Piper PA-46 crash kills four people in Texas

Sad. Already at altitude. Didn’t have any weather. Seems like the plane stays busy.
 
RIP, appears it was owned by a CPL SEL MEL IFR
 
Very strange for a PA46 to have an engine problem at 18k and not be able to make a safe landing. It looks like he was orbiting down to make a landing at Hilltop. Wonder what happened on the way down. Should have been able to make Coulter or Madisonville.
 
Very strange for a PA46 to have an engine problem at 18k and not be able to make a safe landing. It looks like he was orbiting down to make a landing at Hilltop. Wonder what happened on the way down. Should have been able to make Coulter or Madisonville.


FCU issue with panic?
Cabin pressure loss with those effects?

Hopefully they do a good investigation and find out.

The owner of the LLC appears to have been the pilot, wonder how many hours he was flying and if he was regularly attending FSI or CAE training.
 
Very strange for a PA46 to have an engine problem at 18k and not be able to make a safe landing. It looks like he was orbiting down to make a landing at Hilltop. Wonder what happened on the way down. Should have been able to make Coulter or Madisonville.

Remember the PC-12 off-field landing earlier this year where the pilot did a 360 (presumably to lose excess altitude), and landed short of the field in an engine out situation? Weird things happen and some folks are better at energy management than others.
 
Remember the PC-12 off-field landing earlier this year where the pilot did a 360 (presumably to lose excess altitude), and landed short of the field in an engine out situation? Weird things happen and some folks are better at energy management than others.

I wonder if this was a classic "stretch the glide" stall.

I watched a pilot in a piston Malibu get too slow on short final at OSH a few years ago. Fortunately he was so low it pancaked onto the runway wings level when it stalled and they all survived. But the engine separated and started a fire.
 
I wonder if this was a classic "stretch the glide" stall.

Read the witness's description of the crash in the linked story. It is very concise. Based on that and the photo of the plane, it certainly appears it stalled while banking close to the ground.

Another sad one.
 
At that altitude, and with a flyable plane, I’d want the presence of mind to pitch to best glide(+5 kts) then take your time. You’d have a fair amount of time, pressurization could be a problem early on, engine mostly out. Even though it’s not like being at 35k, maybe hypoxia contributed?

With good weather should be some options, where’s that 8k runway? Then backing up to the engine issue, reason for that?

Looks like quite the plane, tragic event no doubt.
 
Very strange for a turbine powered anything to have an engine problem at 18k.

It appears this is a JetPropDLX.

Very capable aircraft.

Very strange for a PA46 to have an engine problem at 18k and not be able to make a safe landing. It looks like he was orbiting down to make a landing at Hilltop. Wonder what happened on the way down. Should have been able to make Coulter or Madisonville.
 
I'm wondering if the supposed invulnerability of turbines creates a mind set that you don't have to plan for that emergency any longer. And like the VFR into IMC crashes that we see happen with an IFR rated pilot, the pilot fixates and gets behind the airplane.
 
Very strange for a turbine powered anything to have an engine problem at 18k.

It appears this is a JetPropDLX.

Very capable aircraft.
FAA registry still indicates Conti power. I don't know if that is updated upon conversion. Those things glide very well, I am told; from their altitude they had a conservative 15+ nm radius, or about 700 sq. nm, to land in.
 
Not sure if that was a typo, But the glide range of the jetprop from 18,000 feet should be around 50 not 15 nm. And time in air of almost 26 minutes. The descent rate in this accident doesn’t make sense unless the plane was on fire and he felt he needed to get down. Even then was not a good descent rate for a plane on fire. Maybe the prop didn’t feather. Sad, but from the outside seems very unusual. RIP
 
Maybe had a problem, pushed the NRST button and just went for the nearest airport.
 
It seems he just made too many corrections at the end and probably lost valuable speed doing so. Focusing on landing and the corrections he was making and loosing track of his glide speed. RIP.
 
Such a pity. This should have been a survivable war story.

FAA registry still indicates Conti power. I don't know if that is updated upon conversion. Those things glide very well, I am told; from their altitude they had a conservative 15+ nm radius, or about 700 sq. nm, to land in.

I'm not sure if JetProp STCs will reflect that, like an OEM Meridian will.
 
Regarding the JetProp conversion, is it common practice to install used engines?
 
Regarding the JetProp conversion, is it common practice to install used engines?

I know it is not an uncommon practice to install used piston engines when owners decide to switch early, for various reasons.
 
bUt TuRbInES NevEr FaiL

ReAL piLOtS DoN'T NeEd ParaCHUtEs



From the track it does appear that things were largely under control until the last moment (he basically kept flying that pattern), which is a real shame to have all that time circling over a field just to lose it at the end :(

We just saw in the other video from that Cessna where the guy basically stalled it 100' up that maybe not everyone is as good at doing a dead stick landing as they think they would be when it eventually happens in real life


Such a pity. This should have been a survivable war story.
100%.. agree training, especially the biannual flight reviews, really need to spend more time on real world emergencies, and people really ought to practice those engine failures.. beyond just the "fuel on both, mags on both, full rich, oh surprise it came back to life" thing

My instructor wouldn't sign me off for solo until he watched me do multiple full stop "dead stick" landings out at FIT.. it's much harder than people think to time everything right with the maneuvering, wind gusts, turbulence, flaps, etc. to actually put it down.. I think it took probably a dozen tries to not end up too high or too low and having to "cheat" with the engine. Add the stress of it happening for real with no CFI next to you?? damn
 
Parachutes don't save you from Stall/Spin and you'd try and safe the airframe in a Cirrus from 18000' too.

PT6s fail at ridiculously low rates - I'm pretty sure even less than turbofans.
 
and safe the airframe in a Cirrus from 18000'
Probably, but if I got to 1K agl and it didn't look right or I didn't feel 100% confident that I could safely put it down then I'd be pulling that handle. Why risk it?

But the real point is, short of some other unknown variable this absolutely should have been a survivable accident if it really was just a power failure
 
Parachutes don't save you from Stall/Spin
Someone should tell the FAA that. They let Cirrus out of the spin certification steps because of the chute.
 
Parachutes don't save you from Stall/Spin and you'd try and safe the airframe in a Cirrus from 18000' too.
I’m not quite following this - Cirrus teaches that CAPS should be activated in the event of a spin.
 
Probably, but if I got to 1K agl and it didn't look right or I didn't feel 100% confident that I could safely put it down then I'd be pulling that handle. Why risk it?

Yeah.. then you'd get a bunch of second-guessers here asking why you didn't save the plane and saying how parachutes invite complacency.
 
I’m not quite following this - Cirrus teaches that CAPS should be activated in the event of a spin.
Most spins are from base to final and only a couple hundred feet off the ground. Parachute won't do diddly.
 
...From the track it does appear that things were largely under control until the last moment (he basically kept flying that pattern), which is a real shame to have all that time circling over a field just to lose it at the end :(...

...My instructor wouldn't sign me off for solo until he watched me do multiple full stop "dead stick" landings out at FIT.. it's much harder than people think to time everything right with the maneuvering, wind gusts, turbulence, flaps, etc. to actually put it down.. I think it took probably a dozen tries to not end up too high or too low and having to "cheat" with the engine. Add the stress of it happening for real with no CFI next to you?? damn

And that's possibly one of the problems?
"Success" in training reinforces "making the runway and not bending the plane".
Perhaps (unconsciously?) that is what this unfortunate pilot was trying to do when he stalled it a bit short?

Some years ago we had a Conti piston Malibu based at my airport lose the engine at altitude in night VFR conditions. Instead of choosing the highway beneath him the pilot tried to glide it to an airport in the valley behind him. Hit a tree just short of the runway.

In real life success is saving the contents; the airframe is expendable. But that is not what gets reinforced in the training.
Even the debates about pulling the chute deployment handle in a Cirrus seems to have an underlying subplot of reluctance in order to "save the airframe" woven in it. I think this was the very thing Cirrus had to "train out" of its owners/pilots.
 
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And that's possibly one of the problems?
"Success" in training reinforces "making the runway and not bending the plane".
Perhaps (unconsciously?) that is what this unfortunate pilot was trying to do when he stalled it a bit short?

Some years ago we had a Conti piston Malibu based at my airport lose the engine at altitude in night VFR conditions. Instead of choosing the highway beneath him the pilot tried to glide it to an airport in the valley behind him. Hit a tree just short of the runway.

In real life success is saving the contents; the airframe is expendable. But that is not what gets reinforced in the training.
Even the debates about pulling the chute deployment handle in a Cirrus seems to have an underlying subplot of reluctance in order to "save the airframe" woven in it. I think this was the very thing Cirrus had to "train out" of its owners/pilots.
That's an interesting perspective, but it makes sense. I hadn't thought about that with the dead stick practice having to actually put it on the ground.. you are completely right about Cirrus by the way, that's one of the things that is heavily trained now in the transition course is to just pull the damn thing and basically guarantee your survival
 
In real life success is saving the contents; the airframe is expendable.

That's why I've posted a few times ''That's not a crash, it was a successful off airport emergency landing."

When the pilot and passengers are unharmed or not seriously injured, the aircraft is of no importance. Things turned out good.
 
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When the pilot and passengers are unharmed or not seriously injured, the aircraft is of no importance.

^^^This^^^

The flight school I went to taught that the less damage done to the plane after a forced landing, the less the FAA will want from the pilot.

I pretty much stated if the engine fails I don't care what anyone thinks or about the airplane anymore. The most important item is to get the passengers on the ground with the least amount of injuries, even if I have to destroy the airplane to do that. The school actually discussed dis-enrolling me from their program for that thought.
 
bUt TuRbInES NevEr FaiL

ReAL piLOtS DoN'T NeEd ParaCHUtEs



From the track it does appear that things were largely under control until the last moment (he basically kept flying that pattern), which is a real shame to have all that time circling over a field just to lose it at the end :(

We just saw in the other video from that Cessna where the guy basically stalled it 100' up that maybe not everyone is as good at doing a dead stick landing as they think they would be when it eventually happens in real life



100%.. agree training, especially the biannual flight reviews, really need to spend more time on real world emergencies, and people really ought to practice those engine failures.. beyond just the "fuel on both, mags on both, full rich, oh surprise it came back to life" thing

My instructor wouldn't sign me off for solo until he watched me do multiple full stop "dead stick" landings out at FIT.. it's much harder than people think to time everything right with the maneuvering, wind gusts, turbulence, flaps, etc. to actually put it down.. I think it took probably a dozen tries to not end up too high or too low and having to "cheat" with the engine. Add the stress of it happening for real with no CFI next to you?? damn
Twice-a-year flight reviews would indeed be helpful, but they are only required every other year. ;-}
Landing dead-stick from anywhere was my flight instructor's absolute gift. He'd say, "where would you land if the engine quit now?", I'd point to a field, he'd land at the airport. (Glider pilot, of course!)
Energy management doesn't stop until the wheels do.
 
I wonder if this was a classic "stretch the glide" stall.

I watched a pilot in a piston Malibu get too slow on short final at OSH a few years ago. Fortunately he was so low it pancaked onto the runway wings level when it stalled and they all survived. But the engine separated and started a fire.
I landed just after that happened.
 
"guaranteed survival".....you heard it here first, folks!
"basically" - being the operative word. Short of hypothermia a life jacket is also a great asset to have on a boat, even if you are a good swimmer
 
Back when I was solo backpacking a lot, I thought, plan for the least likely case, ensure survival in nearly all cases. Still apply that to aviation.
 
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