First of 4 Pilots indicted for lying on Medical is Sentenced.

Kristin said:
Orenthal James Simpson. Poster child! Many others over the history of mankind.
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So where was his order of “wrongful acquitted” entered into a court order?

I think you are confusing “guilty in the court of public opinion” with actual legal preceding.

BTW, I’m no fan of Simpson, but I do accept the outcome of his trial and the legal system.
 
Doc Holliday said:
So where was his order of “wrongful acquitted” entered into a court order?

I think you are confusing “guilty in the court of public opinion” with actual legal preceding.

BTW, I’m no fan of Simpson, but I do accept the outcome of his trial and the legal system.
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So where do you see a law that pronounces someone wrongful convicted? Someone may subsequently get the charges dismissed, or a new trial, etc. But "wrongful conviction" is not specifically enshrined in the law.

I think you are confusing the legal system with actual culpability. No legal system is perfect. Yes, Simpson was legally acquitted. That is not the same as his not being guilty in actual fact.
 
Kristin said:
So where do you see a law that pronounces someone wrongful convicted? Someone may subsequently get the charges dismissed, or a new trial, etc. But "wrongful conviction" is not specifically enshrined in the law.

I think you are confusing the legal system with actual culpability. No legal system is perfect. Yes, Simpson was legally acquitted. That is not the same as his not being guilty in actual fact.
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Opinion. And you are entitled to yours as I am of mine.

But your opinion is not law, nor does it suffice in any legal definition.

And “wrongful acquittal” is not enshrined into the law either.
 
Doc Holliday said:
Opinion. And you are entitled to yours as I am of mine.

But your opinion is not law, nor does it suffice in any legal definition.

And “wrongful acquittal” is not enshrined into the law either.
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I never said it was a legal construct, so you have been essentially arguing with your self all this time. Carry on!
 
So basically the pilot was just forced into early retirement after lying on his medical form for a long time. He probably would’ve done the same thing again because he definitely came out ahead. He basically had a full career as an airline pilot and the lying only gave him a 2 year probation.
 
Doc Holliday said:
Opinion. And you are entitled to yours as I am of mine.

But your opinion is not law, nor does it suffice in any legal definition.

And “wrongful acquittal” is not enshrined into the law either.
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And law does not always have much connection with reality.
 
jstone said:
So basically the pilot was just forced into early retirement after lying on his medical form for a long time. He probably would’ve done the same thing again because he definitely came out ahead. He basically had a full career as an airline pilot and the lying only gave him a 2 year probation.
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Oh 100%. He won. Nixing his VA benefits otoh, that's where it really would have hurt him, and what he was really concerned with, when allocuting early to the FAA infractions. Starving regional a-word pork cycle fodder may envy the position, but that job ain't worth giving up the VA grift, especially as you approach your 60s. He knew what side his bread was buttered on.

Removing his legal ability to fly going forward was a zero opportunity cost proposition. Hell, I know young guys who retire in their 40s and never touch an airplane for the rest of their lives. Flying is just a shtick for a lot of these folks, especially when the mil funded your training and qualifying experience. Go mess with their 50+1% VA rating top off on the AD pension (the trigger for no offset against your DOD pension) though, and watch the piggies squeal. This was really very well calculated math on the part of the accused. They went after the wrong thing here. I even know convicted commissioned officers that have pleaded for jail time in lieu of retirement benefit curtailment. Hell, a six month SBN deployment is harder than 12 months (6 with good behavior) in club Fed, and you're technically a free man in the former. It's always the money Lebowski, always has been.
 
bbchien said:
Chrisman is a liar and got what was coming.
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Yeah, equal application of justice ... if only we weren't in a two tier system:(

bbchien said:
Florian, Pres. “O” combined the databases. Big brother has thus become legally competent to catch these guys....
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Gee, if we could get the Big O BACK, maybe he can fix the FBI, DOJ, NSA and CIA databases:confused:
 
Doc Holliday said:
Opinion. And you are entitled to yours as I am of mine.

But your opinion is not law, nor does it suffice in any legal definition.

And “wrongful acquittal” is not enshrined into the law either.
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The justice system is just a framework to assist in making a best guess at guilt. It cannot actually determine guilt. As you say, the judgments are firm and final (except for appeals), but it is often inaccurate. it has nothing to do with public opinion, very often a judgment must be made that is obviously wrong, but the rules must be followed to keep order. If anything, the court of public opinion is why the judicial system got OJ and Blake wrong.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Oh 100%. He won. Nixing his VA benefits otoh, that's where it really would have hurt him, and what he was really concerned with, when allocuting early to the FAA infractions.
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Technically the VA could re-examine him and remove the rating. I don't believe they do that often, mostly to avoid the wrath of the various advocacy groups.
 
weilke said:
Technically the VA could re-examine him and remove the rating. I don't believe they do that often, mostly to avoid the wrath of the various advocacy groups.
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I thought they did that every 4-5 years. But I’ve also never heard of anyone having a rating removed.
 
Doc Holliday said:
So in our judicial system, do we have “guilty”, “not guilty” and “he got off”? o_O
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What we do have is guilty in a criminal matter and lost in a civil proceeding. OJ and Blake both lost the latter due to the different standards of evidence used - beyond a reasonable doubt versus preponderance of the evidence.
 
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Well, we now know what really happens if you do not disclose medical history on your medical application....pretty much nothing.
 
If I was dictator, the punishment for double-dipping would be to put the convicted to a state of "zero dip" -- no pilot certificates (revoked, not suspended, do not pass go), VA cash clawed back, a fine in the amount of their total ill-gotten pilot earnings.

I agree that "VA Disability" seems like yet another governmental santa claus situation, over-used, abused, under-administered -- and has nothing to do with medical fitness to hold a first class medical. Fine. Change the medical regs then. Or carve out an FAA loophole that allows a diagnosis of "flight compatible PTSD -- dude can fly a plane fine, but he wets his bed at night now and he needs a perpetually replenishing loaf of taxpayer cash to make it all better" and whatever test standards that may support. Until then, these dudes should burn. And I have no confidence that they will.
 
Morgan3820 said:
More to the core of it. What else would he lie about that would get someone hurt.
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That is a good question. I wonder what data there is in his case or more generally which would associate a willingness to lie on such a form with other dangerous piloting?

Personally I really dislike people who don’t tell the truth and am frankly probably too trusting. But I do wonder how strong the association in a case like this is.
 
I predict that's a phrase that is going to go away in the future. What does "moral" mean anymore and doesn't it vary based on who is judging it?
 
kgruber said:
To be an ATP you need to have good "moral" character. The liers don't.
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A wonderfully broad and somewhat vague phrase. I agree it should be eliminated from government regulations, which need to be objectively administered according to the law. This is another example of what I commented on originally, which is the wide net the FAA can cast with their aeromedical regulations.
 
We need morality which is what defines our morals. The defining answer is where you get your moral compass (directives) from. Obviously some have much higher standards than others.

Laws are for those that are lawful and obedient. You cannot legislate morality but you can teach it, live it, and learn it.
 
It all depends on who’s enforcing “good moral character.” If it’s the FAA, I think violation of the law would be a no brainer. If it’s an employer, forget lying on a federal application, you can get fired just for questionable social media posts. All in the eye of the beholder.
 
Velocity173 said:
It all depends on who’s enforcing “good moral character.” If it’s the FAA, I think violation of the law would be a no brainer.
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People with reported felony convictions, even felony drug convictions, have received ATPs.
 
schmookeeg said:
If I was dictator, the punishment for double-dipping would be to put the convicted to a state of "zero dip" -- no pilot certificates (revoked, not suspended, do not pass go), VA cash clawed back, a fine in the amount of their total ill-gotten pilot earnings.

I agree that "VA Disability" seems like yet another governmental santa claus situation, over-used, abused, under-administered -- and has nothing to do with medical fitness to hold a first class medical. Fine. Change the medical regs then. Or carve out an FAA loophole that allows a diagnosis of "flight compatible PTSD -- dude can fly a plane fine, but he wets his bed at night now and he needs a perpetually replenishing loaf of taxpayer cash to make it all better" and whatever test standards that may support. Until then, these dudes should burn. And I have no confidence that they will.
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As long as you report it the the FAA, it’s very perfectly legal to receive VA compensation and have a FAA medical so long as the items you’re receiving VA compensation for isn’t disqualifying for the FAA medical. It’s not one or the other situation. You can have both.

The FAA form is also a bit misleading. The question on the form states have you ever received “medical disability”.

The VA term is “VA compensation”. So if I am receiving VA compensation for scars that I received on active duty, which are completely unrelated to a FAA medical, then why would I call this medical disability? The thought was medical disability was related to a military medical retirement or social security disability benefits, not the VA.

I believe VA benefits were later added to the definition of “Medical Disability” on the FAA form. I’m not sure it was always there. When the FAA went after this guy, the pilot unions went out in full force to get pilots to fess up and meet with union lawyers for those that had not been reporting it on the FAA form but had been receiving VA compensation.

I’m pretty certain every pilot employed by a company represented by a union is well aware of reporting VA compensation benefits under Medical Disability benefits on the FAA form.


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Fracpilot said:
The VA term is “VA compensation”. So if I am receiving VA compensation for scars that I received on active duty, which are completely unrelated to a FAA medical, then why would I call this medical disability? The thought was medical disability was related to a military medical retirement or social security disability benefits, not the VA.


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The VA term may be “VA compensation” but I and every other vet I know have always referred to it as disability. I believe those pilots knew exactly what they were doing when they chose to lie on their medical.

the following is copy and pasted directly from the VA’s webpage about compensation.

“Disability Compensation is a tax free monetary benefit paid to Veterans with disabilities that are the result of a disease or injury incurred or aggravated during active military service. Compensation may also be paid for post-service disabilities that are considered related or secondary to disabilities occurring in service and for disabilities presumed to be related to circumstances of military service, even though they may arise after service. Generally, the degrees of disability specified are also designed to compensate for considerable loss of working time from exacerbations or illnesses.”

https://www.benefits.va.gov/compensation/
 
midlifeflyer said:
People with reported felony convictions, even felony drug convictions, have received ATPs.
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Oh I’m well aware of that. And there are those that the FAA goes after for lacking good moral character as well.

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/n...e-pilots-flying-under-the-radar/287-346405092

My point was, doesn’t matter if it’s the FAA or an employer, based on subjective criteria, one could be found lacking good moral character. Doesn’t even have to be an ATP. I’d be willing to bet most pilots flying for a living, whether military or civilian, have some sort of clause in their code of ethics about personal conduct outside of work.
 
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bflynn said:
I predict that's a phrase that is going to go away in the future. What does "moral" mean anymore and doesn't it vary based on who is judging it?
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I'm surprised it's still there. I never researched it, but I figured it was something that was inserted in the regs many decades ago as a catch-all clause, and no one has bothered to remove it.
 
Everskyward said:
I'm surprised it's still there. I never researched it, but I figured it was something that was inserted in the regs many decades ago as a catch-all clause, and no one has bothered to remove it.
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I think it also used to appear in the CFI requirements but it was long gone from there.

Years ago I got a brochure from SPEBSQSA (now graciously the Barbershop Harmony Society) that said membership was open to "congenial gentlemen of good character." I told Margy that left me out on three points.
 
Fracpilot said:
As long as you report it the the FAA, it’s very perfectly legal to receive VA compensation and have a FAA medical so long as the items you’re receiving VA compensation for isn’t disqualifying for the FAA medical. It’s not one or the other situation. You can have both.

The FAA form is also a bit misleading. The question on the form states have you ever received “medical disability”.

The VA term is “VA compensation”. So if I am receiving VA compensation for scars that I received on active duty, which are completely unrelated to a FAA medical, then why would I call this medical disability? The thought was medical disability was related to a military medical retirement or social security disability benefits, not the VA.

I believe VA benefits were later added to the definition of “Medical Disability” on the FAA form. I’m not sure it was always there. When the FAA went after this guy, the pilot unions went out in full force to get pilots to fess up and meet with union lawyers for those that had not been reporting it on the FAA form but had been receiving VA compensation.

I’m pretty certain every pilot employed by a company represented by a union is well aware of reporting VA compensation benefits under Medical Disability benefits on the FAA form.


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I have worked with several pilots that were a 100% rating, held first class medical and reported everything to FAA.
 
He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone
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This forum has the biggest collection of 100% honest people I've ever run across. If only the world were as you seem to think it is. I'd love to believe none of you have ever lied, ever.



But I don't.
 
Salty said:
This forum has the biggest collection of 100% honest people I've ever run across. If only the world were as you seem to think it is. I'd love to believe none of you have ever lied, ever.


But I don't.
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Don't confuse honesty with being very very talented at lying. :D
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I have worked with several pilots that were a 100% rating, held first class medical and reported everything to FAA.
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Many of those dudes *love* to brag about it too. ;) How any of it was reported I dunno, though. Never asked.
 
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