IFR Instructions Read-Back

SoCal 182 Driver

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SoCal 182 Driver
Friends - IFR student here. I would appreciate some advice.

I'm having a difficult time writing fast enough to copy IFR departure instructions. I know most pilots have their own version of shorthand to jot down instructions, but I can't seem to develop something that works for me, and is abbreviated enough so I can jot everything down quickly and still be able to read my notes sufficiently for read-back.

Can anyone give me some advice or suggestions on how I can develop a readable shorthand that will work for me?

Thank you!
 
have no idea what will work for you, but at my home field I'll pre write "cleared to dest via", like 'CLD CRE via', meaning cleared to CRE, or where ever I'm going. since at my home field I know I'm getting the knights2 dept, I'll write that as well, so 'CLD CRE via KNI2' is already written down before I even call 'em up. if they don't give me kni2 I can cross it off, and obviously if ur somewhere unfamiliar, u may not do that or may have looked up what dp u might get. I'll write 2k/7k10, where the 10 is superscript meaning 7k' in 10 minutes. 'CM' for climb/maintain, > or < with lines above or below for 'at or above/at or below' or u can use a line above or below the # they give u (like u see on app plates). D for direct, AF for as filed. I'm sure none of these are original but it's what's worked for me so far.
 
Sounds like a good ground lesson. Have your CFII bark instructions for you to readback. If you're getting it, you're getting it. Otherwise you'll get clues.

My CFII hates the CRAFT method (written vertically) because it takes 5 lines that you can put in a single line with practice. Less use of your note paper space.

Like all your flying: Practice.

Almost forgot... you can read common clearances on SkyVector or on Flight Aware in shorthand... so practice that from your armchair to see if you a) understand everything in it, b) know how you'd read it back, and c) set up your stuffs to fly it.
 
You'll get it. Like Ravioli said, just a matter of practice until the flow becomes familiar. You're probably already better than this guy....

 
Whether you use CRAFT or some other method to write stuff down, most of the information you should be able to right down in advance. Then you are just confirming what is written or making quick edits.

Cleared to will likely be your destination.
Route write down what you filed. It may change, but if not you already have it written down or can edit.
Altitude, again what you filed. May get an intermediate altitude. Don't write out all the zeros, unneeded information.
Departure freq, usually easy to find.
Transponder, only thing you can't predict. 4 digit number.
 
You develop a shorthand / condensed way to write it that you can read / understand over time. Most instructors can show you their method but everyone ends up doing it somewhat differently.

An example might be my oddity that I like which uses a line above or below a number or both to indicate an altitude and whether or not it’s restricted above or below (mostly useful in cruise flight not departure), but there is always a better/faster way for everything.

Another old radio guy trick is don’t mix copying and reading back with “comprehending”. Just copy and read back. Then pause and truly look over what your clearance is and make decisions about it. Is it sane? Can the aircraft do it performance-wise? Etc. Plenty of time after the read back to not be in a rush afterward usually.

And then always be ready for the minor heading or altitude amendments often given right at the “cleared for takeoff” call. That one surprises many at first. Not ready to copy, but if they had the pad and pencil out because they’re copying whatever comes including noting the takeoff time... they’re prepared to nab the change.

And lastly — if it’s coming too fast just ask for a slower repeat. Controller’s here get in the habit of talking to two pilot pro crews with a person dedicated to copying and reading back and stuffing the new clearance into the FMS or GPS while they other pilot taxis — and single pilot is a higher workload. They’ll give you whatever time you need.
 
First you need to listen to enough clearances to realize they all came in the same format. I used to write CRAFT with each letter on a subsequent line, but it's usually not required.

CLEARED TO PODUNK AIRPORT no need to write this down, I should be able to remember where I'm going GORDONSVILLE FLAT ROCK V3 RALIEGH SANDHILLS DIRECT ok we'd love AS FILED but sometimes that doesn't happen. This you have no choice but to copy and you might not get it the first time if you aren't familiar with the navaids. MAINTAIN 3000 EXPECT 7000 10 MINUTES AFTER DEPARTURE again the expect altitude is usually what you asked for, but write these down. It's always INITIAL EXPECT EVENTUAL IN SOME NUMBER of minutes. Altitudes are always thousands, so you don't need to write more than a few numbers for this DEPARTURE FREQUENCY 126.1 you probably have an idea what this should be if you're familiar with the departure airport SQUAWK 4201

So what I've written is GVE FAK V3 RDU SDZ 30 E 70 +10 126.1 4201

If they give you navaids you don't recognize (how SANDHILLS becomes SDZ for instance) don't hesitate to ask.

The fun ones are the ones with SIDS. A proper IAD departure for light planes is something like:

Navion 5327K is cleared to Statesville Airport via CAPITAL ONE HANEY SQUAWK 3201

The CAPITAL ONE SID contains the route (expect RV to HANEY / FILED route), the altitude is 3000 and expect your filed altitude ten minutes afterward) and the departure frequency 126.65.

The other fun one was I was coming back from HKY to CJR. Somewhere around Roanoake approach says "I have a new route for you, advise when ready to copy." I pick up my pencil and pad and say "ready." "N5327K is cleared direct Culpeper."
Did I need to copy that? Straight to the destination?


 
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Cleared to will nearly always be your destination
Route is the hard one.. Like eman said there might be some standard there, but you can also get hint when you file. I use 1800wxbrief and I get a text message with a revised route or the one I filed
Altitude, I just prefill a _____ X______ in _____ so 3,000 expect 6,000 in 10 min..
Frequency can be pre-filled out by looking at the AFD or any approach plate for that airport
Squawk is just 4 numbers.

Getting the noise out by pre-filling out stuff will help you focus on what is usually the hard part, the route. The other thing is repetition is your friend. Listen to some of the good youtube guys and their clearances just to know what to expect. I found it really hard at first, now it's fairly easy.

The hard one for me is getting cleared for an approach. Turn right to 200, cross XXX at or above 3,000, cleared for the RNAV 36 approach then if they want to have me really forget the stuff in the beginning, give me the wind and altimeter setting for the airport.. by the time they get there, I've usually forgotten the heading they want me to fly and usually also the runway number (even though it's on the approach plate right in front of me.. Brain freeze. I assume that will come with time and repetition as well
 
the point of suggesting to write down 'cleared to' ahead of time, although kind of a waste of time since ron answered and he is always right and above what everyone else says, is because he is a N E W instrument student, not a 20+year seasoned IFR veteran. in my opinion, writing it down and reading it as ATC is giving you the route is to make it easier to 'get in the grove' of listening to, copying down, and understanding the route given. try it with a regular sentence. have someone read a sentence to you and start copying down words half way thru the sentence. then try it where u write the first coupl'a words down ahead, then have them read the sentence and start writing down words at the same point. one, in my opinion, is easier than the other.

agreed, no NEED to write it down.
 
You could also tell them to slow down. Depending on how busy they are, they may have to fire off a bunch of clearances to different aircraft. It never hurts to ask to repeat slowly. Student pilot doesn’t have to be just for pre solo students. Go on LiveATC and listen to the clearance delivery of a busy class C or D airport. Practice copying down clearances.
 
Friends - IFR student here. I would appreciate some advice.

I'm having a difficult time writing fast enough to copy IFR departure instructions. I know most pilots have their own version of shorthand to jot down instructions, but I can't seem to develop something that works for me, and is abbreviated enough so I can jot everything down quickly and still be able to read my notes sufficiently for read-back.

Can anyone give me some advice or suggestions on how I can develop a readable shorthand that will work for me?

Thank you!


Here's some I use
KABC af for Cleared to ABC airport then as filed
published departure procedures available I'll already be familiar with so can write them down pretty quick, like Canby 2 for the CANBY TWO
RH for runway heading
TL090 for turn left heading
TR270 for turn right heading
4000/90 10< for maintain four thousand, expect nine thousand 10 minutes after departure. The 2 digit altitude is a reminder it's the expected
23.9 for departure control frequency 123.9. Just the numbers, you'll never get more than one frequency
3456 for squawk 3456

Hang in there. You'll come up with something that works for you.
 
Instructions and clearances are two different things. Lots of posts on how to copy a clearance. But you asked about instructions. The biggest problem I see with people trying to copy down instructions is they try to copy it all down. You only need to copy down what you need to do. Not things like wind direction, position, other traffic. Part of it is just experience after doing it a bit you figure out they always tell you about the same thing at the same times, so you will pretty much know what they are going to say before they say it.
Luvflyin’s post above is an excellent example of just writing down the things you need to read back and remember.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Depending on experience and whether or not you have warm fuzzies from not having it all on paper, many pilots skip writing and enter or set things directly also.

One can debate the wisdom of it, but if I have a heading bug, a new heading is going there first instead of writing three numbers down. Same with transponder codes. Altimeter setting.

Frequencies... maybe. That one is sometimes easy to get caught in an entry error but roughly the same number of button presses as the transponder and radios have the flip flop these days unlike the stuff I first flew which maybe didn’t even have two Comm radios for a poor man’s flip flop to get back to the previous controller if you botched it. This one you have to decide your equipment capability and general button mashing skill set level. And maybe even frequency congestion. Don’t want to fight to get a word in on a just busy previous frequency.

But GENERALLY single pilot, and not behind things, I try to get numbers straight into the boxes.

Exception is probably ROUTE changes almost always unless it’s a “cleared direct” which is two button presses on my modern GPS. Otherwise I want it written and then thinking about it a little for situational awareness as I’m entering it.

Other things just for discussion right now to show different techniques... someone said they write direction of turn down. I don’t UNLESS it’s a “wrong way” turn. If I’m flying 090 and the new heading is 110, right is “obvious” but my brain will trigger on a “left turn heading 110”... okay why are we making a circle here??

But that stuff all comes with time and practice and still may not be “best practice” but can significantly lower single pilot workload quite a bit.

Someone else was talking about approach clearances. Change thinking a bit on those they become easier. The wind and altimeter? You should already have those usually. It’s a double check. No need to write or dwell on it unless they changed and just fix the altimeter if it did. The heading, bug it or turn to it and done. Mental check that it’s really an intercept heading that makes sense but you’ve already briefed the approach (unless they just changed approaches on you) by now and know the final approach course heading. The approach name again is a double check at this point, not new info. Already briefed and you’re just making sure at this transmission that nothing changed. No need to write. Look at your plate and confirm, done.

That leaves the fix and altitude restrictions and a quick check of the vertical plan form to see how you’re getting from that ATC assigned altitude on to the altitudes listed on the approach and knowing when you’ll be established enough to do so. Often the altitude given will match the approach, but if not it’s a quick check to see when you are going to change altitude and why ahead. You can write that last one and I usually do, but in that close you usually won’t be there for very long.

After that it’s established and fly the approach as briefed already.

Again your mileage and technique may vary. Single pilot I try not to write if I can DO, but two pilot if I’m not flying I’m writing.

Teaching... generally teach to write at first just to get the pilot truly listening to copy but not necessarily comprehend at first but then show aircraft and panel specific techniques and discuss the above kinds of things on the ground during debrief when they’re not totally overloaded.

Usually somewhere along the way for most people who like to write is the day they write it and then DON’T do it, and that’s a serious mistake that has to be caught and corrected immediately. If you got a right turn and missed the heading and the frequency gets jammed up by some idiot who didn’t listen, that controller still needs you starting that right turn...

Hope that helps seeing the mental game of when you’re single pilot and things get busy. You get used to the form and flow of it with practice.
 
If they read too fast, I punish them by making them read it again. Not really, but it's real important that you understand the route and read it back correctly. All the posts before me are great.

The only thing I have to add, and someone already mentioned it, is to not try to understand it as they read it, just write it down. If you don't get it all, read back what you got, saying something like I missed this one, but go the end. When you are done they will fill in the blanks and correct you if you got something wrong.

I use the CRAFT scratch pad in FF, works great for me.

I got my ticket almost 2 years ago, and I worried about this too, but as you get further along there is nothing to it. Never be afraid to question them or ask them to slow down. Also, go over the routing and make sure it makes sense, if it doesn't call them back. You need to do all this stuff without instructor prompting ( but it's ok to question your instructor about it first versus the controller when you are just starting to learn. But when you are alone, it's just you and the controller, don't be afraid to ask even if it's a 20 minutes after you read it back, they want you to get it right too.)

To Denverpilot's point about heading and altitude changes on take off, by all means, keep a pencil handy to write them down. But if you are flying an airplane with an altitude bug and heading bug, I just dial it in there, without writing it down, it works great. Never rush when flying IFR. Ask for more time if you need it.
 
There are other things I write down. Any time I have a letter with a circle that is the ATIS information letter.
 
For clearances I use CRAFT but prefill in stuff and I use a dash for as filed.
"acey 3919 cleared to the george herbert walker bush intergalactic spaceport(actual thing a guy at tys says sometimes) as filed on departure climb and maintain 6 thousand expect 360 ten minutes after departure, departure frequency 123.9, squawk 4321
I'll write down
C----
R----
A 6 36
F 23.9 (probably already wrote down)
T 4321
I'll read back "cleared houston as filed 6 thousand expect 360 ten min after departure 123.9 squawking 4321 acey 3919"

For stuff in the air like an approach clearance hes just going to tell you stuff you already know.
ACEY 4319 left turn heading 110 maintain 3000 till established cleared for the ILS 8L 210 to flibz contact tower at 120.72
He didn't tell me anything I didn't know. I know I'm going to get a 30 degree intercept, I know i'm at 3k which is the next two altitudes on the approach, I know what approach I'm doing, and I'm at 210kts in line with other aircraft at 210 kts and I know towers frequency.
Pull stuff out and put it into mental buckets even if they tell you a bunch of stuff. 110, 3000, cleared, 210. Take those buckets of info and fill in the blank. Every readback will be Turn ___ Maintain___ till established cleared ___ (probably also includes)contact tower at ___

Same for something like a full route clearance "cleared to KIAH via radar vectors Bro, j25 CRP for the tejas4 arrival climb and maintain 15 thousand expect 270 ten minutes after departure departure frequency 119.9 squawk 2364
I'm sitting there thinking don't care, don't, care ooo heres something ---- br 25 cp te4 15 270 2364 is what i'll write down.
 
I don't write down my destination. I know that. If they give me a difference clearance limit then I write that.

If there are the possibility of more than one departure, I write down all of the ones I think might be given. When the clearance is read, I either cross out the one(s) I didn't get or underline the one I did.

If I think they are likely to to read routing, instead of 'as filed', I write out the routing I'm expecting. When the clearance is read, I underline everything that they read, cross out what they don't, the write in anything new I didn't expect. Less writing means I don't get as far behind.

For altitude is use the following format for 'maintain 2,500', expect 8,000 ten minutes after departure. "25/80" then with the "10" in superscript (which I can't get the forum to do at the moment) so it looks like it's 80 to the power of 10. Very simple and quick to write.

I write the departure frequency and squawk without any labels or codes. "119.2 4515" is pretty obvious.

At a busy and/or unfamiliar airport, listen to the clearance delivery frequency for a few minutes before you call. You'll often get a good idea of what you'll get based on what other pilots are getting.
 
Sounds like a good ground lesson. Have your CFII bark instructions for you to readback. If you're getting it, you're getting it. Otherwise you'll get clues.

I'm at the point in my training where my instructor thinks I should be able to do this easily, but then when I do the read-back he always finds a nit to pick. :incazzato: Too many picked nits (and not some "atta-boys" now and then) in training gets discouraging after awhile. :mad2:
 
There are some good suggestions here. Thanks everyone. I really appreciate your input.
 
I'm at the point in my training where my instructor thinks I should be able to do this easily, but then when I do the read-back he always finds a nit to pick. :incazzato: Too many picked nits (and not some "atta-boys" now and then) in training gets discouraging after awhile. :mad2:

Yeah, I bet that helps.... tell him to be quiet, you've got this.
 
When I have a new clearance delivery trainee who wants to be cool and read the clearance really fast, I grab another clearance and tell him to let me know when HE'S/SHE'S ready to copy a clearance. He'll/She'll grab a pen and tell me that they're ready. I read it at the same speed they did to the pilot and then have them read it back to me.

I've never failed at getting my point across on the first try. It may sound cool to read it fast but it isn't cool to have to read it again.
 
When I have a new clearance delivery trainee who wants to be cool and read the clearance really fast, I grab another clearance and tell him to let me know when HE'S/SHE'S ready to copy a clearance. He'll/She'll grab a pen and tell me that they're ready. I read it at the same speed they did to the pilot and then have them read it back to me.

I've never failed at getting my point across on the first try. It may sound cool to read it fast but it isn't cool to have to read it again.

The hero we didn’t know we had. :)
 
I think you need to think about writing down the info beforehand that you already know.
You know your destination
You know your departure frequency
You probably know your final altitude. You can have all that stuff already down
I use CRAFT. I have everything written sans what I can’t know- transponder frequency.
if it’s a short route I won’t write it in
But for longer ones I have it already down. Sure it changes at times. But not often the whole damn thing.
Once you get a better of the sound of all the fixes and waypoints you are flying you can hear it better.
 
This is what the AIM says.

"4-4-7. Pilot Responsibility upon Clearance Issuance
a. Record ATC clearance. When conducting an IFR operation, make a written record of your clearance. The specified conditions which are a part of your air traffic clearance may be somewhat different from those included in your flight plan. Additionally, ATC may find it necessary to ADD conditions, such as particular departure route. The very fact that ATC specifies different or additional conditions means that other aircraft are involved in the traffic situation.

b. ATC Clearance/Instruction Readback. Pilots of airborne aircraft should read back those parts of ATC clearances and instructions containing altitude assignments, vectors, or runway assignments as a means of mutual verification. The read back of the "numbers" serves as a double check between pilots and controllers and reduces the kinds of communications errors that occur when a number is either "misheard" or is incorrect.

1. Include the aircraft identification in all readbacks and acknowledgments. This aids controllers in determining that the correct aircraft received the clearance or instruction. The requirement to include aircraft identification in all readbacks and acknowledgements becomes more important as frequency congestion increases and when aircraft with similar call signs are on the same frequency."

Note that word-for-word repetition is not required. I have heard airline pilots say "We'll do all that."

Bob Gardner
 
I used to take them down to the 6th floor where the recorders are and have them listen to themselves and copy the clearance...
Take 'em out in the yard and have them copy it while standing next to a lawn mower.
 
I actually have a simple form I printed and keep copies of in my flight gear and in my clipboard. Just full in the expected blanks. No muss, no fuss. It's overkill but simple. Plenty of extra room for copying amended clearances.
 
If you remember back to your student pilot days, all of the radio communication was like a foreign language. One way to learn a foreign language is to immerse yourself in it. So listen to ATC give clearances at a reasonably busy airport near you. LiveATC has clearance delivery frequencies for the busier airports. For my local airport, the same frequency is often used by the controllers for ground and tower, so listening when there are lots of airline departures gets you familiar with the local fixes and each controller’s phrasing.
 
The hard one for me is getting cleared for an approach. Turn right to 200, cross XXX at or above 3,000, cleared for the RNAV 36 approach then if they want to have me really forget the stuff in the beginning, give me the wind and altimeter setting for the airport.. by the time they get there, I've usually forgotten the heading they want me to fly and usually also the runway number (even though it's on the approach plate right in front of me.. Brain freeze.
This is me, exactly.
 
This is me, exactly.

I hear u, but understand that 1) those instructions are generally in the same format so it's something I'd 'think' you'd get used to pretty quickly, and 2) you should already be prepared for most of the stuff they're telling you......you should know what approach you're doing so that info isn't new, you should have already briefed your approach so you should know what altitude restriction to expect..... also, I'm 'typically' flying in HDG mode by that point so as soon as they say right turn 200 I'm already spinning the heading bug, so it's almost as if I've written it down. but I'm no pro AT ALL so wtf do I know.
 
Personally love CRAFT-V (void time as I operate from uncontrolled field) format and pre fill in as much as possible including my filed or expected routing then it is just a game of Mad Libs for the few bits of new information or make edits.

Also get on the habit of just being a copy robot as it comes. Hear but do not listen...meaning do not try and process the information as it comes rapid fire, just copy THEN process after read back otherwise you mind starts going off on thinking about the clearance and that is when you start missing thing and get behind.
 
Also get on the habit of just being a copy robot as it comes. Hear but do not listen...meaning do not try and process the information as it comes rapid fire, just copy THEN process after read back otherwise you mind starts going off on thinking about the clearance and that is when you start missing thing and get behind.
This. The related piece is for those en route and approach clearances where the OP is concerned about forgetting the details of the instruction after doing or listening to something else. I think a lot of CFIIs do their students a bit of a disservice. We tend to know the approaches, the routes, and the instructions we are 90% likely to hear. So we sit there with no charts and write nothing down, and our students get the impression that's what "good" IFR pilots do.

it's not. Don't be ashamed to write things down.

(I'm "blessed" with a difficulty in retaining numbers. I did a flight last week where I asked the controller to repeat a frequency four times before I got it right!)
 
Friends - IFR student here. I would appreciate some advice.

I'm having a difficult time writing fast enough to copy IFR departure instructions. I know most pilots have their own version of shorthand to jot down instructions, but I can't seem to develop something that works for me, and is abbreviated enough so I can jot everything down quickly and still be able to read my notes sufficiently for read-back.

Can anyone give me some advice or suggestions on how I can develop a readable shorthand that will work for me?

Thank you!
There's a certain cadence to it. I wrote up a little cheat sheet to use that helped a ton, it was a fill in the blank mad libs style thing.. it's always going to have the same flow

What airport are you cleared to?

How are you departing (via runway heading, procedure, or something else)

What route

What altitudes and when

Frequency

Squawk


.. another "trick" (if you want to call it that) is abbreviating as much as you can. For something like "3,000 then expect one zero thousand one zero minutes after" I just write a 3 with an arrow pointing to a 10^10 (10 to the power of 10). Also there's no shame in writing down as much of it as you can and then reading back what you got and telling them you missed the rest

Something that I still sometimes have trouble with are departure procedures at new or unfamiliar airports or pronunciations of navaids that are not logical, like "San Marcus VORTAC" is abbreviated as "RZS" .. go figure
 
The hard one for me is getting cleared for an approach. Turn right to 200, cross XXX at or above 3,000, cleared for the RNAV 36 approach
Do you have to actually read all that back verbatim? I've heard some remarkably brief redbacks from pilots for things like this that are little more than "okay"

"Two zero zero, three thousand at xx, cleared rnav 36"
 
PS.. one of my best memories of this is with one of the other pilots here. We were taxiing for departure at Burbank, I was left seat and tower asked to advise when ready to copy.

The fellow pilot said ready to copy from the right seat only to have the pen spectacularly disassemble itself pretty much right at "cleared to xx"

For some reason this was the funniest thing to me, I was in tears. Yes they were asked to repeat it all
 
Do you have to actually read all that back verbatim? I've heard some remarkably brief redbacks from pilots for things like this that are little more than "okay"

"Two zero zero, three thousand at xx, cleared rnav 36"
It's not reading it back, but actually remembering it. I have a hard time remembering a pile of different numbers. The other piece is anticipating that this is going to be the clearance. Usually starts with NXXX you are two miles from widget, fly heading 200, cross widget at 3,000, cleared rnav 36, report established. I just need to anticipate when they tell me my position that the next thing will be the clearance and really the only potential new information is the heading.

At least for me, I really focused on initial clearances and less on approach clearances, so need to get better.
 
Do you have to actually read all that back verbatim? I've heard some remarkably brief redbacks from pilots for things like this that are little more than "okay"

"Two zero zero, three thousand at xx, cleared rnav 36"
That's how I do it, short and sweet, don't forget your call sign.

My first instructor always wanted short and sweet on the radio. For taxi' " xxx ground, Cessna xxx, west ramp, delta, taxi." Calling in to land, "xxx tower, Cessna xxx, 10 southwest, foxtrot, land" I try to do this with all calls.
 
That's how I do it, short and sweet, don't forget your call sign.

My first instructor always wanted short and sweet on the radio. For taxi' " xxx ground, Cessna xxx, west ramp, delta, taxi." Calling in to land, "xxx tower, Cessna xxx, 10 southwest, foxtrot, land" I try to do this with all calls.

My instructor is also of the "less is more" philosophy. I tend to say "good morning" or "good afternoon" on the first contact of the day with Ground and then Tower at my home airport. He's told me to drop that.
 
It's not reading it back, but actually remembering it. I have a hard time remembering a pile of different numbers. The other piece is anticipating that this is going to be the clearance. Usually starts with NXXX you are two miles from widget, fly heading 200, cross widget at 3,000, cleared rnav 36, report established. I just need to anticipate when they tell me my position that the next thing will be the clearance and really the only potential new information is the heading.

At least for me, I really focused on initial clearances and less on approach clearances, so need to get better.

There's info there that you just don't care about. I would read that back, "Two, zero, zero, 3000 until widget, cleared rnav 36, report established, NXXXX"
 
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