Standard left traffic

Dave S. said:
Lots of good answers.

here’s the question again...this time more succinctly.

Is left traffic the standard default regulatory VFR pattern at an ATC controlled Class D primary airport? And if so what rule defines that?

tex
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Why does there need to be one at all? If the tower is operating you can't even take off or land without a clearance. If the tower is not operating, 91.126 and 127 apply and the AFD will tell you if it's right traffic. Look at an entry for a C or D with parallel runways. If one of the is right traffic it will tell you.
 
Dave S. said:
Lots of good answers.

here’s the question again...this time more succinctly.

Is left traffic the standard default regulatory VFR pattern at an ATC controlled Class D primary airport? And if so what rule defines that?

tex
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91.129 (f) 1 has already been mentioned and clearly states left turns. .65 supports that claim.

008541C0-1487-4AA1-9388-4FF5A80CEDBE.jpeg
 
denverpilot said:
Doesn’t matter. They’re 24/7. Not going anywhere without a clearance.
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No clearance needed to fly the pattern in a class D (and I've never heard one offered but it could happen).

But as long as right turns are properly indicated, we shouldn't have to worry about

Turning left off of the right side parallel at my Class D would usually be problematic.
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Larry in TN said:
91.126(b) applies "When approaching to land at an airport without an operating control tower...".

If there is an operating control tower then 91.126(b)(1) & (2) does not apply.
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This is the right answer (but then again IANAL!). 91.129 says that in class D airspace you also have to comply with 91.126. 91.126(b) says what Larry quoted above- it explicitly says it only applies at an airport without an operating control tower in Class G airspace. 91.126(c) and (d) do not have those same restrictions, so they would apply in Class D according to 91.129.

In layman's terms for non-lawyers, the takeaway is that 91.129(a) requires you to obey 91.126(c) and (d), but not (b).
 
Timbeck2 said:
Why rely on controllers? A pilot's job is to learn everything about a flight and airports of intended landing right? It's right there in the document formerly known as the AF-D. Unless otherwise specified such as runway 23 above, make left traffic. If a tower controller wants something different, they'll tell you.
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The A/FD still exists; it's Section 2 of the Chart Supplement.
 
Lindberg said:
No clearance needed to fly the pattern in a class D (and I've never heard one offered but it could happen).
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Technically true. Which way to fly the pattern is an instruction, not a clearance.
 
midlifeflyer said:
There's always the chance of ATC Zero. That's why it's in the AFD.
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True, but hopefully nobody is stupid enough to care if it says to turn toward the parallel traffic, if any, in that rare circumstance. :)

Brain cells, engage! Haha. Superpowers. :)
 
Lindberg said:
No clearance needed to fly the pattern in a class D (and I've never heard one offered but it could happen).

But as long as right turns are properly indicated, we shouldn't have to worry about
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Good luck getting to the runway without one.

Already two people here saying they’ve had to notify moron airport “managers” for at least three airports who hadn’t put the correct info in the Supplement over the years.

(“Manager” in quotes if they’re that dumb about their own airports, and how to operate them, of course. Pretty impressive numbers really considering how few Deltas there are against the sample size of pilots here.)

Doing laps, if the place was ATC Zero, would also be a sign of not having too many brain cells firing, if one arrived from elsewhere, but idiots can always do as they please.

Not sure your point other than arguing for one idiot to follow another idiot’s lead because one didn’t publish correct information. At some point one chooses to not be stupid just because a book says you can.
 
Ok, you guys are killing me.

Great to get into the semantics of the rules, but bottom line, to get into Class D airspace with an operating tower, you need to be communicating with the tower. Part of that communication will be how to enter the pattern, or when you can take off and how you can exit the pattern. If you want to stay in the pattern you need to tell them. They will either allow you to stay in the pattern or tell you that they are too busy. I've never heard anyone insist on staying in the pattern after being told they are too busy, but I imagine that if you did argue with them they would approve a loop in the pattern, but insist on full stop landings.

If they approve staying in the pattern, every time I've done it, which is many, they tell me whether to make left turns or right turns. If they forget, I ask them. Sometimes I will get a different turn with each touch and go.

Students reading this thread, don't get confused, not doing what the tower asks you to do can get you a PD.
 
luvflyin said:
Dang. Part time Class C's are all over the place. KSPI is another. Don't even make a decent trivia question anymore. Except CMI which goes to G. All the others seem to go E
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Used to be that at towered fields the qualified weather observer necessary for the Control Zone usually were the controllers. Now that there are AWOSs and such a lot of places, the weather reporting required continues even when the tower goes home for the night.
 
flyingron said:
Used to be that at towered fields the qualified weather observer necessary for the Control Zone usually were the controllers. Now that there are AWOSs and such a lot of places, the weather reporting required continues even when the tower goes home for the night.
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Do you know what level of ASOS/AWOS is required to establish a Surface Area if no observer is there?
 
Lindberg said:
But as long as right turns are properly indicated, we shouldn't have to worry about
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding you because that is only true at airports without operating control towers. Per 14 CFR 91.129, if the airport has an operating control tower, it is always left traffic unless ATC specifies something else. This is true even if the airport displays visual marking indicating right traffic.

denverpilot said:
Already two people here saying they’ve had to notify moron airport “managers” for at least three airports who hadn’t put the correct info in the Supplement over the years.
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The second instance for me was KMQY about ten years ago. I don't think the manager is a pilot and he wasn't familiar with the details of 91.126 through 91.129. The control tower used right traffic for runways 19 and 14 for their own convenience as that kept both patterns on the same side of the tower. The airport had no pattern direction indicators but had published right traffic for 19 and 14. When the tower closed at night that created a conflict with the regulation (91.126) and the A/FD, sectional notation, and local practice.

I discussed this with the airport manager and he did not know why the right traffic was published. He did some research to see if there were other considerations for it, such as noise abatement, and found nothing. Since removing the published RP from the A/FD and Sectional was cheaper and easier than building the required visual traffic pattern indicators, he issued a NOTAM and had the A/FD and Sectional updated on the next revision cycle.

PaulS said:
Great to get into the semantics of the rules, but bottom line, to get into Class D airspace with an operating tower, you need to be communicating with the tower. Part of that communication will be how to enter the pattern, or when you can take off and how you can exit the pattern. If you want to stay in the pattern you need to tell them.
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Exactly. They will tell you want they want.

If, on the rare occasion, they don't give you all the details then it's likely that they don't care. i.e. Call inbound and all they say is, "[Callsign], Runway XX, Cleared to Land" then your only restrictions are to 'circle the airport to the left' [91.129(f)(1)] and to not make any unexpected maneuvers (AIM). If you want more detail, just request the specific pattern direction or pattern-entry that you want.

When I was actively flight instructing, 91.126 through 91.129, as well as the applicable AIM sections, was something that I emphasized as it causes so much confusion.
 
kath said:
Even a Class D has default left or right patterns. My home class D for instance (PAMR) has right traffic on 7 and 16, indicated on the chart and in the Chart Supplement, left traffic by default otherwise.

If I'm doing touch & goes on 25, left traffic is the default, but Tower always specifies which one on the first go, or whenever they want to change from left to right or back again (because sometimes they send planes onto right traffic instead). And if they don't specify, I will always ask, and they will (gladly, it seems) clarify.
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You ever asked the tower for "the works" up there at Merrill?
 
PaulS said:
Great to get into the semantics of the rules, but bottom line, to get into Class D airspace with an operating tower, you need to be communicating with the tower. Part of that communication will be how to enter the pattern, or when you can take off and how you can exit the pattern.
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Paul, It isn't semantics. No clearance is required to go anywhere or do anything in Class D airspace other than land or takeoff. And the only requirement for communication is that the controller say your callsign. It may or may not include those other things.
 
Lindberg said:
Paul, It isn't semantics. No clearance is required to go anywhere or do anything in Class D airspace other than land or takeoff. And the only requirement for communication is that the controller say your callsign. It may or may not include those other things.
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So if the controller says "N12345 remain clear of the Class Delta," you can still barge in because that's "two way communication" ?

And before it's said that "never happens at Class D," come do Operation Good Cheer sometime at PTK - not this year though, cancelled.
 
I'd be the last one to complain about semantics. But at the same time, while knowledge of the details has value, wisdom is knowing when it really matters.
 
EdFred said:
So if the controller says "N12345 remain clear of the Class Delta," you can still barge in because that's "two way communication" ?

And before it's said that "never happens at Class D," come do Operation Good Cheer sometime at PTK - not this year though, cancelled.
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It has happened where I fly too, but as you know, clearances and instructions are two different things. He didn't say that you can disobey instructions (short of an emergency).
 
luvflyin said:
C'mon now, you can't leave it at just that. She may not get back to you for awhile. What's "the works"
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When I was a student at UAA on Merrill Field I would often be told to request "the works", especially when solo. Tower would call a random go around, switch runways after a T&G (2 runways roughly 90 degrees off), reverse landing direction, change pattern direction, call your turns, give you a short approach and basically anything else that made their time enjoyable. One day I was being worked really hard and was feeling worn out because they would do this while sequencing you with other traffic so I said something like "take it easy on me, student pilot". The response from the young lady in the tower was "they won't let me, student controller".
 
Dave S. said:
Stated a different way... do pilots always assume left traffic in a Class D as the basic standard pattern unless ATC gives instructions to the contrary. Please give the reason
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Ravioli said:
@Timbeck2 and @Radar Contact can provide more details, since they are controllers.
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I try not to make assumptions when flying or controlling. I’m usually told how to enter the pattern from ATC. If I wasn’t for some reason, I’d ask.

As for while doing ATC, I like to emphasize the control part. I don’t like to just hope we are on the same page. Make left traffic vs closed traffic approved. Turn left heading 360 vs fly heading 360. Etc.

Just my $0.02
 
Lindberg said:
That's not what I wrote. Is that what you read?
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This is what I read. Keyword: Only

Lindberg said:
No clearance is required to go anywhere or do anything in Class D airspace other than land or takeoff. And the only requirement for communication is that the controller say your callsign.
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If it's the ONLY requirement (your words) ....he did just say your call sign....

I mean if you want to be pedantic in this thread, we can be pedantic in this thread.
 
luvflyin said:
Do you know what level of ASOS/AWOS is required to establish a Surface Area if no observer is there?
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To have a surface area of contolled airspace designated for an airport you need three things:

1. Qualified weather observation (either a human or AWOS-like thing).
2. An instrument approach.
3. Communications means.

So if you have no human (either the tower operator or an airline employee qualified to do so) or an automated weather, you can't have an active AFKA control zone.
 
flyingron said:
To have a surface area of contolled airspace designated for an airport you need three things:

1. Qualified weather observation (either a human or AWOS-like thing).
2. An instrument approach.
3. Communications means.

So if you have no human (either the tower operator or an airline employee qualified to do so) or an automated weather, you can't have an active AFKA control zone.
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Yeah. Thing that got me wondering was KCMI. AF/D says it goes G at night. More I thought about it I realized that just has to be a misprint and it has to go E like all the other part time C's. It has ASOS so for I while there I was wondering if it was a cheapo ASOS that didn't meet some requirement or even with ASOS a human was need for augmentation.
 
Radar Contact said:
I try not to make assumptions when flying or controlling. I’m usually told how to enter the pattern from ATC. If I wasn’t for some reason, I’d ask.

As for while doing ATC, I like to emphasize the control part. I don’t like to just hope we are on the same page. Make left traffic vs closed traffic approved. Turn left heading 360 vs fly heading 360. Etc.

Just my $0.02
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Yeah. I can't remember the last time I heard a controller leave 'left' out. I used to do it a lot at Santa Barbara KSBA, but only when misunderstanding was just not an issue. It would be "runway 15L, report downwind" with check in's from the east. Saving a few words could make difference, the frequency could get very congested there. Always said left for the pattern rats though when giving closed traffic.
 
red4golf said:
You ever asked the tower for "the works" up there at Merrill?
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No... usually when I’m out at Merrill it’s too crowded.

Although I did once have Tower report the wind as “every which way at ten gusting fifteen,” and had to switch runways several times...
 
It’s always left unless it says other wise.

Unless ATC tells you otherwise

If you were in L or R closed traffic figure on staying that way unless told otherwise.

Common sense trumps all, if someone gives you left traffic and there is a close parallel runway that’s active to the left, I would not turn into traffic and I would quarry ATC.
 
DanStrange said:
It’s always left unless it says other wise.

Unless ATC tells you otherwise

If you were in L or R closed traffic figure on staying that way unless told otherwise.

Common sense trumps all, if someone gives you left traffic and there is a close parallel runway that’s active to the left, I would not turn into traffic and I would quarry ATC.
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That sounds like it could be a rocky flight.
 
1. Yes establishing communications is required to enter into Class D, C, B (for that matter, step one of two steps, the second being the actual clearance). But if the controller responds with your call sign and instructs you to remain clear of the Class D or C or B you darn sure better comply.

2. I think we agree that 91.126b1 is not included as one of the items that 91.129 requires because 91.126b1 is qualified as specific to Class G airports without control towers, so by definition it can’t apply to a Class D. The use of flaps rule would be one rule that does apply for example.

so the question is, what rule DOES compel pilots to assume a standard left pattern at an ATC controlled airport without any right traffic indicators to the contrary?

91.129f has a paragraph title of Approaches. Then goes on to nclude a statement about conducting circling approaches as an EXCEPTION to whatever 129f is talking about. The context seems to be which way to circle the airport during approaches. This is further reinforced by us of the term “arrivals” farther up the section.

in fact the best argument I have seen so far in this thread is the 7110.65 rule that relieves controllers from stipulating an instruction for left traffic if left traffic is what the controller wants. But, even though this seems to indicate that the FAA seems to think that left traffic is the default pattern at a ATC controlled Class D airport, this exemption in the .65 is not the originating authority...some other rule is. AND, 91.129f seems to be the best candidate so far albeit far from definitive in my opinion.

Tex
 
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EdFred said:
If it's the ONLY requirement (your words) ....he did just say your call sign....

I mean if you want to be pedantic in this thread, we can be pedantic in this thread.
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That's cool, but those aren't my words. You picked individual words out of what I wrote and ignored the rest.
 
DanStrange said:
It’s always left unless it says other wise.

Unless ATC tells you otherwise

If you were in L or R closed traffic figure on staying that way unless told otherwise.

Common sense trumps all, if someone gives you left traffic and there is a close parallel runway that’s active to the left, I would not turn into traffic and I would quarry ATC.
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Sometimes I’d like to throw them in a quarry to.
 
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red4golf said:
When I was a student at UAA on Merrill Field I would often be told to request "the works", especially when solo. Tower would call a random go around, switch runways after a T&G (2 runways roughly 90 degrees off), reverse landing direction, change pattern direction, call your turns, give you a short approach and basically anything else that made their time enjoyable. One day I was being worked really hard and was feeling worn out because they would do this while sequencing you with other traffic so I said something like "take it easy on me, student pilot". The response from the young lady in the tower was "they won't let me, student controller".
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Ah. There’s a an airport in Texas, Dallas area I think, where folks here talk about a thing like that the CFI’s have got going on with Tower.
 
DanStrange said:
It’s always left unless it says other wise.

Unless ATC tells you otherwise
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it must be....because you simply say so. Why is it ALWAYS. The point of the original question is to find out why pilots believe it is so. What is the justification for their belief. I’m not saying whether it’s right or wrong. But why do we do what we do? Is it because our instructor told us so? Or another pilot in a forum?

is 91.129f the rule that defines it or not?

Tex
 
Dave S. said:
it must be....because you simply say so. Why is it ALWAYS. The point of the original question is to find out why pilots believe it is so. What is the justification for their belief. I’m not saying whether it’s right or wrong. But why do we do what we do? Is it because our instructor told us so? Or another pilot in a forum?

is 91.129f the rule that defines it or not?

Tex
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“...we...”? You make it sound like everyone is the same. Why anyone believes it or not is an individual thing. Could be because their instructor said so. And the instructor may or may not have told them why. May have showed them some things in documents that regulate flying. May have been another pilot in a forum, ditto above. Or maybe they just studied in their own. We’ve dissected FAR 91 pretty thoroughly. If you’re looking for more documentation, read the AIM. 4-3-2 b.

b. When necessary, the tower controller will issue
clearances or other information for aircraft to
generally follow the desired flight path (traffic
patterns) when flying in Class B, Class C, and Class D
surface areas and the proper taxi routes when
operating on the ground. If not otherwise authorized
or directed by the tower, pilots of fixed−wing aircraft
approaching to land must circle the airport to the left.
Pilots approaching to land in a helicopter must avoid
the flow of fixed−wing traffic. However, in all
instances, an appropriate clearance must be received
from the tower before landing.
 
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