VFR on top with PPL

jason gula said:
Curious on some opinions here. I have a single engine Cherokee and a few situations arose where we departed VFR and upon turning in course we encountered an overcast cloud layer below us for a good part of the flight until our destination. Curious what other pilots think about it as we had the situation occur today and I wasn’t comfortable with it as our destination was 100 miles away and all airports enroute were covered in.
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I suggest you get with a CFI for a review for weather theory and services.
 
jkgoblue said:
How about flying along VFR and seeing a layer ahead at say 3,000 feet. Looks to be about 1000 feet thick and miles wide. Still have 100 miles to go. Reporting scattered along the route ahead. Do you go above it or below it?
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If the trend is stable or improving then I may go over. I'm not doing a 100 + mile flight under 3000 feet.
 
With airports below in VMC and enough fuel to turn around and go back to where the clouds closed up, and forecasts for scattered or better at destination. I do it just about every weekend.
 
Clip4 said:
I suggest you get with a CFI for a review for weather theory and services.
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Not quite sure how a CFI can help on this one. He gonna tell me the enroute weather even though the different reporting stations/briefer can only provide what they see on a computer screen or directly above them? I’m guessing every time you flew the weather was EXACTLY as forecasted. In this example, since I need to explain myself, departure was “sky is clear”. Destination forecast was few clouds. Weather brief indicated nothing but VMC enroute. I reviewed the satellite/weather maps and nothing. Oddly enough 10 minutes turning on course, a large widespread overcast area was approaching below us, with no holes or end in sight. Explain how A CFI helps me now?
 
MauleSkinner said:
Seems pretty limiting, but whatever you’re comfortable with.
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You're right it is limiting, that's the whole point of good ADM and personal limits. I don't live in flatland. 3000 feet ceilings means obscured mountains around these parts.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Ignoring Parts 91, 121, & 135 is usually best. ;)
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Apparently you missed the context. AIM instead of Google. But, if you have a reference for "VFR over the top" in any of those regulations you cite, please point me in the right direction.
:rolleyes:
 
Bender Aviation said:
You're right it is limiting, that's the whole point of good ADM and personal limits. I don't live in flatland. 3000 feet ceilings means obscured mountains around these parts.
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Context is everything. That’s why I don’t fault pilots for ignoring the advice of others...too many people only give half the story.
 
I found it in Part 1. Now, my aviation education is complete! :rolleyes:
 
aterpster said:
That's interesting. Do you know where "over the top" is defined?
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FAR 1.1

VFR over-the-top, with respect to the operation of aircraft, means the operation of an aircraft
over-the-top under VFR when it is not being operated on an IFR flight plan.
 
apology accepted.

and thanks @MauleSkinner , I don't have time for dooshbaggery so I wasn't spending another minute on the topic.
 
aterpster said:
I found it in Part 1. Now, my aviation education is complete! :rolleyes:
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So based on the use of the word “ceiling” in that definition, would you say it’s not “over the top” if it’s anything less than “broken”.? (Do they use “thin broken” anymore?)
 
luvflyin said:
FAR 1.1

VFR over-the-top, with respect to the operation of aircraft, means the operation of an aircraft
over-the-top under VFR when it is not being operated on an IFR flight plan.
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That’s “VFR over the top”. “Over the top” is up in the O’s. ;)
 
MauleSkinner said:
So based on the use of the word “ceiling” in that definition, would you say it’s not “over the top” if it’s anything less than “broken”.? (Do they use “thin broken” anymore?)
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Don’t look like it. Partial, as in ‘partially obscured’ is gone to. Vertical Visibility is used now. If it’s less than Broken, it isn’t a ceiling
 
Palmpilot said:
In a Cherokee?
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He posted those references to show my "over the top" occurs in the regs. None of those three regs apply to a Cherokee except perhaps one operated under Part 135.

"Over the top" was never part of my aviation career.
 
Palmpilot said:
In a Cherokee?
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I’ve done VFR Over the top in a Cherokee under the 135 regs.

FWIW, I’ve also done it in a Citation under 91.507. Found a hole and ran the scud (or at least what a lot of people would consider scud running) for the last 50 miles or so.
 
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It's perfectly safe and boring as long as you have a way down on the other end. Sometimes those holes close on people. I've done it a few times to get somewhere and while it was indeed boring and safe I decided eventually it wouldn't be and I just got an instrument rating.

Even if you prefer to keep flying around under VFR that rating is a game changer. If you're IFR capable and current and do VFR on top then get stuck it's no big deal- call ATC, ask for a pop-up clearance, descend through the clouds and either land IFR or cancel.
 
jason gula said:
Not quite sure how a CFI can help on this one. I’m guessing every time you flew the weather was EXACTLY as forecasted. In this example, since I need to explain myself, departure was “sky is clear”. Destination forecast was few clouds. Weather brief indicated nothing but VMC enroute. I reviewed the satellite/weather maps and nothing. Oddly enough 10 minutes turning on course, a large widespread overcast area was approaching below us, with no holes or end in sight. Explain how A CFI helps me now?
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I think he's baiting you ... everyone will get un-forecast crappola at some time or another. I had an Austin to El Paso that was supposed to be easy VFR, with fog dissipating over a small area half way (it lifted instead of burning off). So carry a crap load of fuel and know/figure where the TRUE VFR is if needed (that trip was low over-cast for quite some time).
 
jason gula said:
Not quite sure how a CFI can help on this one. He gonna tell me the enroute weather even though the different reporting stations/briefer can only provide what they see on a computer screen or directly above them? I’m guessing every time you flew the weather was EXACTLY as forecasted. In this example, since I need to explain myself, departure was “sky is clear”. Destination forecast was few clouds. Weather brief indicated nothing but VMC enroute. I reviewed the satellite/weather maps and nothing. Oddly enough 10 minutes turning on course, a large widespread overcast area was approaching below us, with no holes or end in sight. Explain how A CFI helps me now?
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No, every time I have flown the weather was not as forecast. Many times I know the weather will not be as forecast on an XC before I took off. Having a better understanding of weather theory, regional weather patterns and how to properly use the weather service products will help you. A low time CFI with little XC time isn’t the CFI you want.
 
The local TAFs have been terrible lately. A quick glance at the sky is a better predictor of conditions. Twice recently I’ve taken off for local training flights VFR with TAFs predicting improving conditions and had to recover IFR. If nothing else, it’s an incentive to be instrument rated.
 
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