Ipad during IFR

Archimago

Archimago

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Archimago
I know I can't use the Ipad as an instrument for IFR flight. But I can use the maps, approaches etc of the EFB (in my case either FlyQ or Fltplan).
Can I legally use the groundspeed displayed in EFB to calculate wind direction for WCA in holds etc.
 
Archimago said:
I know I can't use the Ipad as an instrument for IFR flight. But I can use the maps, approaches etc of the EFB (in my case either FlyQ or Fltplan).
Can I legally use the groundspeed displayed in EFB to calculate wind direction for WCA in holds etc.
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You can use it for situational awareness. I’d say taking a better guess at wind speed and direction would fall under that category. It’s not like you’re substituting it for a required in-panel instrument.
 
Seems like a lot do work at a time the cockpit can be busy for a hold determination. I guess if you want to nail that first lap. I have a general idea and fly the first loop based on that and adjust for the consecutive lap(s). Usually will have it nailed but the second to third lap.
 
Post #2 answered the question. What’s the over under of how many other people comment?
 
I haven't officially started training yet, just brushing up on concepts before the meter starts running.
 
Archimago said:
I know I can't use the Ipad as an instrument for IFR flight.
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You can in an emergency. Some ADSB-In devices provide backup AHRS information which can save you if you lose several instrument panel indications for some reason. Just thought I'd share that in case you weren't already aware.

But I can use the maps, approaches etc of the EFB (in my case either FlyQ or Fltplan).
Can I legally use the groundspeed displayed in EFB to calculate wind direction for WCA in holds etc.
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I don't think you'd be likely to use the groundspeed to calculate wind direction specifically... you might use ADSB-In to check the most recent winds aloft measurement for the area. Your EFB might directly calculate the wind for you but I haven't seen that personally. Instead, if you have a GPS unit in the cockpit it can show you both your desired track and actual/current track. That makes it easy to figure out how to correct for the wind. Your EFB might do that too.

Where groundspeed will come in handy is if you are on an instrument approach and you need to estimate the appropriate vertical descent speed. The thumb rule for maintaining a 3 degree glideslope is to take your groundspeed, divide it by 2, and append a zero. For example, if your groundspeed is 80 knots, half is 40, so you need 400 feet per minute of descent to stay on most glideslopes. If your cockpit doesn't tell you your groundspeed you will probably want to read it off of your iPad.

Your cockpit may or may not provide you the groundspeed depending on the equipment and settings.
 
Is there anything in the plane that can provide ground speed? If not, use your iPad. It’s a reference to which you will provide corrections if it proves inaccurate.
 
Archimago said:
I know I can't use the Ipad as an instrument for IFR flight. But I can use the maps, approaches etc of the EFB (in my case either FlyQ or Fltplan).
Can I legally use the groundspeed displayed in EFB to calculate wind direction for WCA in holds etc.
Click to expand...

As long as you are flying the hold using an approved GPS or VOR etc.. you can use whatever you want to estimate the wind correction.
 
You can use the iPad for anything you want as long as you have a primary certified navigation system in the plane that is active.

...now you can't fly GPS on iPad if all you have in the panel is VOR...but it can be used for anything as an aid to "situational awareness"

iPad simply can not be your primary source of navigation or approaches...that needs to be from a certified source...but it most certainly can be used as a secondary source to confirm you primary navigation and provide additional data.
 
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Thanks all for the great feedback. Sounds like it would be handy for approaches but maybe overkill for holds
 
Will the iPad will be “failed” by the DPE on a instrument check ride?
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
Will the iPad will be “failed” by the DPE on a instrument check ride?
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Maybe. Maybe not. But consider that it might fail all by itself. That happened to a friend of mine. I was giving him an IPC and his iPad overheated just before the last approach.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
Will the iPad will be “failed” by the DPE on a instrument check ride?
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Mine was. I was warned by another pilot, so I had the paper tpp book, ripped the plate out, and clipped it to my "dead" tablet. I actually carry a backup tablet, but I didn't think he'd appreciate it if I pulled it out....
 
midlifeflyer said:
Maybe. Maybe not. But consider that it might fail all by itself. That happened to a friend of mine. I was giving him an IPC and his iPad overheated just before the last approach.
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Been there. Not an IPC, though. I grabbed my iPhone, which I carried as a backup and realized that I had never really practiced with it and didn't want to have to figure it out on an approach. Luckily it wasn't IMC and I wasn't established yet. I just canceled IFR. Lesson learned, though. Lessons, actually.
 
I've got to admit that, even with all of the obvious benefits of an efb on a tablet in the cockpit (there are MANY), I still miss paper charts and plates. Probably because they are what existed during my initial training, but I still feel as if I have a better "big picture" of the geographic area with a paper chart, and I've never had a chart overheat or require rebooting. Of course, that's only happened once with my tablet, but it was one more than paper. I'm still surprised that vfr flying without paper backup sectionals and an A/FD is allowed. I fly with a tablet, a backup tablet, and a backup on my phone, three backup battery banks.... And an expired sectional and A/FD just in case a renegade emp kills everything. Don't get me wrong.. I love what my efb (iFlyGPS and homebuilt stratux with ahrs and waas gps module) can do.
 
kjwalker01 said:
Been there. Not an IPC, though. I grabbed my iPhone, which I carried as a backup and realized that I had never really practiced with it and didn't want to have to figure it out on an approach. Luckily it wasn't IMC and I wasn't established yet. I just canceled IFR. Lesson learned, though. Lessons, actually.
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Lessons- yes. I fly with my backups periodically so that I'm current with them.

My friend normally flies with a backup. He didn't bring it for this session. So, his response was, like yours, "well, if I were visual I'd cancel IFR. I said, "That's not an option. It's IMC."

It's funny. I know some instructors create relatively unrealistic scenarios. Enough has happened on real flights to mess with them.
 
MuseChaser said:
I've got to admit that, even with all of the obvious benefits of an efb on a tablet in the cockpit (there are MANY), I still miss paper charts and plates. Probably because they are what existed during my initial training, but I still feel as if I have a better "big picture" of the geographic area with a paper chart, and I've never had a chart overheat or require rebooting. Of course, that's only happened once with my tablet, but it was one more than paper. I'm still surprised that vfr flying without paper backup sectionals and an A/FD is allowed. I fly with a tablet, a backup tablet, and a backup on my phone, three backup battery banks.... And an expired sectional and A/FD just in case a renegade emp kills everything. Don't get me wrong.. I love what my efb (iFlyGPS and homebuilt stratux with ahrs and waas gps module) can do.
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Maybe, maybe not. I got my instrument rating in 1992. The biggest deal technologically then was, I was able to TELNET to GTE DUAT on my modem, get my weather briefing and ene print out a flight plan on my dot matrix printer. Got my first iPad over 9 years ago and paper charts disappeared as soon as the one I had expired.

We all do what we are comfortable with and I tend to be media neutral. There's not there's no right or wrong. And no inherently "better" or "worse"

My favorite paper story. We did a club trip. My wife and I were paired with a pilot who was returning to flying after a 15 year break. He was very experienced in his past like and was working on getting his IFR skills back up to snuff. He asked if I minded if he donned the hood and treated it as an IFR flight. Not at all. Of course, he used paper. After all that's what he was used to and this was not the time to add something new.

Anyway, there he was doing all the right things ad doing it well. Folding and unfolding the Low Enroutes, briefing the approach. Did a great job. But..after we landed, my wife, who had watched all this from the back seat, whispered to me, "I understand why you love your iPad!":D
 
As a practical matter, I've learned that iPads ABSOLUTELY overheat easily in the part of the world where we live (Southwest USA).

For a checkride, I'd consider having:

  • A charging source readily available to show to DPE
  • A spare iPad (borrow the wife's?) to show to DPE
  • A paper copy of all the instrument approaches within 50 miles.
 
Rgbeard said:
As a practical matter, I've learned that iPads ABSOLUTELY overheat easily in the part of the world where we live (Southwest USA).

For a checkride, I'd consider having:

  • A charging source readily available to show to DPE
  • A spare iPad (borrow the wife's?) to show to DPE
  • A paper copy of all the instrument approaches within 50 miles.
Click to expand...

In some areas of the country the last item could be 100 pages or more
 
I have a IFR gps with moving maps, 2 Ipads, and counting my phone, 2 androids when I fly. I have efb's on all four, and I am still just a little uncomfortable without paper. If I know I am going to fly IMC, I will print out paper before i leave. It just makes me feel better knowing that I have paper if I need it. If nothing else, if the S**t hits the fan, at least I have something to wipe with. Please don't think I am obsessive, though......
 
MuseChaser said:
I...I've never had a chart overheat...
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053d6c75cfab33d3a57cdd856b280fb8.jpg
 
There are thousands of airliners flitting about every day that have barely a shred of paper on their flight decks, and they seem to do fine. My work airplane has two iPads and a built in chart server. When I fly for fun, I have my iPad and a cell phone with charts on it.
 
I know it’s not ideal, but how much do we need a chart for ILS/LPV approaches.
You don’t need to know any altitudes (just use airport altitude + 250’ for your miss)
ATC almost always vectors you unless you request full approach.
The certified box has the appropriate frequencies and waypoints.

Disclaimer: I’m not recommending this as normal practice, but if you have total EFB failure(s), that doesn’t mean you are totally blinded but what’s required for an approach.
 
My examiner didn't fail my iPad but she had me disable location and ownship prior to the flight, so it was effectively charts only.
 
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jayhawk74 said:
I heard of a DPE that "failed" the Ipad during an instrument checkride. The examinee then took out an out a mini Ipad which the DPE "failed". When the examinee took out a cell phone the DPE said I give up.
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Which, when it comes down to it, is what "what will you do if it fails" is all about. But I think the DPE gave up too easily. He could have said the failure was a bug in the EFB app itself causing it to shut down. I have had that happen on an IFR flight.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
I know it’s not ideal, but how much do we need a chart for ILS/LPV approaches.
You don’t need to know any altitudes (just use airport altitude + 250’ for your miss)
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Oops. I think your "I don't need to know altitudes" 250 might put you in a wee bit of trouble.

upload_2020-9-5_8-47-12.png

Disclaimer: I’m not recommending this as normal practice, but if you have total EFB failure(s), that doesn’t mean you are totally blinded but what’s required for an approach.
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That is absolutely true but I wouldn't be making up my own MDA/DA.
 
midlifeflyer said:
That is absolutely true but I wouldn't be making up my own MDA/DA.
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Agreed, but when the feces hits the rotating air moving device, if you have a functional COM, ATC can brief the approach for you, including telling you the minimums.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
I knew someone would find an exception...I used 250 because that looks like the generic limit here on the flatlands.
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Is this flatland enough for you? ;) It;s the airport that chart segment is from.
upload_2020-9-5_9-10-56.png

Finding an exception to this one is not hard. Ever notice the Instrument ACS allows LPV approaches with a DA below 300 AGL to be counted as precision and those with a DA above 300 AL be counted as nonprecision? There's a reason.
 
No LOC minimums, no Circling minimums, and better than VFR minimums.

Screenshot_20200905-080529_Pilot.jpg
 
smv said:
Agreed, but when the feces hits the rotating air moving device, if you have a functional COM, ATC can brief the approach for you, including telling you the minimums.
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:yeahthat:
Ah! I was waiting for someone to say that!
 
midlifeflyer said:
Is this flatland enough for you? ;) It;s the airport that chart segment is from.
View attachment 89574

Finding an exception to this one is not hard. Ever notice the Instrument ACS allows LPV approaches with a DA below 300 AGL to be counted as precision and those with a DA above 300 AL be counted as nonprecision? There's a reason.
Click to expand...

It’s 2020 ;-) let’s look closely via digital version, you’ll see it’s surrounded by hills, the other runway doesn’t even have an LPV.
9cf2d5ed6b152fe75045fd2edc453f18.jpg



Tom
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
It’s 2020 ;-) let’s look closely via digital version, you’ll see it’s surrounded by hills, the other runway doesn’t even have an LPV.

Tom
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I guess having previously lived in Colorado for 20 years, my definition of "flatland" is slightly different than yours :D
 
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