When to abandon the "go" in touch and go

[danhagan]

The thought is there is "too much" going on.

Pushing in mixture - you're OK to do a TnG.
Pushing prop forward - you're OK to do a TnG.
Adjusting trim - you're OK to do a TnG.
Retracting flaps - you're OK to do a TnG.
Carb heat off - you're OK to do a TnG.
Landing gear switch - Danger Will Robinson - you will certainly die!!!!

I don't fly a retract, but I'd think mixture and prop were already set for go around on short final. Carb heat OFF and flaps/gear after positive rate ... trim when able ... doesn't sound too bad versus hitting a deer 200 yards in front while you still had the nose up and flying speed available

 

[EdFred]

I don't fly a retract, but I'd think mixture and prop were already set for go around on short final. Carb heat OFF and flaps/gear after positive rate ... trim when able ... doesn't sound too bad versus hitting a deer 200 yards in front while you still had the nose up and flying speed available

I actually keep everything "out" then it's shove everything forward at once in case of a go around. That's my personal preference, I know others like to **** off the neighborhood by going prop full forward before reducing throttle.

 

[danhagan]

I actually keep everything "out" then it's shove everything forward at once in case of a go around.

You can use the prop as a brake when it's in ... mixture partially in at high altitude like around here keeps the motor running on short final

 

[SoonerAviator]

I’m not against T&Gs either but the gear needs to be retracted each time in the pattern for good habitat transfer.

What type of habitat does the gear normally prefer?

 

[EdFred]

You can use the prop as a brake when it's in ... mixture partially in at high altitude like around here keeps the motor running on short final

I don't use the prop as a brake. I know I can, but if I need to slow down there's other ways that don't **** off the people that already ***** about the "noisy Cessnas." Mixture comes in a little during descent, but it's not full rich/full power until it's time to pour on the coals.

 

[chemgeek]

I'm not convinced that the attached video is an applicable lesson for the hazards of a touch and go landing. More like an example of what happens when an operator is oblivious to a operational deviation and is unresponsive to apply necessary control inputs to minimize the deviation and slow/stop the aircraft. I've been with a certificated pilot with similar level of unresponsiveness and almost wound up in a ravine at KGAI before taking control from the right seat.

T&G operations need not be hazardous. A 5000 foot runway is more than enough space to conduct them safely with most light singles. If fixed gear, it's all the simpler. On runways closer to 3000 feet, I would want runway ends to be clear of obstructions. If conducting T&G ops, you need to choose your go point in advance to allow sufficient runway for a successful takeoff and obstacle clearance. at my home airport (5300 feet) the halfway point is a good spot to identify for ample runway to take off again safely. If not configured for takeoff by that point, just make it a full stop. Realistically, when practicing landings, one reaches the go point within 1000-1500 feet of the approach end, leaving gracious plenty runway for a safe takeoff. If you are rusty and a bit overwhelmed managing T&G ops, maybe a few full stop landings, or an hour with an instructor would be a better choice. Personally, I don't believe that T&G ops are particularly hazardous as long as you are reasonably competent and can respond to bright lights and loud noises, especially in a simple aircraft.

 

[Radar Contact]

I actually keep everything "out" then it's shove everything forward at once in case of a go around. That's my personal preference, I know others like to **** off the neighborhood by going prop full forward before reducing throttle.

I agree and operate the same way. Providing it’s not a go around over the threshold, I’m already flying with good speed. I don’t need everything firewalled. I set climb power which is 24-25” and 2450 rpm. At that setting I don’t need full mixtures either. In addition to the loudness, I don’t like pumping needless excessive cold fuel in hot cylinders. If needed, I can easily flat hand everything full forward in one move.

*Just my SOP, understand it’s not for everyone*

 

[Boone]

I’m not against T&Gs either but the gear needs to be retracted each time in the pattern for good habitat transfer.

I can see the thinking but in the military I did it both ways, and simply adapted to the SOP. I didn’t see either way as more/less safe. The only two gear up landings I was aware of were both on initial arrival with unusual circumstances. I prefer to leave it down and if I had my own retract, that’s how I’d fly it. In the Navy the gear is down in the pattern and stays there with the checklist re-run abeam each lap.

 

[Velocity173]

I can see the thinking but in the military I did it both ways, and simply adapted to the SOP. I didn’t see either way as more/less safe. The only two gear up landings I was aware of were both on initial arrival with unusual circumstances. I prefer to leave it down and if I had my own retract, that’s how I’d fly it. In the Navy the gear is down in the pattern and stays there with the checklist re-run abeam each lap.

Oh I leave the gear down and drag it around the pattern. I was poking fun of another topic that really shouldn’t be a big deal.
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/tngs-in-retractable-gear-aircraft.101021/page-2

 

[Tarheelpilot]

I actually keep everything "out" then it's shove everything forward at once in case of a go around. That's my personal preference, I know others like to **** off the neighborhood by going prop full forward before reducing throttle.

I push the prop in on final after it’s on the pitch stops. No change in noise profile or any changes noticeable to passengers and it’s already in if I need to go around.

 

[Boone]

Oh I leave the gear down and drag it around the pattern. I was poking fun of another topic that really shouldn’t be a big deal.
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/tngs-in-retractable-gear-aircraft.101021/page-2

Well that discussion fell apart. I’ll read it later for entertainment.

 

[sarangan]

Why are we assuming that he was attempting a touch and go? His plan might have been to do a full stop landing.

 

[Brad Z]

Curious - has the attitude that T&Gs are an unnecessary risk been around a long time? I ask because I don’t remember hearing anything about it back when I was training in the mid 90s. But then again internet arguing was still in its infancy in those days, so perhaps I simply wasn’t exposed to it.

Not saying the attitude is right or wrong - just curious if it’s always been out there.

I think it's a combination of factors:

1) Lack of internet. Learning to fly before the mid 1990s meant that your mentoring came from the your instructor, the flight school, and maybe a flying rag or two. So unless Barry schiff, your instructor, or the old geezer who owned the flight school had an issue with touch and goes, it's what you did. Nowadays a lot of wisdom gets propagated through pilot groups, you tube videos etc., often under the guise of...

2) Safety Culture. "Safe" is the most ambiguous word in aviation, because the only safe flying is not flying. Many training outfits determined that TnGs increased the likelihood of gear up mishaps, and wisely amended their training procedures to avoid them under certain conditions. In looking at the risk versus reward continuum, the risk of damaging an aircraft outweighed the benefit of time savings. Some operators figured if reconfiguration errors were a problem for complex, they must be an issue for non-complex too, because at the end of the day....

3) There is little benefit to flight schools in allowing TnGs. Using arguments related to safety and "insurance reasons", flight schools have little financial incentive to allow a practice that saves time. Shaving couple hours off of the average student training time isn't going to make a huge difference in attracting more students, but it will increase utilization of the fleet. It might not be the primary driver, but it's hard to imagine it's not a factor. Further, many of the larger schools that drive many of the industry practices tend to be geared around ab-initio programs, so it makes sense that they'd want to...

4) Avoid confusion for students moving up to larger aircraft. The rule of primacy here: if you don't want your student body attempting TnGs in Arrows and Seminoles, don't teach them TnGs in the 172. Hard to argue with this philosophy. I imagine many students from the larger 141 schools rarely did TnGs in their own training, and probably have little interest in teaching their students for the few hundred hours that they spend instructing before heading off to the regionals. I sense that there were more career instructors back in the day and this was less of an issue for them.

 

[Pi1otguy]

I'm not convinced that the attached video is an applicable lesson for the hazards of a touch and go landing.

True, but there is a discussion about committing to a go around. We've all made the same initial mistake as this guy before (hopefully corrected immediately). My issue is about when to abort the go.

I feel if you depart the runway but not the ground, you slow down. (then stop)

 

[Pi1otguy]

In looking at the risk versus reward continuum, the risk of damaging an aircraft outweighed the benefit of time savings.

Risk? I find taxing and ground handling to be hazardous.

Besides, even dirty most trainers can climb enough to a place where the pilot can clean up and return embarrassed.

 

[Matthew Rogers]

In the Cardinal RG, the gear lever is down in the middle close to where most Cessna trim wheels are located and is a large lever that you have to pull out (pretty hard) and then slide it up 3 inches. The flap lever is a small classic flap lever up on the panel. So even if you grab the gear lever, you cant just flip it up without exerting some significant effort and at least two different motions.

 

[Croomrider]

I now fly an A36 Bonanza. I rarely do touch and goes but did a few recently. If you can do a go around safely, you should be able to do a touch and go. I configure at least by final for prop and mixture full forward to be prepared for a go around so the plane should still be able to fly just as well as when the wheels touch the ground before landing. Sure, you will have to push forward until you get it trimmed, but you would do this in a go around as well. Your landing speed should not be hugely different than your take off speed. I normally land on longer runways with 1/2 flaps so this probably helps a little. I have done it to where as soon as the mains touched down, I hit the throttle and took off again. All re-configuring done after back in the air, much like a go around. I believe people should be able to do this occasionally in practice just in case they need to actually do it for a safety reason like a runway incursion or something similar.

 

[Daleandee]

Maybe they should consider putting an audible warning device in retractable gear airplanes to prevent this problem ... oh wait!!!

Yep ... it was blowing loud all the way to the pavement.

 

[wsuffa]

Stupid question time. Are touch and goes harder on complex aircraft? Such as excess wear on the gear extension motors and such?

No, not that I know of.

Despite the peanut gallery here, my choice is one of risk management. Same reason I prefer not to take intersection take offs unless there is plenty of runway margin. Others have different risk tolerances - I prefer not to take easily controllable risks.

I flew a turbocharged retract that did not have an auto-limiting wastegate. The way it was set up, it was easy enough to over boost if one wasn't careful. You couldn't just slam to the firewall and go - in an emergency I could do it but there would be a risk of engine damage if the over boost valve didn't function properly. Takeoff from stationary was easy enough to set properly - a T&G meant looking down at the MP gauge while doing all the other stuff to make sure one was puttin in the proper power setting without over boost. And that varied a bit with pressure altitude. Not impossible to do, but adding enough extra workload to increase risk. There were a couple of other quirks that could add to the workload.

Once you get into a habit, it's easier to maintain that habit across airframes than to switch up.

YMMV, and I won't judge on other folks choice. For me, it was simply risk management developed in the almost 1000 hours I had in that plane.

 

[JoshN]

Two things:
Regarding the video-I will say as a student the whole “it’s always better to go around if something is not right” is beat into your head so much that even when things get sideways (literally) on the ground, that mantra is already primed & a student might think salvation lies with power & a go-around. “Get above the taxi lights you’re about to hit” etc. But I fully agree adding power/energy to that situation is/was a mistake.

With touch & goes my primary flight school did not allow them, C172 & 4000’ runway. I find no issue when safety is applied to reduce risk but I do think there’s more people against them out there than we generally think.

 

[N1120A]

it's because everybody's favorite plane, the venerable bonanza, makes them identical looking switches hidden behind a big stupid tube in the middle of the cockpit

Uh, my switches may be in the "reverse" positions (which I actually thinks makes more sense), but one is definitely a wheel and the other a flap

 

[Doc Holliday]

Back in the old days when we trained in level B sims, before we could get the type we had to do 3 take off and landings in the actual airplane.

For the aircraft training after the sim check, we got several take off and landings before the 3 with the fed on board.

And.......”gulp....” we did touch and goes....in a B727.

Didn’t realize we were in such danger.

Sure was fun though.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Back in the old days when we trained in level B sims, before we could get the type we had to do 3 take off and landings in the actual airplane.

For the aircraft training after the sim check, we got several take off and landings before the 3 with the fed on board.

And.......”gulp....” we did touch and goes....in a B727.

Didn’t realize we were in such danger.

Sure was fun though.

While we didn't do it, we had procedures in the book for TnG's in the DC9 where I worked 5 years ago. I guess the fed's must just allow 121 carriers to do dangerous things these days...

 

[Spinka]

I've done touch and goes in everything from Cubs up to the B777. Properly briefed and practiced I've never had any problems, but yes, sometimes did a stop instead.
On a long runway with the Cub you can make 6-7 TnG's or more

 

[woodchucker]

I’m not sure the topic of T&Gs really applies to what happened in that video. That was unfortunately a very unique situation and while I would like to think I would have pulled the throttle and mixture I really can’t for sure say I would ... in that situation. It’s pretty obvious that the “pilot” became a passenger right quick.

I don’t fly complex aircraft so can’t speak of the gear issues related to T&Gs. Personally, I utilize them for efficient pattern practice. Never thought of it as a touch, roll and go but that’s how I approach them anyways. As a cfi once said: no point in going until the flaps are up. Maybe there’s an argument against that but I generally roll until the flaps are up. Only takes a few seconds.

When does a touch and go become a touch, stop and taxi back? Pilot judgement? Once, in a 172, I bailed on the go. Probably would have been fine but probably isn’t good enough for me. Too much energy and float forced that decision. Also, in that situation, it gives your brain a chance to reset. Evaluate what the heck just happened.

 

[wsuffa]

Back in the old days when we trained in level B sims, before we could get the type we had to do 3 take off and landings in the actual airplane.

For the aircraft training after the sim check, we got several take off and landings before the 3 with the fed on board.

And.......”gulp....” we did touch and goes....in a B727.

Didn’t realize we were in such danger.

Sure was fun though.

I've seen C5s doing T&G at Kelly (San Antonio). Impressive - and burned LOTS of Jet-A.

 

[SoonerAviator]

About the only thing that surprised me in the video was the fact that he left the throttle firewalled while yard-farming and heading straight toward the hangar. I mean, at some point you've got to let off the gas, right?! lol.

 

[MauleSkinner]

About the only thing that surprised me in the video was the fact that he left the throttle firewalled while yard-farming and heading straight toward the hangar. I mean, at some point you've got to let off the gas, right?! lol.

You’ve got to be able to reach the throttle to do it. This guy apparently locked up, and was so far behind the airplane he couldn’t reach it.

 

[SoonerAviator]

You’ve got to be able to reach the throttle to do it. This guy apparently locked up, and was so far behind the airplane he couldn’t reach it.

I mean, sometimes you just gotta yell "yee yee" and send it!

 

[steingar]

I think my biggest objection to doing touch & go's in a complex aircraft is doing them over and over again. Gear goes up, gear comes down. Throw in just a little distraction and gear doesn't come down when it needs to. It's happened again and again. My normal currency flight is to visit a few local airports and do landings. I could do each one as a touch and go, no worries (provided I don't bollux anything and land long). But I'd rather not do touch & go's over and over again like I did in ab initio flight training. I feel you're just asking for trouble.

 

[Domenick]

I don't do touch and goes. I thought they were stupid and dangerous when I was in training and have seen nothing to change my mind since.

Want to practice your approaches--do a low approach/go-around.
Want to practice landings--do a stop and go.

Two comments: First, I developed my own opinion on T&Gs. I did not absorb propaganda from the internet.

...What?

Second, thanks EdFred. I fixed my typo. "touch" should have been "stop". DOH!

 

[Shepherd]

Touch and go is just another maneuver you should practice every chance you get.
You never know when someone is going to pull out onto a runway in front of you.
BTW: You also need to practice moving right and left of the runway. Don't be the kid who made the perfect T&G and avoidance maneuver to the right.
Unfortunately, the plane was approaching from the right. WHACK.
His response to the FAA: "My instructor said, always move to the right of the runway."

 

[steingar]

You never know when someone is going to pull out onto a runway in front of you.

This is patent baloney. You should examine the airport and its surroundings while in the landing pattern. You should announce your intentions and position often. You should know well ahead of time if there is an aircraft that can imperil your landing. The only thing I can see really able to muck up a landing is wildlife galloping onto a runway surrounded by forest. And putting in the power may not be the best option there. It is possible you're just adding energy to an already bad situation. No trying to go around saved my bacon once.

 

[RyanB]

This is patent baloney. You should examine the airport and its surroundings while in the landing pattern. You should announce your intentions and position often. You should know well ahead of time if there is an aircraft that can imperil your landing. The only thing I can see really able to muck up a landing is wildlife galloping onto a runway surrounded by forest. And putting in the power may not be the best option there. It is possible you're just adding energy to an already bad situation. No trying to go around saved my bacon once.

That all works well as long as the ‘other guy’ does what they’re supposed to do, or what they say they’ll do.

I was on final to a Class D airport a month or two ago and was cleared to land, when a student pilot flew perpendicular across final about 1/2 mile in front of me! Tower didn’t know it was going to happen and neither did I. I’ve also had a deer strike upon landing too. Point is, be ready to go around at any point and don’t get into the mindset that other people (or animals) will do as you expect them too. @Shepherd is by all measures, correct!

 

[EdFred]

This is patent baloney. You should examine the airport and its surroundings while in the landing pattern. You should announce your intentions and position often. You should know well ahead of time if there is an aircraft that can imperil your landing. The only thing I can see really able to muck up a landing is wildlife galloping onto a runway surrounded by forest. And putting in the power may not be the best option there. It is possible you're just adding energy to an already bad situation. No trying to go around saved my bacon once.

Obviously never flown into an airport with intersecting runways where there's trees in the corners and you can't see the entire place.

 

[wsuffa]

Obviously never flown into an airport with intersecting runways where there's trees in the corners and you can't see the entire place.

Aborted landing, sure - done plenty of those. But T&G? You've already effectively landed and are spooling up for takeoff. Regardless of whether someone pulls out or lands an an intersecting runway you are still at substantial risk if someone pulls out or lands on the other runway - and if you hit them at full power (e.g. T&G), you will have extra energy that has to be dissipated in a crash.

It is useful if you can clear whatever obstacle, such as a hole in the pavement, there is on the runway in the takeoff, but most of the time you'll use more runway on a T&G than on a full stop. Even just being in ground effect won't clear most airplanes that might be incurring on the runway.

 

[Shepherd]

This is patent baloney. You should examine the airport and its surroundings while in the landing pattern. You should announce your intentions and position often. You should know well ahead of time if there is an aircraft that can imperil your landing. The only thing I can see really able to muck up a landing is wildlife galloping onto a runway surrounded by forest. And putting in the power may not be the best option there. It is possible you're just adding energy to an already bad situation. No trying to go around saved my bacon once.

Uncontrolled airports are the best, but they can also be the "Wild West" Last Friday, a guy pulled out onto the runway from the right at the second turn off, even though I had announced crosswind, downwind, base and final and he had ACKNOWLEDGED me at every message. I had just touched down when he pulled out. I powered up, pulled up, moved left and was clear of him 30 feet horizontally and 40 feet vertically when I went by. It was only his second solo in a Cub and he got flustered and completely forgot the plane had heel brakes and not toe brakes.

BTW: The same day, at 44N someone approaching from behind on the downwind leg, who was talking to me on the radio the entire time, flew right under me and cut into the pattern. He claims he didn't realize he was so close, and never saw me.
When I landed, I discovered I had no right brake at all and nothing on the left of any consequence.
Normally having no brakes is just part of the "authentic Cub experience" and is a nop. Until someone rolls out onto the runway by mistake.
The world is not perfect, people make mistakes, and no one can save your bacon except you.
Practice everything.

 

[EdFred]

Aborted landing, sure - done plenty of those. But T&G? You've already effectively landed and are spooling up for takeoff. Regardless of whether someone pulls out or lands an an intersecting runway you are still at substantial risk if someone pulls out or lands on the other runway - and if you hit them at full power (e.g. T&G), you will have extra energy that has to be dissipated in a crash.

It is useful if you can clear whatever obstacle, such as a hole in the pavement, there is on the runway in the takeoff, but most of the time you'll use more runway on a T&G than on a full stop. Even just being in ground effect won't clear most airplanes that might be incurring on the runway.

I was simply pointing out there are places where someone may pull out without you realizing/expecting/anticipating it.

 

[Larry Vrooman]

See I dislike stop and goes myself. I think the one thing that keeps a T&G reasonable is that you aren't spending runway coming to a full stop then accelerating back to flying speed. I guess if you have like 10,000' to work with... sure? And it really doesn't teach you much either. Essentially you are doing a normal landing with a normal intersection departure. All you save is a few moments of taxi back.

A T&G teaches you to control the airplane well through the reconfiguration and transition back to take off. Its a procedure you might have to do in an emergency some day and for that it has airmanship value. All IMO.

-G

A couple thoughts on this.

First, I was doing stop and go landings the other day on a 2700 ft grass strip. I was rolling out in about 500 ft with full stall landings and in about 700 ft with wheel landings. I easily had 2000-2200' of runway left for the subsequent take off. Neither end of the runway was obstructed.

At the home field it's a bit different. The length is only 1800 ft, and there are 80' tall trees near the approach end of 7 and houses on the approach end of 25. Touch and goes are not a great idea and stop and goes are a bad idea even in a Citabria. I've never seen the guy with the 180 Comanche based there do a touch and go either for obvious reasons.

In short, stop and goes don't need 10,000 ft of runway for most GA aircraft, but you do have to consider the aircraft, the wind, and the runway environment.

Second, one of the drills that we did during commercial training was to land a PA-28 full flap, touching only on the mains, then bring the flaps up and take off again, all without letting the nose wheel touch and while staying on the centerline. It requires the commercial candidate to 1) precisely control the aircraft, 2) understand what's happening and anticipate changes, and 3) perform while his/her attention is divided. It's a great drill in that context, But I would not suggest a student or a low time private pilot do it.

----

I am also not a big fan of touch and goes in a tailwheel aircraft, especially for inexperienced pilots with limited tail wheel time. It requires all the bandwidth they have and eyes firmly out of the cockpit to ensure the aircraft rolls out straight and on centerline. Cleaning up the trim and flap then has to be done by feel, and with some division of attention that may well exceed their available bandwidth.

A stop and go is much safer as the aircraft can be reconfigured for take-off with the aircraft stopped.

 

[Larry Vrooman]

The J lands at nearly full nose up trim, so going full power makes it a really hard push to keep the nose down. It's been a while since I've done it, I may play with it at altitude and give it another go. It does have electric trim, but spinning the wheel is much faster. Two or three quick flicks of the wheel gets most of the pressure off.

One of my former instructors had been a DC-6 and DC-7 pilot and worked as a check pilot in those aircraft. One of the bad habits he often observed were pilots trimming all the control pressure off on approach as it made the approach very easy to fly. However in the DC-6 and DC-7 when you added full power in that configuration - as you would in a go around - it took both pilot and co-pilot pushing forward on the yoke to keep the nose down far enough to prevent a stall.

Consequently, he'd show them the result of that practice at a safe altitude and break them of that habit.

His point in telling this to me was that it isn't a trait unique to the DC-6 and DC-7, but is also found in some GA aircraft. With that in mind how exactly do you manage a go-around from short final? Trimming all the way aft might not be in your best interests.