Right, 500' distant...
Low Flight - Correct me if I'm wrong.
- Thread starter kyleb
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Right, 500' distant...
Yeah, you let me know how that works out for you in an enforcement action.
And in this case, he wasn't 500' from the shore anyhow.
Salty
Touchdown! Greaser!
Prove it.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Not entirely possible from pictures, but from video it's easy enough. Simply calculate the radial velocity based on the observers viewpoint, and then plug in the numbers for cruise/max speed on the aircraft, and it will tell you how far he was from the observer. That's the furthest he could have been from shore. Next question?
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I'm not the FAA and the FAA doesn't need to "prove" anything in enforcement actions. They operate outside the Constitution.
Salty
Touchdown! Greaser!
So, you're saying the FAA has a history of taking enforcement actions on events they have no proof for? Prove it.
Shepherd
Final Approach
So when do the bizarre scenario arguments start in this thread?
"You know, this one time, in band camp........."
"You know, this one time, in band camp........."
Shepherd
Final Approach
flyingron is correct. As an agency, the FAA is not necessarily bound by existing laws.
Most of us have seen the FAA flip-flop on it's own regulations in the past.
SoonerAviator
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Lol, well we're only 48 posts in, I'm pretty sure bizarre arguments have to wait until at least 50 posts have been made (probably an obscure PoA forum rule).
bflynn
Final Approach
Source? Not doubting it, but I had no idea of where the definition of "open water" is written down and I'd like to see what else I'm missing in the same section.
Shepherd
Final Approach
50!!!!
So, I was 4 miles off shore inverted at 50 feet when a guy on a jet ski passed under me. Do I have to report myself?
So, I was 4 miles off shore inverted at 50 feet when a guy on a jet ski passed under me. Do I have to report myself?
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Shepherd
Final Approach
Two years ago someone reported me for flying low over a reservoir in upstate NY.
I got a phone call, and claimed "open water", they watched the video and said I was good to go.
So we now know at least one reservoir is open water.
I got a phone call, and claimed "open water", they watched the video and said I was good to go.
So we now know at least one reservoir is open water.
Half Fast
Touchdown! Greaser!
Depends. Was the jet ski jumping waves and airborne at the instant he passed you? Perhaps you two were simply flying in formation.
kyleb
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Drake the Outlaw
A picture corroborated by a first person witness who happens to be a 30 year pilot and was standing 100’ away is more evidence than “The Man” needs.
Salty
Touchdown! Greaser!
I doubt it. 30 year pilot doesn't have magic abilities to measure distance by eye. Show me a case where the Faa actually enforced something against someone based on the word of a random "pilot" and a picture that frankly proves absolutely nothing. And no, asking someone to come in and talk to them is not enforcement.
Based on my 2 minutes with gimp, I'd say your picture is evidence in his favor anyway.
SoonerAviator
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African or European jet ski?
EdFred
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Shepherd
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I don't want to answer that. I will either be labeled a racist or white supremacist.
smv
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Jet skis do not migrate
SoonerAviator
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Lol, are we presuming race according to country of origin?
I call BS. Ever been on a big lake watching big cruisers go by? Those jet skis will migrate from one cruiser to the next to jump their wake!
Half Fast
Touchdown! Greaser!
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Bombardier hates you. Though technically those are Sea-Doos.
The dictionary definition is as I stated.
Further both FAA enforcement actions, NTSB appeals, and Chief Counsel decisions are even less kind than I am. They say "open water" is irrelevant if you're near people on the beach. They are open air assemblies.:
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...010/Simmons - (2010) Legal Interpretation.pdf
flyingcheesehead
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Um... The tail height of the Hawk is 4' 6". If anything, he's closer than the shoreline based on your pic.
Dan Thomas
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Isn't that the shadow of the airplane on the sand and surf near the person in the bright blue top?
bflynn
Final Approach
Interesting that the letter uses the phrase “open water near the beach”, confirming that open water is not solely far offshore.
The letter also confirms that determinations are made on a case by case basis.
Going back to the original picture again, I think he was clearly flying too low and he was not over the water as his shadow is over the surf. But we must defer to the FAA to determine what level of infraction was committed.
kyleb
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Drake the Outlaw
Yep. That's his shadow. In the first post in the thread, I noted that he was right on the surf/sand line all the way down the beach.
He's a wingspan or three away from the people in the picture.
Shepherd
Final Approach
How is this for low?
Don't bother. Within minutes of posting it someone reported me.
FAA says "No violation."
It's recorded in 4K. Sometimes Youtube plays it back at much lower quality. Don't know why.
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Croomrider
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Mike
I've flown down a beach at 50 feet before in an RV, but there were no people boats or structures within 500 feet!
Years ago I was flying (legally!) along a Long Island beach feet high and more than 500 feet offshore. A lifguard on the beach reported me to the FAA and swore I was ten feet directly over the people on the beach. Even back then I wasn't that stupid. He lied. Guess who the FAA believed?
smv
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donjohnston
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No idea. Who?
Shepherd
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smv
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From FAA/FS-I-8700-1 "Information for Banner Towing Operations":
"Minimum Altitudes. Operations around congested areas or around open-air assemblies of persons must be executed in accordance with a planned course of action with emphasis on selection and availability of emergency landing areas. Due to the area around which such operations are usually conducted (e.g., congested areas or open-air assemblies of persons), the pilot will exercise special precautions to ensure compliance with § 91.119(a), (b), and (c). Operations around congested areas/open-air assemblies must be no lower than 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle. Operations should never be conducted directly over an open-air assembly of persons at any altitude. The operator should take into account the lowest point on the trailing banner when determining a helicopter’s correct flight altitude. For safety purposes, the altitude should be sufficient for the aircraft and trailing banner to comply with § 91.119(b) and (c). Some banners may extend more than 250 feet behind the aircraft. Section 91.119(d) is not applicable to helicopters under the terms of the CoW.
"Note: Due to TFR requirements, altitude may be limited to no less than 3,000 feet above ground level (AGL) and horizontal distances limited to no closer than 3 nautical miles."