Dual cross country before solo?

Trogdor

Trogdor

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Trogdor
Just checking in and I want to confirm something...

I'm a 10-hour student who has had to do a lot of crosswind landings of late given our crappy weather here in the Northeast. I've been doing a lot of landing practice, power-off/on stalls (he had me friggin land from ~3500-4k with the master switch off on lesson 2 which went surprisingly uninventful).

My landings are mostly OK (all power-off stalls essentially) but I feel they could be better (mainly just fighting for center line in a crosswind is my problem - but most of my landings are certainly reasonable).

Anyway, next week I'm suppose to do my duel cross country but someone just told me I shouldn't do that until I solo? Is that right? I didn't think it matters. I figured I would solo when my CFI thinks I'm ready (and I love my CFI, I think he is awesome!!).
 
It is not typical, but I don't think it is a hindrance. Your instructor may just think you need a break for just T/O and landings. May also want you try landings another other airports.
If you are going to be going to another airport, might as well start on your navigation skills.

As I think about it more, I probably often do something similar with students. I just don't call it a cross country since they aren't more than 50 miles. But at about 10 hours I often start taking students to other airports and runways.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Caveat - I'm not a CFI. I know some instructors who will do XC with the student before solo and some who don't. But, with all due respect to "someone", it doesn't matter what "someone" tells you. May I suggest that it matters more what your instructor thinks is appropriate for your training.

Anyway, talk to your instructor about expectations.
 
Relax and enjoy the variety. Your instructor is trying to get you the most amount of learning opportunity for each hour you're paying for.
 
It doesn’t really matter. Lots of people like to chime in and make opinions to students, but most of them don’t have a clue and just like to sound smart.

It’s typically done after solo as part of the second stage of training, but assuming it’s a Part 61, it really doesn’t matter what order it’s completed.
 
What these folks said... While I do not normally worry about anything cross-country until after they can safely fly solo locally (simply to give them a measurable "milestone" of sorts), as long as you are actually learning something and the instructor is not just trying to pad their logbook, the sequence of the training is not that critical.
 
This conversation should be had with your CFI.

You should also have an idea of all the experience requirements and ask how he sees all this fitting together in your training.
 
Ryanb said:
It doesn’t really matter. Lots of people like to chime in and make opinions to students, but most of them don’t have a clue and just like to sound smart.

It’s typically done after solo as part of the second stage of training, but assuming it’s a Part 61, it really doesn’t matter what order it’s completed.
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Lol ironic
 
I honestly think he just wants me to land at a few different airports to build my confidence so I can solo.

Under no circumstances is he trying to milk me for hours (that is funny given how many hours he has!). I think he knows self-confidence is a big issue with me and flying (I don't really know why either but it is).

Btw, thanks for the feedback folks. Becoming a pilot is a real dream of mine and there are days I feel it is so far away...
 
TCABM said:
This conversation should be had with your CFI.

You should also have an idea of all the experience requirements and ask how he sees all this fitting together in your training.
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Syllabus? That is why good instructors always use a syllabus and give a copy to the student...so that they are both on the same page.

Bob
 
I'm not sure every school has an official syllabus. I did ask several places and it was a mixed bag.
 
Trogdor said:
I'm not sure every school has an official syllabus. I did ask several places and it was a mixed bag.
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Not every school will have one and not every CFI will use one, which is why I try to use plain English to describe the concept that you, as the student, deserve to understand the path your CFI seeks to get you from start to finish.

Any instructor should be able to do this to the detail you desire. Nothing prevents a student from taking ownership of making that conversation happen, both initially and continually.
 
Here in the NW (trained for PPL in both WA and AK), the winds and weather can limit when you may be able to solo. My first instructor conducted some training with me to airports with different runway alignments prior to signing me off to solo and I was told the reasons were two-fold. One was because I wasn't ready to solo in the weather conditions but shouldn't be held back from progressing and the second was so I would be ready in case of a runway closure or sudden weather change and had a need to divert. My initial training was at an Army flying club on base at JBLM so the attitude may be different but it seemed reasonable to me then and still does 15 years later.
 
Trogdor said:
...

Anyway, next week I'm suppose to do my duel cross country but someone just told me I shouldn't do that until I solo? Is that right? I didn't think it matters. I figured I would solo when my CFI thinks I'm ready (and I love my CFI, I think he is awesome!!).
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I don't think it matters. Then again, I only have 19.5 hours of time as a student and just did my first dual XC with my instructor two days ago, so take my experience for what it's worth. My landings are likely similar to yours: reasonable. I've had some really great ones and some really ugly ones, but they're definitely getting better.

The biggest reason I haven't soloed yet is I'm still waiting on my medical from OKC. Now that CAMI has everything they need (and it's all scanned in!), I'm hoping that I'll have it relatively soon.
 
Trogdor said:
(he had me friggin land from ~3500-4k with the master switch off on lesson 2 which went surprisingly uninventful).
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Master switch off? 3500-4k AGL or ASL? Some odd stuff in your training program.
 
There is an instructional school of thought that has you waiting until the end of training to do all your solo work. Although I've usually done the first solo near the beginning of training, I can see this other approach having some merit.
 
Trogdor said:
I'm not sure every school has an official syllabus. I did ask several places and it was a mixed bag.
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I am not a school, am completely independent and even I use a syllabus for each rating. It's not hard to find one you like and download it, or even to make your own.

IMO, every CFI should use a syllabus. How else do both you and the CFI know what's expected of you, and what you're doing on each lesson?

If I went somewhere to get a rating and they didn't use a syllabus, I'd go somewhere else
 
Master switch off probably around 2.5k to the runway. Scared the bejeesus out of me. But I landed it.
 
Trogdor said:
Master switch off probably around 2.5k to the runway. Scared the bejeesus out of me. But I landed it.
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Two questions:

1. Why was the Master Switch turned off?

2. Why did it scare you?
 
RussR said:
I am not a school, am completely independent and even I use a syllabus for each rating. It's not hard to find one you like and download it, or even to make your own.

IMO, every CFI should use a syllabus. How else do both you and the CFI know what's expected of you, and what you're doing on each lesson?

If I went somewhere to get a rating and they didn't use a syllabus, I'd go somewhere else
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Thank you for saving me from typing this. I did just that many years ago when the CFII I interviewed to do my instrument rating didn't have an answer when I asked what syllabus he used.
 
Trogdor said:
Master switch off probably around 2.5k to the runway. Scared the bejeesus out of me. But I landed it.
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Typically the master switch is turned off in flight to chest the flight school out of paying for flight time when the Hobbs is wired to the electrical main bus. Not a good idea as transponders and Adsb goes dark.
 
smv said:
Two questions:

1. Why was the Master Switch turned off?

2. Why did it scare you?
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To simulate an engine failure.

The feeling of lift became the feeling of glide which I have never felt before. Does it really matter?
 
allPrimes said:
The biggest reason I haven't soloed yet is I'm still waiting on my medical from OKC. Now that CAMI has everything they need (and it's all scanned in!), I'm hoping that I'll have it relatively soon.
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Good luck and report back! (PM me)
 
Trogdor said:
To simulate an engine failure.

The feeling of lift became the feeling of glide which I have never felt before. Does it really matter?
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Yes it does really matter because I have a feeling you are mixing up your switches... What kind of airplane are you flying that ties the engine ignition to the Master Switch? Some kind of FADEC? ...or perhaps you mean the Magneto Switch?

In 99% of primary training aircraft, turning off the Master Switch has absolutely ZERO effect on the engine.
 
Trogdor said:
To simulate an engine failure.

The feeling of lift became the feeling of glide which I have never felt before. Does it really matter?
Click to expand...

There might be a terminology issue here that is misunderstood. Turning the master switch off has no effect on the engine operation (in most piston airplanes). It will run just fine with the master off.
 
Brad Z said:
What plane were you flying? Did it have fadec?
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Never flown a piston engine with FADEC, but the turbines I deal with have a permanent magnet alternator in the fuel controller to power FADEC in the event of a loss of ship’s power. Do piston FADEC’s not have something similar?
 
Trogdor said:
I'm not sure every school has an official syllabus. I did ask several places and it was a mixed bag.
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Not sure what you mean by "official" syllabus, but your instructor should have provided you with a typical sequence of lesson objectives. There might be a good reason why he is doing dual XC before solo, but you have the right to know what that reason is. Asking here is not going to get you that answer.
 
Come to think of it, if memory serves me right (it has been about eight years), even the DA42 had individual Master Switches for each of its FADEC controlled engines and turning off the Master Master Switch, had no effect on the engines.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Never flown a piston engine with FADEC, but the turbines I deal with have a permanent magnet alternator in the fuel controller to power FADEC in the event of a loss of ship’s power. Do piston FADEC’s not have something similar?
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I got my Multi-Ratings in DA42s. Diesel powered but FADEC controlled. (I still feel like I cheated somehow... ;)) As I recall, even with complete electical system failure, the FADEC computers had their own battery backup that would run the engines for 30 minutes.

Edit to add: ...and the backup instruments had a battery that was good for 1.5 hours. So the 'old' joke was if you were in the clouds, you could fly under power for 30 more minutes and then you had another hour to glide through an aproach before you needed to be in the clear and headed for the runway.
 
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I think you're better off learning some more basics instead of going sightseeing on a cross country.

Aircraft systems are pretty important to know cold. And even if you're just typing it wrong, master switch won't stop an engine. Also, turning off the ignition/mags will, but that's not simulating and it's not a lesson item. If anything pulling the throttle on you to simulate loss of power.

Might want to find a new CFI to love if these things are really part of his unwritten syllabus.
 
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I used to fly a Thielert diesel 172 conversion and if I recall there was an “engine master”. It was how you shut the engine off since there wasn’t a mixture lever to pull. Even though I put about 500 hours on it, it’s been 12 years since I flew it and I can’t recall if it was a a switch or a button.

Edit: I think it was a push button starter and a protected rocker switch for the “engine master”.
 
Ravioli said:
I think you're better off learning some more basics instead of going sightseeing on a cross country.

Aircraft systems are pretty important to know cold. And even if you're just typing it wrong, master switch won't stop an engine. Also, turning off the ignition/mags will, but that's not simulating and it's not a lesson item. If anything pulling the throttle on you to simulate loss of power.

Might want to find a new CFI to love if these things are really part of his unwritten syllabus.
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Agreed... After ten hours you would think a student has run the "Pre-Flight", "Before Start", and "Engine Start" checklist enough times to know the difference between the Mags and the Master. That was why I asked what I did about why the "master" was turned off in flight. Giving the benfit of the doubt that there really is an airplane out there that controls the engine through the Master Switch or hoping it was an honest mistake and not a mislearned item...
 
RussR said:
There might be a terminology issue here that is misunderstood. Turning the master switch off has no effect on the engine operation (in most piston airplanes). It will run just fine with the master off.
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Yep. Had an alternator failure several years ago. All the electric juice provided by the battery. In order to conserve it, I informed NORCAL approach of the situation and got permission to re-enter SFO’s mode C veil without a transponder. Master off to save the battery until I got close to San Jose and then master back on to communicate and lower the flaps. I used the emergency gear drop procedure to lower the landing gear so I wouldn’t be wasting juice for that task. The engine ran just fine for many minutes while the master was off.

To the OP. The master switch, in the vast majority of typical piston planes, just controls the electrical system. Turning it off will have no effect on the engine, which uses, typically, dual magnetos to provide the spark. Master on or master off, the engine will run just fine.
 
Brad Z said:
I used to fly a Thielert diesel 172 conversion and if I recall there was an “engine master”. It was how you shut the engine off since there wasn’t a mixture lever to pull. Even though I put about 500 hours on it, it’s been 12 years since I flew it and I can’t recall if it was a a switch or a button.

Edit: I think it was a push button starter and a protected rocker switch for the “engine master”.
Click to expand...

The 42's Engine Master Switches were ON/OFF toggles. They did not directly turn off the engines, per se, they secured power to the computers that ran the engines. The "Start" switch was a three-way key switch with a spring return to center. To the left started the left engine to the right started the right engine.
 
smv said:
The 42's Engine Master Switches were ON/OFF toggles. They did not directly turn off the engines, per se, they secured power to the computers that ran the engines. The "Start" switch was a three-way key switch with a spring return to center. To the left started the left engine to the right started the right engine.
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Ok, a little different for the Cessna conversions, at least the mid-2000 conversions. No keys except to lock the door. Just a round start button.
 
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Trogdor said:
To simulate an engine failure.

The feeling of lift became the feeling of glide which I have never felt before. Does it really matter?
Click to expand...
Ummm... how does turning the master switch off simulate an engine failure? I've turned the master switch off on students precisely to show it has no effect on the engine.
 
I guess I wasn't being clear (and I misread the original question to me - I thought it was asking why I glided down not why the master switch was off):

* The master switch was turned off to demonstrate the plane won't fall out of the sky (magnetos are still in full effect for spark, analog instrumentation are mostly operative (I think some birds use electric for the gyro instead of vacuum))
* Power was put to idle to demonstrate the same thing as well as how to glide and pitch for speed (65)

I understand what the master switch does. (98% on my knowledge too - not saying I"m an expert but I have read the material).

Again, sorry for the confusion. Mea culpa.
 
Trogdor said:
I'm not sure every school has an official syllabus. I did ask several places and it was a mixed bag.
Click to expand...

"Official" gets into Part 141 territory, because when the FAA designates a school as 141 it approves the syllabus as part of the whole package.

There are many syllabi available...Sporty's and www.asa2fly.com would be good places to start your search....and of course you can make up your own. Just be sure that the instructor and the student are using the same syllabus.
 
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