DWI: Refused to test, need help for reporting

Again, you're making the assumption that he'd have blown less than .15.
 
The accuracy of all breath tests, not just PBTs, has been called into significant question, given the Massachusetts cases. Of course, that is not all that relevant to the OP's behavior, but simply presuming that they are accurate really isn't such a great idea.
 
It's not an "accuracy" issue, but what is legally admissible in a given court and what is legally required by law with regard to the informed consent law.
 
A big ol idiot said:
My main question right now is do I still need to report this violation and citation to the FAA. I technically still have my license but I am definitely still in the State record base for the arrest. I've been assuming I still need to. I was hoping to have at least a court date in before my 60 days was up so I'd know where i stand, but because of the virus this has already been continued past the 60 days stated. The state is Missouri if this makes any difference. Thanks in advance for any advice.
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Personally I would say yes no buts or ifs. You can even read the AOPA articles on the subject. The main issue is that if you try to hide it and later they find out which they will as they have access to driving records, the penalties are a different ballgame.

You will also now be subjected to special issuances for the rest of your life. An NTSB recommendation that the FAA started to apply this year. In fact people who had DUIs or addictions decades ago and are fully sober are now getting certified letters in the mail which the AOPA is trying to address.

A knowledgeable attorney can help you navigate this of course and get one asap. Maybe if you are really really lucky you could get this knocked to a reckless driving charge and maybe make cause to a judge that it would ruin your certificates as a pilot for the rest of your existence which could qualify as cruel and unusual punishment so you could argue for some sort of probationary period from the state.
 
N1120A said:
The accuracy of all breath tests, not just PBTs, has been called into significant question, given the Massachusetts cases. Of course, that is not all that relevant to the OP's behavior, but simply presuming that they are accurate really isn't such a great idea.
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It doesn’t matter if they are actually accurate, at least not yet. Courts treat them as though they are accurate. So we have to as well. Kinda like drug dogs. Courts allow probable cause for a search warrant to be met solely by the actions of a dog... think about that while you’re chewing on the validity of a breath test.
 
Ian Pilot said:
You will also now be subjected to special issuances for the rest of your life. An NTSB recommendation that the FAA started to apply this year. In fact people who had DUIs or addictions decades ago and are fully sober are now getting certified letters in the mail which the AOPA is trying to address.
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Well, this would be an interesting development? Source? More info?
 
Ian Pilot said:
Personally I would say yes no buts or ifs. You can even read the AOPA articles on the subject. The main issue is that if you try to hide it and later they find out which they will as they have access to driving records, the penalties are a different ballgame.

You will also now be subjected to special issuances for the rest of your life. An NTSB recommendation that the FAA started to apply this year. In fact people who had DUIs or addictions decades ago and are fully sober are now getting certified letters in the mail which the AOPA is trying to address.

A knowledgeable attorney can help you navigate this of course and get one asap. Maybe if you are really really lucky you could get this knocked to a reckless driving charge and maybe make cause to a judge that it would ruin your certificates as a pilot for the rest of your existence which could qualify as cruel and unusual punishment so you could argue for some sort of probationary period from the state.
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Again, dependency, for life. Abuse, not so. There is a step down after 5 years but there will alway be some form of surveillance.

FAA did not get the DUI, remember? And dependency IS a lifelong problem, like CAD.
 
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Ian Pilot said:
A knowledgeable attorney can help you navigate this of course and get one asap. Maybe if you are really really lucky you could get this knocked to a reckless driving charge and maybe make cause to a judge that it would ruin your certificates as a pilot for the rest of your existence which could qualify as cruel and unusual punishment so you could argue for some sort of probationary period from the state.
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Your post exhibits a stunning lack of knowledge.
 
A big ol idiot said:
I guess ill start writing up my letter tomorro . Another question to anyone who would be willing to answer. Think its time i look for another life calling? Seems like with the industry downturn and me being a big ol idiot im screwed at this point. Or should i wait for the FAA to get back to me and see what happens with my case? Theres a good chance I could get the charges completely wiped clean since i was pulled over for "failing to keep right" in an area with no centerline. My lawyer has had some good luck lately with getting charges overturned on "unjustified traffic stops".
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Not sure if it's too late now, but reporting to the FAA was a requirement. 61.15 (c)(2), your driver's license was cancelled, suspended or revoked for a MV incident due to alcohol - you're in it. Your lawyer might be able to get the charge dropped or reduced, but the FAA won't care.

Flying wise, you're not done. The skies are filled with pilots who are ex-drinkers. But you should recognize that now your price of flying is no drinking, forever plus constant monitoring, forever. If you want to fly, alcohol is no longer a part of your life. If you can't do that, then yes, you're hanging it up.
 
...alcohol causes more legal issues. Divorces, family separation, career ending events, and dysfunctional parenting than any substance known although marijuana is closing in fast for that title.

word of advice, don’t drink...not even one. Bad medicine. No good...trouble...
It is not too late, you are very lucky if this is all u got to solve and that should tell u how bad alcohol is....man up and don’t drink.
 
PiperW said:
...alcohol causes more legal issues. Divorces, family separation, career ending events, and dysfunctional parenting than any substance known although marijuana is closing in fast for that title.

word of advice, don’t drink...not even one. Bad medicine. No good...trouble...
It is not too late, you are very lucky if this is all u got to solve and that should tell u how bad alcohol is....man up and don’t drink.
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Might broad brush you’re painting with...
 
bflynn said:
Summary, the FAA has changed policy so that a DUI is now considered a symptom of a chronic alcohol problem rather than a single event.
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I read the AOPA article and I didn't get that impression. The article states:

On April 1, 2020, however, the FAA apparently determined that it was time to grant the NTSB’s request by announcing that all airmen who have been clinically diagnosed with substance dependence shall be placed on a special issuance for any duration deemed appropriate. [9] In our experience to date, “any duration” has translated into a period no less than lifetime monitoring.

Does a DUI/DWI amount to a clinically diagnosed substance dependence? Maybe I'm just playing devil's advocate, here (no stake in the game), but I don't see how someone who got a drunk driving DUI decades ago, reported it, has a medical can be given a special issuance since I can't see how it is a clinically diagnosed dependence.

But, again, maybe I'm just playing devil's advocate. I am certainly not a lawyer. Even less so a doctor (although I did sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night...)
 
AOPA has very little HIMS expertise, beyond reading and not necessarily understanding what the words mean in 67.307.
Again, if the diagnosis is “dependency” you get monitored at some level for like.
For Abuse, not so much.

If you go to pic.aopa.org you will see the HIMS questions largely unanswered by staff.

And pilot protection services talks about DSM5 symptoms. They are unaware that the Agency uses....wait for it....DSM4. Sigh.

....so very misguided.....
 
PiperW said:
...alcohol causes more legal issues. Divorces, family separation, career ending events, and dysfunctional parenting than any substance known although marijuana is closing in fast for that title.

word of advice, don’t drink...not even one. Bad medicine. No good...trouble...
It is not too late, you are very lucky if this is all u got to solve and that should tell u how bad alcohol is....man up and don’t drink.
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Don’t tell me what to do or how to live my life. Seriously, I have a wife for that
And there is plenty of ‘man’ here. At least 290 pounds.
Seriously though just don’t even try.
 
Morgan3820 said:
Don’t tell me what to do or how to live my life.
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Just don't get pulled over or, according to what I read in this post and I guess that AOPA article, if you get pulled over or every have been pulled over for a DUI you will have to pee in a cup for life if you want to fly. Not worth it to me, but for sure I wouldn't tell anyone how to live their life. The FAA would, though.
 
Deelee said:
Just don't get pulled over or, according to what I read in this post and I guess that AOPA article, if you get pulled over or every have been pulled over for a DUI you will have to pee in a cup for life if you want to fly. Not worth it to me, but for sure I wouldn't tell anyone how to live their life. The FAA would, though.
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Holy crap. :dunno::dunno::dunno: Are you for real?

Going to ‘ignore’ mode
 
F6D33520-8037-4908-A8BE-75AB7117C567.jpeg

Hi everyone,
I am the federal air surgeon and I absolutely hate pilotS! That’s why I have finally enacted an NTSB recommendation that is over 13 years old! I have now made the sky’s a less safe place because pilots that would normally come forward with an alcohol problem are now going to seek treatment on there own without consulting their union or the faa.
 
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bbchien said:
AOPA has very little HIMS expertise, beyond reading and not necessarily understanding what the words mean in 67.307.
Again, if the diagnosis is “dependency” you get monitored at some level for like.
For Abuse, not so much.

If you go to pic.aopa.org you will see the HIMS questions largely unanswered by staff.

And pilot protection services talks about DSM5 symptoms. They are unaware that the Agency uses....wait for it....DSM4. Sigh.

....so very misguided.....
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Dr chien,
Does this mean that other pilots that were given a HIMS dependence diagnosis and were released from monitoring are now going to be called back into monitoring? That would only make it fair otherwise it sure as hell looks like the faa is facing a lawsuit on discrimination.
 
Deelee said:
Just don't get pulled over or, according to what I read in this post and I guess that AOPA article, if you get pulled over or every have been pulled over for a DUI you will have to pee in a cup for life if you want to fly. Not worth it to me, but for sure I wouldn't tell anyone how to live their life. The FAA would, though.
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The aeromedical position is so draconian you could find yourself having to play their game even if you had never consumed a drop of alcohol in your life.

To me it is clear the policies are driven by a puritanical push for abstaining from all consumption. The use of AA during monitoring is also problematic to me.
 
Luvtofly said:
Dr chien,
Does this mean that other pilots that were given a HIMS dependence diagnosis and were released from monitoring are now going to be called back into monitoring? That would only make it fair otherwise it sure as hell looks like the faa is facing a lawsuit on discrimination.
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No. If you have been released you ARE released.

And, Tarheel, it's sort of like engineering design. NOBODY tells you to land at 1.3 Vso, but the engineering will punish you if you don't.

Nobody tells you FAA wants you sober. But it's pretty darned impossible to continue if you imbibe.
 
bbchien said:
No. If you have been released you ARE released.

And, Tarheel, it's sort of like engineering design. NOBODY tells you to land at 1.3 Vso, but the engineering will punish you if you don't.

Nobody tells you FAA wants you sober. But it's pretty darned impossible to continue if you imbibe.
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Sorry Doc. I don’t agree. There’s nothing to justify what the regulatory body is doing. It is also contrary to the regulations. I hope someone comes along with enough money to take their butts to court.
 
Contrary to what regulation? The FAA regulations (and the enabling Federal law) are pretty nebulous about things giving large discretion to the Administrator (and his underlings) on medical matters.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Sorry Doc. I don’t agree. There’s nothing to justify what the regulatory body is doing. It is also contrary to the regulations. I hope someone comes along with enough money to take their butts to court.
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Well you don’t have to agree. Randy Babbitt still lost his job despite blowing <0.08. Lost his ticket, too.

The decision ultimately comes from congress and PBOR-2...
 
Actually, Babbitt had a rising BAC and subsequently tested at 0.08%. However, there were a lot of legal issues with the arrest and tests and they had to throw out the criminal charges.
It was the death of his FAA appointment. Too bad, he probably would have been a good administrator. My father (who was often on the opposite side of litigations with him) thought highly of him.
 
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