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Alt3000
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Tennessee
Half Fast
Touchdown! Greaser!
Goodness, NO!
As long as your previous medical was good on or after 2006 and was never revoked, you can go Basic Med. Your medical is long expired, and the FAA cannot revoke an expired medical.
The form you complete in Basic Med is only shared with your personal physician, he signs it, and you then keep it in your logbook. It doesn't go to the FAA. And any state-licensed physician can do the Basic Med exam for you, it doesn't have to be an AME. You can take the form into a doc-in-the-box clinic and have it done, much like a sports physical.
Based on what you've written, I don't see any reason for you to go through the FAA for a medical. That's only going to lead to very expensive heartache.
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Alt3000
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What about the dui, possession and me not knowing that I was supposed to report it with the student certificate?
Half Fast
Touchdown! Greaser!
Go research it yourself. Don’t take the word of SGOTI. But it seems to me that not reporting will only become an issue if you apply for a new 3rd. But I could be wrong, so do your own research.
DanStrange
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Would it not be better to ask a actual FAA lawyer vs researching what some other guy on the internet wrote?
SoCal 182 Driver
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Volzalum
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At least before completing a MedEx for a 3rd, 2nd, or 1st contact Dr. Bruce or another quality AME for a consult. If going Sport Pilot or BasicMed you don’t need an AME. You do need to evaluate whether the reporting requirements discussed above related to the possession and DUI conviction apply or not. If you ever apply for a 3rd, 2nd, or 1st, the reporting requirements 100% apply and you will probably be in the HIMS program as long as you maintain the 3rd, 2nd, or 1st class medical. For the Sport Pilot route, they probably do not apply. The BasicMed is where you as the airMan need to make your determination of applicability.
If you go for 1st, 2nd, or 3rd and are denied, BasicMed and SportPilot are no longer an option until (if) you are able to attain at least a 3rd. If I were in your position I would not ever apply for 1st, 2nd, or 3rd.
bflynn
Final Approach
The student certificate and medical was dead in July 2013. The dui conviction was in 2014. There was no failure to report. Assuming that was all, there are no legal land mines there.
Alt3000 - a direct question. Do you ever still drink or use drugs? Like even one beer at dinner?
Before going further, you need to accept that this wasn’t just innocent fun and you have a problem. If you move forward, there is no room for hiding things. I believe there is big heartache for you and others if you try to continue to drink and fly. It should go without saying that drugs are right out.
People here can tell you how to get in the air - I’m questioning if you should. If that comes across as a jerk, I don’t apologize for it. It’s because information has slowly trickled in...student certificate, dui, possession, pharmaceuticals, restricted license, interlock device? Every one of those should have been mentioned up front right after the words “I royally screwed up but I still want to fly”
You give the impression of not wanting to face the core issues and not being committed to being a sober pilot. Sure, you can be embarrassed by what you did and you should be, but you also have to own it and recognize what it means.
three paths:
1) Do not fly. You can do what you want recreationally. Boating is a nice hobby.
2) Fly as a hobby - go Basicmed. Your student certificate is good to go. You have a judgement problem, you need to quit drinking.
3) Try to fly professionally - get a consult with a HIMS AME and get ready for 5k-10k $$$$ of testing, which you might fail. Do not do a formal medical until you pass the testing and know you will pass the medical. Commit to lifetime monitoring and random pee tests that you must satisfy within a limited time. You WILL quit drinking. Decide how badly you want it.
If you do contact Dr Bruce, you need to be open and complete with him from the start. He will drop you if you omit anything.
That’s all I have, unless there is another piece of information that comes out.
Alt3000 - a direct question. Do you ever still drink or use drugs? Like even one beer at dinner?
Before going further, you need to accept that this wasn’t just innocent fun and you have a problem. If you move forward, there is no room for hiding things. I believe there is big heartache for you and others if you try to continue to drink and fly. It should go without saying that drugs are right out.
People here can tell you how to get in the air - I’m questioning if you should. If that comes across as a jerk, I don’t apologize for it. It’s because information has slowly trickled in...student certificate, dui, possession, pharmaceuticals, restricted license, interlock device? Every one of those should have been mentioned up front right after the words “I royally screwed up but I still want to fly”
You give the impression of not wanting to face the core issues and not being committed to being a sober pilot. Sure, you can be embarrassed by what you did and you should be, but you also have to own it and recognize what it means.
three paths:
1) Do not fly. You can do what you want recreationally. Boating is a nice hobby.
2) Fly as a hobby - go Basicmed. Your student certificate is good to go. You have a judgement problem, you need to quit drinking.
3) Try to fly professionally - get a consult with a HIMS AME and get ready for 5k-10k $$$$ of testing, which you might fail. Do not do a formal medical until you pass the testing and know you will pass the medical. Commit to lifetime monitoring and random pee tests that you must satisfy within a limited time. You WILL quit drinking. Decide how badly you want it.
If you do contact Dr Bruce, you need to be open and complete with him from the start. He will drop you if you omit anything.
That’s all I have, unless there is another piece of information that comes out.
Half Fast
Touchdown! Greaser!
It would be better for you to read the FAR and ACs for yourself before doing anything else.
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Alt3000
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I do not drink or use drugs. I’d love to be able to do it professionally but think the basic med to get training done would be the best route and then I could go for getting the faa medical down the line if I wanted to pursue it professionally. Will I have issues getting the student certificate since I didn’t report those incidents?
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Alt3000
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Also, when you say my student certificate is good, the other day we were applying for another one and that’s what stopped all this, so am I good to apply for another one?
ThatOtherGuy
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@Alt3000
I'll give you the obligatory statement that everyone concerned wants you to be safe and healthy before you fly. Please think long and hard about your current situation with regard to substance abuse and criminal behavior. Do not introduce aviation into your life until you've gotten those issues resolved. It'll only complicate things by introducing emotion and ego into a situation that will require clear headed difficult decisions. That said...
Lots of advice here. If you can comply with Sport Pilot and the aircraft limitations don't cause a problem, that is the safest and least onerous route. If you qualify for BasicMed that is the next least painful, but carries some future risk. The most complex and risky would be pursuing a 3rd class medical.
I won't opine as to whether you qualify for BasicMed. Those are factors you'll have to address. The limiting factor on BasicMed would be if you've had FAR (NOT DSM) defined substance dependence in the last 2 years. Realize if you do go BasicMed and at some point develop any of the other disqualifying conditions that require a 1 time special issuance you're going to have a decision. You will have a significant emotional and financial investment in aviation and you're going to have to get at least a 3rd class special issuance to continue flying. During that process you'll have to disclose the DUIs, possession, and criminal infractions. There is a high probability you'll have to go the HIMS route. In essence you'll be right back here where you started. It's a gamble about your future health putting you "back on the radar".
If you're set on getting at least a 3rd class medical, the best is to consult with a knowledgeable HIMS AME on a consultative basis. Do not fill out a MedExpress and provide the AME with the confirmation number. Once that number is entered in the system you're committed. PAY the AME to act as your personal physician, NOT to perform an FAA medical. A good HIMS AME will understand what's going on when you discuss this. As stated, Dr. Chien is a good option.
Now I'll put in my amateur $.02 and speculate. If you end up in HIMS and are diagnosed substance dependent (which I suspect is a strong possibility) you're going to be on some form of drug/alcohol testing for life. At a minimum you're going to get a substance abuse diagnosis and be on years of drug/alcohol testing and must abstain from "alcohol and all mood altering chemicals". If you're not ready to do that, don't even bother starting. HIMS is a program where you will do more damage than good if you're not absolutely committed to a lifestyle change. There are many mental health and neurological conditions that pop up alongside substance abuse/dependence (that whole "self medicating" thing). During the HIMS process you're going to be subject to some mental health professional scrutiny. Your substance abuse and criminal behavior will be part of those evaluations. If a disqualifying psychological/neurological condition is diagnosed (personality disorder comes to mind) you're going to have other/bigger problems.
Hope this helps and that you continue to work on leaving those issues behind you.
I'll give you the obligatory statement that everyone concerned wants you to be safe and healthy before you fly. Please think long and hard about your current situation with regard to substance abuse and criminal behavior. Do not introduce aviation into your life until you've gotten those issues resolved. It'll only complicate things by introducing emotion and ego into a situation that will require clear headed difficult decisions. That said...
Lots of advice here. If you can comply with Sport Pilot and the aircraft limitations don't cause a problem, that is the safest and least onerous route. If you qualify for BasicMed that is the next least painful, but carries some future risk. The most complex and risky would be pursuing a 3rd class medical.
I won't opine as to whether you qualify for BasicMed. Those are factors you'll have to address. The limiting factor on BasicMed would be if you've had FAR (NOT DSM) defined substance dependence in the last 2 years. Realize if you do go BasicMed and at some point develop any of the other disqualifying conditions that require a 1 time special issuance you're going to have a decision. You will have a significant emotional and financial investment in aviation and you're going to have to get at least a 3rd class special issuance to continue flying. During that process you'll have to disclose the DUIs, possession, and criminal infractions. There is a high probability you'll have to go the HIMS route. In essence you'll be right back here where you started. It's a gamble about your future health putting you "back on the radar".
If you're set on getting at least a 3rd class medical, the best is to consult with a knowledgeable HIMS AME on a consultative basis. Do not fill out a MedExpress and provide the AME with the confirmation number. Once that number is entered in the system you're committed. PAY the AME to act as your personal physician, NOT to perform an FAA medical. A good HIMS AME will understand what's going on when you discuss this. As stated, Dr. Chien is a good option.
Now I'll put in my amateur $.02 and speculate. If you end up in HIMS and are diagnosed substance dependent (which I suspect is a strong possibility) you're going to be on some form of drug/alcohol testing for life. At a minimum you're going to get a substance abuse diagnosis and be on years of drug/alcohol testing and must abstain from "alcohol and all mood altering chemicals". If you're not ready to do that, don't even bother starting. HIMS is a program where you will do more damage than good if you're not absolutely committed to a lifestyle change. There are many mental health and neurological conditions that pop up alongside substance abuse/dependence (that whole "self medicating" thing). During the HIMS process you're going to be subject to some mental health professional scrutiny. Your substance abuse and criminal behavior will be part of those evaluations. If a disqualifying psychological/neurological condition is diagnosed (personality disorder comes to mind) you're going to have other/bigger problems.
Hope this helps and that you continue to work on leaving those issues behind you.
A
Alt3000
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I have not been substance dependent since 2011, there has been a very long time that’s went by. Wouldn’t bother me to be on random **** test.
ThatOtherGuy
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As far the FAA (and many medical professionals) are concerned, substance dependence is a diagnosis for LIFE. Actual usage of the substance only has a bearing as to whether you're in remission from substance dependence. Good luck.
ThatOtherGuy
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The medical question is "HAVE YOU EVER IN YOUR LIFE... " not, "HAVE YOU EVER IN YOUR LIFE, EXCEPT WHERE YOU HIRED A LAWYER TO HIDE YOUR PAST INDESCRETIONS..."
If it happened you have to report it, even if it's expunged.
Expungement is a state concept, and limitations/consequences vary from state to state. Expungement doesn't matter to the FAA and yes they can still get to it. Some states have laws that specifically require disclosure of expunged records around things like application for a professional license or concealed carry permit.
Yes, there was good reason I asked about the state and whether he had any sort of administrative action prior to the actual court conviction. In his state, it does indeed look like there is no pre-conviction administrative action that would trigger a 61.15 reporting obligation. As others pointed out, his certificate had expired prior to his conviction, so he was good there.
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Alt3000
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Good to see all the opinions and advice, with that being said I’m not really sure what direction to go.
Volzalum
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Well you should be sure what direction not to go unless you want to spend more than 20k and risk never flying again. That answer is do not go for 1st, 2nd, or 3rd. The other two choices do not impact your ability to fly, they allow you to fly.
With BasicMed you will never need to do anything with the FAA unless you get one of the specific conditions described. At that point you can switch to SportPilot (which by then may have more allowances) if you so desire instead of getting the single SPecial Issuance.
Your only decisions between BasicMed and SportPilot are:
1) Do the current LSAs meet your flying need
2) Do you believe your Student Pilot license was expired related to reporting requirements for your possession charge and DUI conviction.
With BasicMed you will never need to do anything with the FAA unless you get one of the specific conditions described. At that point you can switch to SportPilot (which by then may have more allowances) if you so desire instead of getting the single SPecial Issuance.
Your only decisions between BasicMed and SportPilot are:
1) Do the current LSAs meet your flying need
2) Do you believe your Student Pilot license was expired related to reporting requirements for your possession charge and DUI conviction.
allPrimes
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I have a DUI on my record form 1999 but have been sober and active in recovery since 2001, have gone back to school and gotten a BS in Biology (with honors), an MS (honors), published several papers as senior author in peer-reviewed journals, and have had stable employment in financial and management consulting firms and now in a very technical field for a well-known digital health-care company but the FAA cares not a bit. I applied for a first-time 3rd class medical in July of this year and was denied in mid-September. I have since been given guidelines, hoops to jump through, from the FAA to secure a 3rd class medical. It's not cheap and it's not fast but will allow me to fulfill a life-long dream. I recently submitted myself to a full day of cognitive testing (not cheap!) because the FAA thinks I damaged my brain from my drinking and drug use from over two decades ago.
Were I in your shoes, I'd bypass the medical exam and go Basic Med.
Daleandee
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I've never needed a medical but could pass one as I have good health & nothing to hide from the FAA. I chose Sport Pilot because it fits what I want to do and it's hassle free. Along with being able to to do my own condition inspections on my experimental aircraft I have quite a bit of freedom over this hobby of mine. But I also understand that with such freedom comes a great responsibility to keep myself and my aircraft safe and in proper condition at all times.
Thanks for clearing this up as I was truly curious! I did look at a few web sites and was somewhat surprised to learn that expungement can be quite expensive and quite worthless depending on the state it's in and who's doing the looking. In the government work that I do, if there is something to be found ... they would find it.
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bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
NB. There is a question about convictions on the IACRA Student Pilot application.
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Volzalum
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I am not familiar enough to know the full answer, but it looks like if you get a sport pilot certificate first, you do not need a student pilot certificate to transition to a pilots license under basic med, you just need the dual instruction and to perform your solo time in a LSA.
just make sure you go ahead and get your BasicMed sooner rather than later so you have it.
just make sure you go ahead and get your BasicMed sooner rather than later so you have it.
Volzalum
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Also, looking at the FAA primer, you are allowed to use BasicMed for your student pilots license if you are otherwise qualified for BasicMed and ensure the aircraft and operations during training where you are PIC are compliant with BasicMed limitations. Here is a screenshot.
DanStrange
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If it were me, I’d spend the .5hr talking to a FAA lawyer who knows better than you or I, better nights sleep.
Half Fast
Touchdown! Greaser!
So what happens with a “yes” answer on tha IACRA application when the student is using Basic Med? Anything?
bflynn
Final Approach
Get your student pilot certification application completed. The FSIMS reference earlier answers concerns about answering yes to conviction on your student application, you are fine since the conviction was 6 years ago.
You'll need a Basicmed medical as well. This is a good start: https://www.aopa.org/advocacy/pilots/medical/basicmed
smv
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Hey Chris,
You might want to log into the FAA site and tell them to not publish your address.
https://amsrvs.registry.faa.gov/amsrvs/AddressRelease.asp
ThatOtherGuy
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You can't get a sport pilot certificate first without a student pilot certificate if you do not hold any other certificate. It's all laid out in 14 CFR 61.
Sport Pilot has solo requirements to complete training. Solo requires a student pilot certificate and instructor endorsement. The FAA isn't going to allow someone to solo an aircraft without a student certificate and the appropriate instructor endorsements. This applies to airplanes, rotorcraft, gliders, balloons etc.
Ultralights are the exception to this. You'd be perfectly legal to build/obtain an ultralight, operate under 14 CFR 103 and immediately self train toward a Darwin award.
Volzalum
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And is a Student Sport Pilot certificate the same as a Student Private Pilot Certificate? Since there is no FAA medical for Sport Pilot, what serves as the Student Certificate? My quote said you do not need a Private Pilot Student Certificate to transition from a Sports Pilot License to a Private Pilots License, not what it takes to get the Sport Pilots License.
There is only one thing called a "Student Pilot Certificate", which you would hold while training/soloing for either Sport or Private.
Once you acquire a Sport Pilot Certificate, you are a "Student Pilot" never again. With some additional training and testing and checkride, you can upgrade the Sport certificate to a Private one.
Half Fast
Touchdown! Greaser!
That's what I did, and for people who aren't planning for a career as a pilot I think it's a good way to go.
The dropout rate for pilot training is pretty high. Opting to get a SP certificate at least gets you pilot privileges even if you don't complete the extra requirements for Private. You can continue on for Private immediately, or fly for a couple of years like I did before going back. It's sort of like getting an Associate's degree en route to a Bachelor's. If you don't finish the long program, at least you still have something useful and good to show for your time, effort, and money.
ThatOtherGuy
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There is no such thing as a "Student Private Pilot Certificate", "Private Pilot Student Certificate", or "Student Sport Pilot Certificate". It's just a Student Certificate. To obtain a Private Pilot certificate through the Sport Pilot route you'd have to obtain a Student certificate, complete the Sport Pilot certificate, then upgrade the Sport Pilot certificate to a Private Pilot certificate. If you really like check rides you could inject a Recreational certificate between Sport and Private.
Private Pilots can legally operate an LSA as a Sport Pilot without any additional training. Note that just because it's legal doesn't necessarily mean it's smart.
We may be saying the same thing, but there is no route by which you can obtain a Sport Pilot or Private Pilot certificate without having held a Student Pilot certificate first.
Prior to 4/1/2016 student pilot certificates were issued by the AME during a medical. Since 4/1/2016 student pilot certificates are issued separately, have no expiration, and require the applicant to use the IACRA process. (14 CFR 61.19)
Back to the point. When you apply for any new rating or certificate you have to complete IACRA (formerly Form 8710-1) There is no way to game the system and avoid answering the question "Have you ever been convicted for violation of any Federal or State statutes relating to narcotic drugs, marijuana, or depressant or stimulant drugs or substances?" Answering this question has implications for 14 CFR 61.15.
Again, it's all very clearly laid out in 14 CFR 61.
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Half Fast
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yes, and according to 14 CFR 61.15 a conviction is grounds for:
Denial of an application for any certificate, rating, or authorization issued under this part for a period of up to 1 year after the date of final conviction
It seems to me that the OP is well beyond that 1 year mark, so he should be able to answer the IACRA form in the affirmative, get his Student certificate, then go Basic Med and never have to deal with the FAA medical folks.
ThatOtherGuy
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Agreed, with exception....
While not pertinent to the OP, 14 CFR 61.15(a)(2) also calls out "Suspension or revocation of any certificate, rating, or authorization issued under this part."
1. If he gets any of the other conditions requiring a 1 time special issuance under BasicMed he'll be worse than where he started. If he wants to keep flying legally as a Private Pilot he'll most definitely be dealing with the FAA medical folks and it won't look good. He'll have to disclose it all while obtaining the SI for the new condition. It will be very obvious that he's been avoiding the consequence of his actions, which is NOT the behavior of someone in stable recovery. As a matter of fact that's the type of things sociopaths do, and his criminal history wont help matters in that regard.
2. BasicMed calls out no substance dependence within 2 years, but the question of when substance dependence ends is very arbitrary. Note that it's FAR defined substance dependence, NOT DSM defined. The FARs are great at defining what starts substance dependence, but the closest to defining an end is "evidence of recovery adequate to the Federal Air Surgeon".
It's a gamble. If he's the risk taking type go BasicMed knowing that he could be in a much worse situation or have to walk away from a big investment. If he wants a sure thing he shouldn't proceed without a 1 time SI for substance dependence.
At this point most of us have put way more effort into helping the OP than he has, and his attitude isn't conducive to receiving assistance. It's on him to take over and do what he will with the information.
Half Fast
Touchdown! Greaser!
I don't think Basic could make things any worse. He wouldn't be gaming the system, just following the rules. Going for a 3rd now is certain to delid a worm can, while going Basic won't and might never open it. Plus if he did someday require one of the few SIs that Basic calls out, he could then decide to just let it expire and go Sport Pilot.
DanStrange
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I’d go PPL, the few SPL I have instructed have opted for the extra time to get some night and instrument training, ends up a wash with just getting a PPL.
Only reason for SPL is if medically you can’t do basic/FAA medical and get a PPL. The sport plane I used to instruct in was also more per hour then our 150.
Volzalum
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Thats a very big "If". If I were in his shoes, I would go BasicMed and never look back. Following the above advice guarantees you will be out a lot of money, have a very long wait before you are able to solo, and risk being able to fly under the other two routes (BasicMed or Sport Pilot. IMO, the above advise is very very poor advise for someone not trying to make a career out of it.
Exactly. This is what I was trying to say.