the concept of normalization of deviance. As a result, fewer instructors seem to be aware of the need for or are unwilling to let the student stall the aircraft, let alone have the student keep it stalled and keep it from falling off to either side with rudder input.

Instead, the FAA now wants instructors to teach students to recover at the first warning of an approaching stall without ever actually stalling. The consequence of this however is that when they do stall at some point it's suddenly a high stress situation as they are encountering it for the first time.
 
You can see everything from the air, and you know if there are airplanes potentially conflicting with your landing. They don't just come out of nowhere.

Maybe it's just the biker in me. I treat all vehicles as potential conflicts and immediately think about what they could do to ruin my day. Maybe you're all cagers who let these things come as a surprise.

Again, you haven't flown into certain fields.
 
At what point does one abandon a go around?
My understanding is that the "go" part of "touch and go" or "go around" has similar decision points as normal taking off.

(a) Decision point during initial take-off or go around: I would mentally go through these check-list-items and decide whether go or no-go: Are you line up to the runway? Is airplane properly configured? Is runway length enough?

(b) Decision point during take-off or go around: Is remaining runway enough for continue take off? Are there abnormal configuration or conditions prevent continue taking off? Am I passing V1 (in a multi-engine)?

My $0.02.
 
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This is patent baloney. You should examine the airport and its surroundings while in the landing pattern. You should announce your intentions and position often. You should know well ahead of time if there is an aircraft that can imperil your landing. The only thing I can see really able to muck up a landing is wildlife galloping onto a runway surrounded by forest. And putting in the power may not be the best option there. It is possible you're just adding energy to an already bad situation. No trying to go around saved my bacon once.
No, this is baloney.
There are plenty of airports where you can’t see some parts of them until short final. My home airport is just a grass strip surrounded by high trees. You can’t see any of the surface on downwind and still can’t see everything on base. Coming from one side, you can’t even see the close end of the runway until you come over the trees. Plus, just because you see that aircraft holding short of the runway doesn’t mean that they won’t pull out unexpectedly, or that they won’t have a failure on the runway after trying to sneak out a departure ahead of you. Plus the deer/wildlife issue you usually can’t see until you are 50-20 off the ground.
 
No, this is baloney.
There are plenty of airports where you can’t see some parts of them until short final. My home airport is just a grass strip surrounded by high trees. You can’t see any of the surface on downwind and still can’t see everything on base. Coming from one side, you can’t even see the close end of the runway until you come over the trees. Plus, just because you see that aircraft holding short of the runway doesn’t mean that they won’t pull out unexpectedly, or that they won’t have a failure on the runway after trying to sneak out a departure ahead of you. Plus the deer/wildlife issue you usually can’t see until you are 50-20 off the ground.

Some people only fly into certain strips, then think that's the only type of airstrip there is, and there isn't any other sort of possibility out there.
 
Back to the OP, "when to abandon the go" , I say it depends, no two situations are the same.

The poor slob in the video went into lizard brain mode. When things went sideways he just reacted without thinking. Obviously bad moves, but mostly lack of experience. Should he have soloed??? Obviously not, but I would think one of the tougher decisions as an instructor is when to let someone loose.

Back to the question, "when to abandon the go", as far as I'm concerned there are a million correct answers to that question, because their are a million different things that can happen.

I do touch and goes, and I am comfortable doing them. I have decided to "not go" many times, usually after buggering up the landing, which for me means floating down the runway. It's not a big deal, the power is pulled for the landing, just keep it pulled and brake as necessary.

The best lesson(s) I've had is when you learn not to rush. I won't do a touch and go on less the 4,000 feet in an SR-22. When I'm with an instructor we may do it on shorter, but that is with an extra set of eyes. The thing about touch and goes is that you land, you are still very near stall speed. So it is very quick acceleration and liftoff usually with most airplanes compared to taking off from a stop.

In the video of the op put up, that guy was in no position to go, he was losing lateral control, he should have just focused on getting back on centerline and stopping. It's a split second decision, you need to make the right one. He poured the coals on, further adding to his control issue. But even at that point, had he not been in freeze mode, he could have, in a split second, pulled the power back out. Unfortunately he didn't have the capacity to do the right thing, he would have been better off to do nothing, he definitely should have "abandoned the go".

But the answer isn't always "don't go", some times it's safer to go.

You really need assess the situation and make the right decision.
 
This video reminds of watching inexperienced people riding jet skis. They get into trouble or are near structures/other vessels and let off of the throttle and crank the steering bar not realizing that jet skis rely on engine thrust to make a turn. They slam into whatever it was they were trying to avoid because they froze up and didn't understand the physics in play. Manufacturers of jet skis only recently caught up to that behavior and have some "rudders" built in to aid in steering when thrust is reduced. Lizard brain, indeed.
 
You can see everything from the air, and you know if there are airplanes potentially conflicting with your landing. They don't just come out of nowhere.

Was on VERY short final a few weeks ago with two at the hold short (Cirrus and a Stinson). Stinson pipes up on final, "Bet you a dollar you get cut off RV" ... sure enough on VERY short final Cirrus pours on the coals and cuts me off (yes I anticipate this on every approach - when I'm on the line I announce holding short). There's a photo of two planes on top of one another I think the field is 52F because there are trees on short final.
 
Was on VERY short final a few weeks ago with two at the hold short (Cirrus and a Stinson). Stinson pipes up on final, "Bet you a dollar you get cut off RV" ... sure enough on VERY short final Cirrus pours on the coals and cuts me off (yes I anticipate this on every approach - when I'm on the line I announce holding short). There's a photo of two planes on top of one another I think the field is 52F because there are trees on short final.
Nope, you were in the wrong. Cirrus pilots always get the right of way. ;) It is written in the POH, so it is required that the pilots follow the rule or they are not airworthy.
 
Was on VERY short final a few weeks ago with two at the hold short (Cirrus and a Stinson). Stinson pipes up on final, "Bet you a dollar you get cut off RV" ... sure enough on VERY short final Cirrus pours on the coals and cuts me off (yes I anticipate this on every approach - when I'm on the line I announce holding short). There's a photo of two planes on top of one another I think the field is 52F because there are trees on short final.

Yup, only Cirrus drivers do stuff like that. :rolleyes:
 
At 44N, from the RWY 35 side, you can only see about 1/3 of the runway, the rest is below the crest of the hill.
Conversely, from the RWY 17 side you can only see 2/3 of the runway.

Here is the video from the "pattern incursion" portion of my day. You can hear the audio, but I apologize for the video. Not a great camera position.
Unfortunately, the batteries died in both cameras so I don't have the runway incursion incident.

 
About the only thing that surprised me in the video was the fact that he left the throttle firewalled while yard-farming and heading straight toward the hangar. I mean, at some point you've got to let off the gas, right?! lol.

I have had students come to me after years of operating tractors. Apparently some tractors have hand-operated throttles that are completely opposite of airplane throttles. Primacy and muscle memory combine to find them pulling the throttle to idle when faced with a "GO AROUND NOW!" situation.
 
Nope, you were in the wrong. Cirrus pilots always get the right of way. ;) It is written in the POH, so it is required that the pilots follow the rule or they are not airworthy.

I need a refresher! I thought it was only when they are taking advantage of the FARs and on the 10 mile straight in final with the pattern full:confused::confused::confused::confused::eek::eek::eek:
 
I have had students come to me after years of operating tractors. Apparently some tractors have hand-operated throttles that are completely opposite of airplane throttles. Primacy and muscle memory combine to find them pulling the throttle to idle when faced with a "GO AROUND NOW!" situation.
I can confirm, many older tractors with column throttles are indeed forward idle/cutoff and back increases. Some negative habit transfer there. Conversely the newer ones have auto-steer and throttles that make me feel like I’m behind my STEC 3100 :)
 
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I can confirm, many older tractors with column throttles are indeed forward idle/cutoff and back increases. Some negative habit transfer there. Conversely the newer ones have auto-steer and throttles that make me feel like I’m behind my STEC 3100 :)

One poor fellow spent 40some years driving the same tractor and simply could not overcome that problem. It was not just high stress situations. Even at cruise when wanting to climb, he would pull back the throttle instead of push. :(
 
Nope, you were in the wrong. Cirrus pilots always get the right of way. ;) It is written in the POH, so it is required that the pilots follow the rule or they are not airworthy.
They infest the highways, too, only they have covered the name badge with one that says "BMW"... :rolleyes:
 
I have had students come to me after years of operating tractors. Apparently some tractors have hand-operated throttles that are completely opposite of airplane throttles. Primacy and muscle memory combine to find them pulling the throttle to idle when faced with a "GO AROUND NOW!" situation.

All of my experience with tractors has been with the throttle mimicking the Vernier controls, so I didn't have to unlearn that for flying. Of course 90% of our tractors are Kubota which are fairly modern in the tractor world, so I can't speak to the Farmall/Ford 8N/Massey stuff.
 
I have had students come to me after years of operating tractors. Apparently some tractors have hand-operated throttles that are completely opposite of airplane throttles. Primacy and muscle memory combine to find them pulling the throttle to idle when faced with a "GO AROUND NOW!" situation.

Something about the push/pull knob style throttle bugs me, my mental instincts say that pulling out should increase throttle, pushing in should kill it. I have driven quite a few different types of motorized vehicles including tractors. I think, however I'm mentally picturing the throttle lever on the side of an automotive carb where the linkage connects... pull back to increase power. Not sure really exactly why, it just doesn't feel right.

I fly a Piper with a throttle quadrant style lever instead and it makes perfect sense to my lizard brain, so that solves that.
 
I’ve had multiple Ford and Massey tractors. The Fords all had idle forward, I think my Massey’s had the opposite . I’ve been around tractors and airplanes my whole life and it never occurred to me that those might be confused. I did have an older farmer student pull the throttle to idle at a really bad time once, may that was why.
 
Something about the push/pull knob style throttle bugs me, my mental instincts say that pulling out should increase throttle, pushing in should kill it. I have driven quite a few different types of motorized vehicles including tractors. I think, however I'm mentally picturing the throttle lever on the side of an automotive carb where the linkage connects... pull back to increase power. Not sure really exactly why, it just doesn't feel right.

I fly a Piper with a throttle quadrant style lever instead and it makes perfect sense to my lizard brain, so that solves that.

Push quadrant forward, push knob forward...samesies.
 
Motorcycles have the front brake on the right hand side, and the clutch on the left hand side.

Bicycles have the front brake on the LEFT, and the rear brake on the right hand. I know some people who ride both who have swapped the brakes on the bicycle to match the motorcycle.

I’ve never had problems using them as they are, but apparently some have trouble.
 
Motorcycles have the front brake on the right hand side, and the clutch on the left hand side.

Bicycles have the front brake on the LEFT, and the rear brake on the right hand. I know some people who ride both who have swapped the brakes on the bicycle to match the motorcycle.

I’ve never had problems using them as they are, but apparently some have trouble.
After riding motorcycles for decades I often grab the wrong brake when emergency stopping on a bicycle. I realize it instantly, but the initial instinct will never go away.

Oddly, it took me about 4 hours of touch n goes before I stopped getting the throttle backward occasionally. I can’t explain why, I don’t recall driving a tractor that worked that way, but my brain just thought it should work the other way.
 
I can guess what happened in the original video, I had a similar "excursion" in my primary training (though I caught it before I left the runway). If you leave full flaps down in those light cessnas, they will like to come up on the nose gear. Now you're flying a unicycle. The best bet is just close the throttle and let the mains get firmly planted again. However, you can maintain control if you're on your game with use of ailerons and rudders (many students however are not).

What happened to me is that our 141 school didn't allow soloing students to do touch and goes, so I'd never done them by myself. What I hadn't realized was that when doing dual touch and goes that my instructor was "helping" me by raising the flaps on the go. On my checkride, I put full power in and started heading for the edge of the runway. After the saving the first one of those, the examiner told me that if I headed to the side of the runway again, I'd fail. I figured it out the second time.

Amusingly, I was convinced I had failed at the end of the ride. The examiner told me I should go out and practice my touch and goes. I said that the school didn't allow them to be done solo. He said "That's only for student pilots. You've got your license now." That's when I realized I had passed.
 
After riding motorcycles for decades I often grab the wrong brake when emergency stopping on a bicycle. I realize it instantly, but the initial instinct will never go away.
Squeezing both is the proper emergency stop on a bike and works reasonably on a motorcycle as well.
Oddly, it took me about 4 hours of touch n goes before I stopped getting the throttle backward occasionally. I can’t explain why, I don’t recall driving a tractor that worked that way, but my brain just thought it should work the other way.
My boat has a throttle that looks pretty much identical to the one in my airplane, but works the opposite way (in=low RPMS). I've had a few "surges" when I worked it the wrong way.
 
Squeezing both is the proper emergency stop on a bike and works reasonably on a motorcycle as well.

My boat has a throttle that looks pretty much identical to the one in my airplane, but works the opposite way (in=low RPMS). I've had a few "surges" when I worked it the wrong way.

I've driven out of the airport parking lot and centered myself of the yellow line once...
 
Squeezing both is the proper emergency stop on a bike and works reasonably on a motorcycle as well.

My boat has a throttle that looks pretty much identical to the one in my airplane, but works the opposite way (in=low RPMS). I've had a few "surges" when I worked it the wrong way.
Grabbing a whole lot of front brake and a little rear brake is much better than the opposite.
 
Amusingly, I was convinced I had failed at the end of the ride.

I do not understand why instructors sending an applicant to a check ride do not stress the point that the DPE must tell you the moment you fail the ride. Rather than concentrating on what they are doing, they are often sitting there worrying about whether or not that last maneuver busted the ride. Seems entirely unneccessary to me. :dunno:
 
I do not understand why instructors sending an applicant to a check ride do not stress the point that the DPE must tell you the moment you fail the ride. Rather than concentrating on what they are doing, they are often sitting there worrying about whether or not that last maneuver busted the ride. Seems entirely unneccessary to me. :dunno:

Thats a great point. My Instrument DPE did that very clearly. They all should.
 
Thats a great point. My Instrument DPE did that very clearly. They all should.

By the time I got to the first (and only) checkride I failed (my initial CFI) I fully understood that and when it happened, it really was no big deal.

During the Oral portion my brain froze up and for whatever reason I simply could not explain how to fill out a nav log for a cross county flight plan. I was stammering along when the DPE looks up at me and asks, "Are you really providing me with effective instruction right now?" "No. No, I am not..." We decided to continue with the rest of the checkride with me fully understanding that I had already failed.

It actually took off a lot of the pressure of the rest of the ride because I knew we'd be doing at least part of it again and if I messed up something else it would not be that big of a deal. Everything else went just fine. The next day (after "retraining" with my CFI) he came back and I taught him how to fill out a nav log.

I think it is important that the applicants know, going into the checkride, that the DPE must tell you the moment they decide you will not successfully pass the checkride and that the decision to continue with the rest of the ride or stop it entirely at that point must be mutual between the applicant and the DPE.

Edit to add: ...and that information should be given by the CFI prior to the ride. I am certain the DPEs explain that at the beginning of the checkride, but honestly I do not recall a single one of them mentioning it... They probably did, but nerves have a way of making one deaf. o_O
 
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