TBD down in western NY

FlightAware (N965DM) data looks normal speed was a bit erratic but probably bad data, straight and level at FL280 then just drops from the sky. Such sad news..
 
Did anyone else have trouble understanding buffalo approach? Had absolutely nothing to do with this just my first observation listening to it. What's weird is to be have a problem then come back on radio and say you're fine. Then gone again.
 
Racerx said:
Did anyone else have trouble understanding buffalo approach? Had absolutely nothing to do with this just my first observation listening to it. What's weird is to be have a problem then come back on radio and say you're fine. Then gone again.
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I was thinking that. So on the radar thing that VAS aviation does. I noticed the label for plane had red radio failure tag- is that generated by ATC labeling them as having trouble or is that come from the plane via squak code for com failure. Or both???
 
Can’t help but think Hypoxia. He thought everything was fine but wasn’t. I hate speculating but it’s just so odd to have that communication above 10K and then everything just goes to hell after that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
At the risk of the ‘Monday Morning QB’ label, I’ve had a thought over the years. This was a relatively short flight, <2 hours, close to 1.5. There is the trade off as one ventures to the higher level ‘O2 required’ levels, with the time of useful consciousness, less. I realize things can happen in any phase of flight, mostly referencing the casual flyer with a pressurized or even a portable O2 system. I’m not advocating flying the 737 at 12,000’.

Basically, doing the risk/reward comparison from the mid to upper teens to the upper 20’s with a flight. Another is that Cirrus flight at FL 250 out of Gaylord, MI, years ago. He may of been drawn by a great tailwind.

One can still have hypoxia issues at 17k, but the edges are much softer. I don’t know the warning systems provided on this plane, or the procedures & methods to monitor during the flight. Of course to early to know for sure the cause of this accident.

I acknowledge higher terrain out West, one can also fly a bit longer to go around much of it.
 
Volzalum said:
If the engine quits at FL280, what happens to the pressurization?
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I would imagine, in a free-turbine engine, that it would quickly drop. But so would the plane, and he didn't indicate that the airplane had no power.
 
Sure didn't sound like hypoxia, his speech was perfect.
 
sourdough44 said:
At the risk of the ‘Monday Morning QB’ label, I’ve had a thought over the years. This was a relatively short flight, <2 hours, close to 1.5. There is the trade off as one ventures to the higher level ‘O2 required’ levels, with the time of useful consciousness, less. I realize things can happen in any phase of flight, mostly referencing the casual flyer with a pressurized or even a portable O2 system. I’m not advocating flying the 737 at 12,000’.

Basically, doing the risk/reward comparison from the mid to upper teens to the upper 20’s with a flight. Another is that Cirrus flight at FL 250 out of Gaylord, MI, years ago. He may of been drawn by a great tailwind.

One can still have hypoxia issues at 17k, but the edges are much softer. I don’t know the warning systems provided on this plane, or the procedures & methods to monitor during the flight. Of course to early to know for sure the cause of this accident.

I acknowledge higher terrain out West, one can also fly a bit longer to go around much of it.
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Pretty sure the TBM needs to get up there to have any kind of range. For pressurized aircraft this shouldn't be an issue. I remember the guy and his wife off Florida in a TBM IIRC he thought the pressurization failure alert was a faulty instrument and paid the ultimate price. Seems to me even if it is a faulty instrument, SOP should be to get on the oxygen and get down lower, then figure it out.

Easy to armchair quarterback from the armchair, but I hope I have the intelligence to follow my own advice if I find myself in a similar situation.
 
I'm not sure hypoxia was the culprit in this case, but since it came up, it can happen to anyone. Remember the recording of the Flying Tigers crew? And that was in a 747..

I think doing single pilot stuff in the flight levels requires very specific training and discipline and an additional risk reward trade-off

17K was high enough for me in the SR22T. Not pressurized (obviously) and you are already on oxygen but you're adding one more item to a list of things that can potentially fail and ultimately kill you

In a 172 at 6K that list is super short
In a turbocharged plane, either pressurized or on cannula, you've now added several items that can break
 
TBM Socata and P&W will be receiving a lawsuit very soon. Regardless of cause.
 
What, no jokes about ambulance chasers? My faith in the PoA crowd is starting to fade...

:D
 
I was 40 miles south en route to Boston about an hour before the accident and encountered rapid clear ice accumulation between 7 and 11,000 feet. Being behind the aircraft + an icing encounter (and potentially forgetting the de-ice) was the first thing that came to mind reading the analysis.
 
Cervieres said:
I was 40 miles south en route to Boston about an hour before the accident and encountered rapid clear ice accumulation between 7 and 11,000 feet. Being behind the aircraft + an icing encounter (and potentially forgetting the de-ice) was the first thing that came to mind reading the analysis.
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If you are flying that beautiful DA40 in the picture, clear ice (likely OAT 0- minus 10C) accumulating on the DA40, would very unlikely stick to a plane as big and fast as the TBM, especially since his TAS as he passed that altitude band would create a total air temperature on the wing well above freezing. DA40's sure can collect some ice though. DAMHIK :)
 
luvflyin said:
Hey. While I got ya here. Can you go to that Southwest stew broke her back thread and answer my question.
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Sheesh, you didn't even say please!
 
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Sluggo63 said:
Thanks. Yeah, I guess that would have been a better clarifier.
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Ah, no worries. It was right there on the landing page for the docket if anyone had bothered to look :D

Nauga,
 
As someone above posted, everything was good until it wasn't. The aircraft was found in a 15' deep crater and highly fragmented.

From the radar plot analysis contained in the docket:

The airplane appears to be cruising normally at 28,000 ft. and about 190 KCAS until about 11:41:17, when the pitch slowly decreases, over about 30 seconds, to about -10°, and the rate of descent increases to between 4,000 and 5,000 feet/minute. The airplane starts to pitch down and descend about 15 seconds after the pilot acknowledges an ATC instruction to descend and maintain 8,000 ft., and so this initial descent is likely intentional. The airplane stays on track during this descent until about 11:43:31, at which time the altitude has decreased to about 19,300 ft., and the airspeed has increased to about 270 KCAS (the maximum operating speed, per the Pilot’s Operating Handbook (Reference 2)).

At this point, the airplane rolls right suddenly to about 35°, and the pitch angle starts steadily decreasing to about -47° while the roll angle also increases to almost 90°. The airspeed and rate of descent increase accordingly, with the airspeed reaching 350 KCAS and the rate of descent peaking at 28,400 ft./min. at 11:44:13 before decreasing to 6,800 ft./min. at the end of the data. These motions describe a spiral dive; the computed normal load factor increases to about 3.8 G’s at 11:44:17, though the calculations become somewhat unreliable at this point because of the very dynamic situation and the sparse radar points available to define the path of the airplane in the dive. But it seems clear that the load factor is increasing to high levels while the airspeed is increasing far above the maximum operating speed, a combination that can overstress the airplane.
 
Probably not relevant but interesting - Toxicology report showed he had alcohol in his blood (although a small amount 22mg/dL) which I believe is 0.02 BAC. Since the accident occurred close to noon he was either hammered the night before or drank alcohol that morning right? Again, not saying this had anything to do with the accident just pointing it out.
 
srp_4737 said:
Probably not relevant but interesting - Toxicology report showed he had alcohol in his blood (although a small amount 22mg/dL) which I believe is 0.02 BAC. Since the accident occurred close to noon he was either hammered the night before or drank alcohol that morning right? Again, not saying this had anything to do with the accident just pointing it out.
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“Owing to extensive abdominal trauma in aviation disasters (e.g. rupture of the viscera), interpretation of BAC in autopsy specimens from the pilot and crew is highly contentious and great care is needed to reach valid conclusions.”

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16782292/
 
3393RP said:
As someone above posted, everything was good until it wasn't. The aircraft was found in a 15' deep crater and highly fragmented.

From the radar plot analysis contained in the docket:

The airplane appears to be cruising normally at 28,000 ft. and about 190 KCAS until about 11:41:17, when the pitch slowly decreases, over about 30 seconds, to about -10°, and the rate of descent increases to between 4,000 and 5,000 feet/minute. The airplane starts to pitch down and descend about 15 seconds after the pilot acknowledges an ATC instruction to descend and maintain 8,000 ft., and so this initial descent is likely intentional. The airplane stays on track during this descent until about 11:43:31, at which time the altitude has decreased to about 19,300 ft., and the airspeed has increased to about 270 KCAS (the maximum operating speed, per the Pilot’s Operating Handbook (Reference 2)).

At this point, the airplane rolls right suddenly to about 35°, and the pitch angle starts steadily decreasing to about -47° while the roll angle also increases to almost 90°. The airspeed and rate of descent increase accordingly, with the airspeed reaching 350 KCAS and the rate of descent peaking at 28,400 ft./min. at 11:44:13 before decreasing to 6,800 ft./min. at the end of the data. These motions describe a spiral dive; the computed normal load factor increases to about 3.8 G’s at 11:44:17, though the calculations become somewhat unreliable at this point because of the very dynamic situation and the sparse radar points available to define the path of the airplane in the dive. But it seems clear that the load factor is increasing to high levels while the airspeed is increasing far above the maximum operating speed, a combination that can overstress the airplane.
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They didn't put a probable cause on this one, but it kind of sounds like a medical event or depressurization based on what I've seen so far. Garbled speech, descent initiated, and that sudden roll could be the pilot slumping onto the yoke, or a control surface flying off though that shouldn't happen quite so soon after hitting Vmo.
 
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