What a ride it has been

I’ve been on property for 6 months already and haven’t touched a plane. When I get recalled, I’ll only be on probation for a few months.
I understand your position. My fiancee flys for Delta as well and I still don't support CARES 2.0. It kinda makes it more difficult seeing big pay rolling in and watching the country suffer. I know the industry will bounce back and her and Jordan will both come back to great jobs though.

Edit, this was supposed to be directed at another poster. Sorry again for the news and I hope as much as you do for a speedy recovery.
 
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Yea I’m just glad I don’t have to worry about health care for 18 months. I think travel will come back sooner than expected. Delta relies heavily on business travelers and they’re saying business travel isn’t coming back anytime soon. I hope they’re wrong.
We haven't airlined since the whole pandemic started. Our owner wasn't in favor of that. Starting next month I think we will be back in the airline seats and I hope many others start to come back too.
 
I worked for a 135 back in the days after 9/11, and flew with a quite a number of furloughed airline pilots. I think a couple of them had been in training during 9/11 but were able to make it into the airplane... for about a month. Hopefully the airline recovery will be quicker than it was last time, but it seems as if more people are reluctant to fly because of the pandemic than they were because of the threat of terrorism. Who knows. I've flown on the airlines voluntarily since then, but I'm one of only two that I know of in this area. That said, the flights were 'full' accounting for the middle seat being vacant.
 
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This is a reckoning for the airline industry. For years management has made, and spent money like drunken sailors on the town on payday. Unfortunately they never put cash back for a contingency of a down turn. One reason cited was the idea of “we’re too big to fail, and the government will make sure we don’t.” Almost as if it’s an insurance policy with no premiums.

Now they are having to refigure their business models, such as fleet types and unprofitable routes among others.

IMO the downsizing is here to stay. I don’t see any of the big players, with the exception of SWA going back to pre-March 2020 levels anytime within the next several years.

Just an opinion. As far as the OP, his airline will continue to have retirements, and eventually he’ll regain his seat.
 
Why do airline pilots deserve to sit home and get paid so much when so many others were furloughed or laid off back in April?
It has nothing to do with what airline employees do, or don't, deserve. It's about maintaining a viable air travel system.

When an airline downsizes, they displace excess pilots down the seat/aircraft heiarchy. Some 777 Captains become 767 Captains, some 767 Captains become narrow-body Captains, many narrow-body Captains become wide-body FOs, many wide-body FOs become narrow-body FOs and many narrow-body FOs are finally furloughed.

For a large network carrier that is many thousands of training cycles. Unless a pilot has recently been qualified in the position to which he is being displaced, the training cycle takes about two months each. The largest airlines have the training capability to run several hundred of these training cycles simultaneously.

The depressed demand is expected to be relatively short-term with a rapid recovery toward previous levels once the crisis passes. At that point, airlines have to reverse the above process to retrain everyone back into the higher categories to make room for the returning furloughs and, eventually, new-hires.

The legislators who passed the CARES Act believed that it was in the national interest to maintain a basic level of service now and to facilitate the ability to rapidly return toward per-COVID levels when demand returns. In about a month, the CARES Act funding expires, and with it, the requirement for airlines to maintain that basic level of service and the prohibition on involuntary job cuts. Airlines will be free to dramatically reduce schedules and eliminate service to cities with low demand and to furlough many thousands of employees. If that happens, it will significantly impact the industries ability to ramp back up if an effective vaccine is deployed.

It's a trade off. Nobody knows the right answer as nobody knows when the crisis will end and and how quickly travel demand will return.
 
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I worked for a 135 back in the days after 9/11, and flew with a quite a number of furloughed airline pilots. I think a couple of them had been in training during 9/11 but were able to make it into the airplane... for about a month. Hopefully the airline recovery will be quicker than it was last time, but it seems as if more people are reluctant to fly because of the pandemic than they were because of the threat of terrorism. Who knows. I've flown on the airlines voluntarily since then, but I'm one of only two that I know of in this area. That said, the flights were 'full' accounting for the middle seat being vacant.
So far only one guy in our class got lucky with a part 91 Citation job. The rest haven’t been able to get a call back from any 135. It’s understandable. I’ve had 2 companies call me back and I told them up front, I’d be returning as soon as Delta calls so they’re not going to invest money into training me if I’m not staying for long term. If this pilatus gig works out, that’s great. If it doesn’t, that’s fine too.
 
“ and the government will make sure we don’t.” Almost as if it’s an insurance policy with no premiums.
This is what drives me bananas. Even though I have a significant vested interest in the success of Delta I also hate as a tax payer that Airlines are funded by us when times get tough. I also hated when GM got the ol' bailout back in the '08 crash.
 
We haven't airlined since the whole pandemic started. Our owner wasn't in favor of that. Starting next month I think we will be back in the airline seats and I hope many others start to come back too.
Buy Delta....if you can get a ticket without going through ATL:)
 
So far only one guy in our class got lucky with a part 91 Citation job. The rest haven’t been able to get a call back from any 135. It’s understandable. I’ve had 2 companies call me back and I told them up front, I’d be returning as soon as Delta calls so they’re not going to invest money into training me if I’m not staying for long term. If this pilatus gig works out, that’s great. If it doesn’t, that’s fine too.
If you lived on my side of the country I'd do all i could to help get you into an airplane during the time you're out of the 121 world.
 
So far only one guy in our class got lucky with a part 91 Citation job. The rest haven’t been able to get a call back from any 135. It’s understandable. I’ve had 2 companies call me back and I told them up front, I’d be returning as soon as Delta calls so they’re not going to invest money into training me if I’m not staying for long term. If this pilatus gig works out, that’s great. If it doesn’t, that’s fine too.
I think the attitude of our chief pilot at the time was that the pilots were going to be furloughed for at least a couple years, if not more. There was also no guarantee that non-airline pilots were going to stay for much more than that timeframe anyway. Although some people stayed for a long time, many thought the job was more of a stepping stone. Get your turbine and jet time, then move on. The company was openly realistic about what they were willing or able to pay. "We are not United Airlines."
 
This is a reckoning for the airline industry. For years management has made, and spent money like drunken sailors on the town on payday. Unfortunately they never put cash back for a contingency of a down turn. One reason cited was the idea of “we’re too big to fail, and the government will make sure we don’t.” Almost as if it’s an insurance policy with no premiums.

Holding back enough cash to weather what they’re currently facing, would have triggered a 40% tax penalty on that cash, annually.

Nobody is that stupid. Even an airline.

Try again. US businesses don’t hold cash in good times or bad, because they’re incentivized not to.
 
This is a reckoning for the airline industry. For years management has made, and spent money like drunken sailors on the town on payday. Unfortunately they never put cash back for a contingency of a down turn. One reason cited was the idea of “we’re too big to fail, and the government will make sure we don’t.” Almost as if it’s an insurance policy with no premiums.

Now they are having to refigure their business models, such as fleet types and unprofitable routes among others.

IMO the downsizing is here to stay. I don’t see any of the big players, with the exception of SWA going back to pre-March 2020 levels anytime within the next several years.

Just an opinion. As far as the OP, his airline will continue to have retirements, and eventually he’ll regain his seat.

Shrinking the profitability has never worked for a 121 carrier. Never has, never will. Once again, they'll make a trip thru chapter 11 and screw labor over.
 
Sounds like the pilot shortage is over for awhile. American is laying off in October too. It’s all too sad to hear.
 
Today I received my furlough letter from Delta. Unless there’s a cares 2, I’ll be out on October 1st. Its been crazy the past few months but I’ve been expecting it. Thankfully, ALPA is paying for COBRA so I don’t need to worry about insurance for 18 months, which is good because my current job doesn’t offer any. My last flight was February 22nd with Endeavor. I’ve been working as a car transporter for hertz. It’s funny, I’ve been more to JFK the past few weeks with hertz than with Delta! My former student’s dad is offering me right seat in a PC-12 all part 91. He owns a 135/91 company in FRG and they fly Falcon 2000s, GIV, PC-12, and an S-76z His pilot is leaving the first week of September and he said I can sit right seat. Once I get enough hours, he’s going to send me to flight safety so I can get PIC qualified. Thanks for coming to my ted talk:)
Sorry to hear this, but best of luck to you.
 
Shrinking the profitability has never worked for a 121 carrier. Never has, never will. Once again, they'll make a trip thru chapter 11 and screw labor over.

Over growing an airline doesn’t equal profitability. Adding and operating unprofitable routes doesn’t increase profitability. Running multiple fleet types which require multiple support channels for each fleet, plus the training and support for each fleet doesn’t equal profitability.

Southwest will come out ahead in all of this because they have adhered to a strict business model, and they have been fiscally responsible. Some smaller carriers will step in and fill voids by others exiting the market.

The legacy airlines will regroup, cut some fat and change their operating technique. Yes, I anticipate changes in CBA’s coming out of this. I also anticipate the demise of a few more carriers as the industry reshapes itself.

When I started out there was TWA, Pan Am, Braniff, NWA, Southern, PSA, Peoples Express, USAir and several more. The people working for them also thought they would never go away.
 
I’m definitely a Milton Friedman free market minimal government type economic guy. However wasn’t the whole airline industry better when it had some government regulation?

The employees seemed happier, as a passenger the flight experience was better and there are a lot more options for smaller markets and more direct flights.
 
Adding and operating unprofitable routes doesn’t increase profitability.
They're required by law to run some of those routes, to be fair. Nobody runs unprofitable routes for the fun of it.
 
Sounds like the pilot shortage is over for awhile. American is laying off in October too. It’s all too sad to hear.

Have to look that one up and see if they beat United’s “hold my beer” record setting number. Hadn’t seen the American announcement yet.
 
I’m definitely a Milton Friedman free market minimal government type economic guy. However wasn’t the whole airline industry better when it had some government regulation?
Better for whom?

It was better for the small percentage of the population who could afford to fly. Not so much for the majority who could not.

Better for the airlines, and their employees, that survived. Not so much for those that went bankrupt and ceased operation.

Better for the businessmen who enjoyed being served by young, pretty, single stewardesses. Not so much for the stewardesses who were forced to quit when they married or became 'too old' for the job.

I think we tend to look at the glamour of the industry from those times and overlook the problems.


You are talking Essential Air Service.
The CARES Act required participating airlines to maintain service. Some reductions were allowed but route eliminations were generally not. That is on track to expire at the end of September.
 
Glad to hear you found a plane to fly @jordane93 ! The Pilatus is a pretty cool machine.

Have to look that one up and see if they beat United’s “hold my beer” record setting number. Hadn’t seen the American announcement yet.

It was announced early last week. The official number is 1605.
 
Delta relies heavily on business travelers and they’re saying business travel isn’t coming back anytime soon. I hope they’re wrong.
They aren’t wrong. I would normally be on Delta several times a month with my new job. I haven’t flown since the end of February. Our corporate policy does not allow travel unless extreme emergency.
Many of my customers policies don’t allow visitors. Some places have extended work from home into next year.

The corporations are worried about this bug and somehow spreading it and getting sued, I guess.

I think you may be gone for a year so...hopefully less.

Good luck in the PC-12
 
I disagree with your #3, but that’s another thread.

Look on the bright side... I don’t know Delta’s probationary policy, but it’s quite possible you will finish probation without a chance to eff up.

Seriously though, good luck to you. I did not know ALPA was paying Cobra. Interesting.
I agree with his #3 but as you say... not this forum/thread

it’s not ALPA paying his cobra. It’s delta pilots paying using ALPA as the means to redistribute the money. I’m sure you have been ALPA at some point ... that experience varies significantly between companies.
 
I’m definitely a Milton Friedman free market minimal government type economic guy. However wasn’t the whole airline industry better when it had some government regulation?

The employees seemed happier, as a passenger the flight experience was better and there are a lot more options for smaller markets and more direct flights.
It was also really expensive to buy a ticket. Pick your poison. If we still had regulation the industry would have never been that big because most of the traveling public wouldn’t be able to afford a seat. I have bought airline tickets for less than the cost of fuel in my car. No way that happens in a regulated market. Frankly. I don’t give a crap if any or all of the airlines bust. There is always someone waiting in the wings to make their mark in industry. The airplanes, gates and skilled labor don’t disappear. Just the management that couldn’t keep it going. Free markets rock.
 
just for my education. had you remained at endeavour, you would be pretty much in the same situation ? (minus the prospect of being set for a mainline job once things pick up)
 
just for my education. had you remained at endeavour, you would be pretty much in the same situation ? (minus the prospect of being set for a mainline job once things pick up)
Not really. I would still be a captain and still have a job. The only difference is I wouldn’t be at Delta for another few years because no one is going to hire. I’d rather be furloughed and have a seniority number at Delta than stuck at a regional as a captain making good money for the next few years. Everyone is staying at their current position and airline for the next few years. Short term it would have been better to stay at Endeavor but long term it wouldn’t have been.
 
so higher up on the seniority list you wouldn't have been subject to furlough. do they just go from the bottom of each list ?
 
so higher up on the seniority list you wouldn't have been subject to furlough. do they just go from the bottom of each list ?
Yes. The cuts come from the bottom. Some junior captains got downgraded but as of now, no one is getting furloughed at Endeavor.
 
Yes. The cuts come from the bottom. Some junior captains got downgraded but as of now, no one is getting furloughed at Endeavor.

The only reason captains got downgraded at 9E was because they were basically street captains. So when a base closed, and positions were added in other bases, there were FO's who could hold those spots. Thus the street captains no longer had a captain spot they could hold. Sucks for them, but at the end of the day, they came over from a regional that's closing the doors in 4 weeks.
 
Isn't that how most unions work? Last in, first out.

I don't know. My brief experience with unionized employment was short and infuriating. I would think the cuts are made to ensure essential staffing while minimizing payroll cost.
 
I don't know. My brief experience with unionized employment was short and infuriating. I would think the cuts are made to ensure essential staffing while minimizing payroll cost.
Complete opposite of why a union exists. You're thinking like a business owner/ non-union manager! Unions aren't generally concerned about minimizing payroll costs, because that's their main selling point to union members (pushing for higher wages/ benefits). They also don't care much about essential staffing, but they do care about keeping as many members employed as possible, even when they are poor performers being highly paid (seniority trumps most everything). I'm not digging on the ALPA or other airline-associated unions necessarily, just speaking about unions in general. Unions don't exist to save the company money or align with management's best interests, they exist to extract as much money as possible for their members.
 
I don't know. My brief experience with unionized employment was short and infuriating. I would think the cuts are made to ensure essential staffing while minimizing payroll cost.

no, in fact it can be quite the opposite. The FIL of a former coworker spent over six months in training over the year following 9/11 due to equipment/seat shifts required by seniority.
 
The corporations are worried about this bug and somehow spreading it and getting sued, I guess.
They're worried about it putting the national and global economy on complete lockdown again.
 
Unions don't exist to save the company money or align with management's best interests, they exist to extract as much money as possible for their members.
Just like businesses don't exist to serve the best interests of their employees, but rather to exploit them as much as possible for as little cost as possible. There are other highly-industrialized countries where neither of these two things is the case and everyone prospers. Germany is an example. In this country, as with everything else, we live with the biggest extremes at either end. At least we did.
 
Sounds like you have what it takes, a great attitude. Sorry about the furlough, you will be back in your old gig before you know it, good luck. Flying the PC-12 should be a hoot.
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It was also really expensive to buy a ticket. Pick your poison. If we still had regulation the industry would have never been that big because most of the traveling public wouldn’t be able to afford a seat. I have bought airline tickets for less than the cost of fuel in my car. No way that happens in a regulated market. Frankly. I don’t give a crap if any or all of the airlines bust. There is always someone waiting in the wings to make their mark in industry. The airplanes, gates and skilled labor don’t disappear. Just the management that couldn’t keep it going. Free markets rock.

Again, I wasn't arguing against the free market or in favor of regulation. Just there was an upside to service for customers and assuring for employees.

Airline deregulation hasn't been any panacea. Airline deregulation isn't 100% awesome and 0% negative.
 
Holding back enough cash to weather what they’re currently facing, would have triggered a 40% tax penalty on that cash, annually.

Nobody is that stupid. Even an airline.

Try again. US businesses don’t hold cash in good times or bad, because they’re incentivized not to.

Plus unused cash doesn't make you any money.
 
I’m definitely a Milton Friedman free market minimal government type economic guy. However wasn’t the whole airline industry better when it had some government regulation?

The employees seemed happier, as a passenger the flight experience was better and there are a lot more options for smaller markets and more direct flights.

Deregulation allowed air travel to move from a luxury to a commodity which led to a lot of good and a lot of bad (see Passenger Shaming for the bad).
 
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