Hours for a C182 annual

Tom-D said:
99% of what you speak is maintenance not inspection
show where a AD search is a on the items to be preformed in 43-D
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My last annual there was a mandated dye penetrate inspection, a buddy has a mandatory eddy current prop inspection; both directed by AD. My last annual also had low cylinder compression necessitating addition inspection.

The disconnect for me in the discussion is separating the puritanical view of 43-D, and what's needed to complete a proper annual.

Tom-D said:
My A&Ps have already been thru the aircraft IAW the 43-D list prior to my inspection, I should not find any discrepancies. If I do, they have failed their customers.
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I suppose your A&P's would have done other prep work like performing the dye penetrate test and you inspect the proper application of dye and check for cracks.

But were drifting off topic which was how many hours for an annual? Sounds like in Tom's shop it's his inspection time plus his A&P's preparing the aircraft for inspection and resolving airworthiness squawks.
 
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Tom-D said:
My A&Ps have already been thru the aircraft IAW the 43-D list prior to my inspection, I should not find any discrepancies. If I do, they have failed their customers.
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So you are delegating your IA authority to a non IA?
 
NordicDave said:
My last annual there was a mandated dye penetrate inspection, a buddy has a mandatory eddy current prop inspection; both directed by AD. My last annual also had low cylinder compression necessitating addition inspection.

The disconnect for me in the discussion is separating the puritanical view of 43-D, and what's needed to complete a proper annual.



I suppose your A&P's would have done other prep work like performing the dye penetrate test and you inspect the proper application of dye and check for cracks.
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Hopefully
FAR 43-D does not dictate that a differential compression test be done.
it states
(3) Internal engine—for cylinder compression and for metal particles or foreign matter on screens and sump drain plugs. If there is weak cylinder compression, for improper internal condition and improper internal tolerances.

There are other ways to inspect for compression.
 
SloRoam said:
I have seen costs typically around 1-2k total for an annual.
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This is no surprise, just because the A&P-IA is doing other things and grouping the work as an annual.
 
NordicDave said:
I suppose your A&P's would have done other prep work like performing the dye penetrate test and you inspect the proper application of dye and check for cracks.
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many times I see that work entered as a work order, and not part of the annual. but that is just paperwork. :)
 
My humble apologies to Kat who had a sincere question on his annual. I'll be happy to follow up any answers via PM if you wish...

And now back to trolling with tom...
Tom-D said:
when the aircraft is ready to inspect, the bearings should be included.
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Ha. So, when you show up to perform an annual you expect that all 3 wheels are removed from the aircraft and their respective bearings sitting on a table, cleaned, and ready for your annual inspection? Do you also provide the jack stands for the aircraft?
Tom-D said:
There are other ways to inspect for compression.
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So what other ways can you check engine compression and still finish your inspection within 20 minutes?
Tom-D said:
It is simple part 39 is not a portion of an annual.
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Really? So why check the ADs then if it's not part of the annual? I guess you also don't check the aircraft conforms to it's TCDS either for an annual?
 
Bell206 said:
My humble apologies to Kat who had a sincere question on his annual. I'll be happy to follow up any answers via PM if you wish...

And now back to trolling with tom...

Ha. So, when you show up to perform an annual you expect that all 3 wheels are removed from the aircraft and their respective bearings sitting on a table, cleaned, and ready for your annual inspection? Do you also provide the jack stands for the aircraft?

So what other ways can you check engine compression and still finish your inspection within 20 minutes?

Really? So why check the ADs then if it's not part of the annual? I guess you also don't check the aircraft conforms to it's TCDS either for an annual?
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Shouldn't it all that be done prior.
why can't all three wheel be off at the same times. do you have the proper equipment or not? I am not required supply equipment. (OBTW) how would you complete a retract test are all wheels off the ground.
We again regress, again Bell can't tell the difference between an inspection, and maintenance.
 
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Tom-D said:
do you have the proper equipment or not?
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Really...again? How many of the owners you perform annuals for have a set of aircraft jacks and a tail support so they can pull all 3 wheels for you to inspect the wheel bearings, engine compression, and entire aircraft in 20 minutes? And people still let you work on their aircraft? Perhaps you should try a smaller shovel. ;)
 
Bell206 said:
Really? So why check the ADs then if it's not part of the annual?
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you really don't know that part 39 isn't an annual. can a A&P do AD compliance?
 
Bell206 said:
Really...again? How many of the owners you perform annuals for have a set of aircraft jacks and a tail support so they can pull all 3 wheels for you to inspect the wheel bearings, engine compression, and entire aircraft in 20 minutes? And people still let you work on their aircraft? Perhaps you should try a smaller shovel. ;)
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real mechanics can.
 
Bell206 said:
Really...again? How many of the owners you perform annuals for have a set of aircraft jacks and a tail support so they can pull all 3 wheels for you to inspect the wheel bearings, engine compression, and entire aircraft in 20 minutes? And people still let you work on their aircraft? Perhaps you should try a smaller shovel. ;)
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Have you ever completed an inspection on a 210. don't thing so.
How much time goes into preparing the aircraft getting it ready to INSPECT.

SO you can't understand the different between maintenance and inspections?
 
When you sign off an AD are you required to declare airworthiness ?
Bell206 said:
Really...again? How many of the owners you perform annuals for have a set of aircraft jacks and a tail support so they can pull all 3 wheels for you to inspect the wheel bearings, engine compression, and entire aircraft in 20 minutes? And people still let you work on their aircraft? Perhaps you should try a smaller shovel. ;)
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You really don't know that preparing an aircraft for inspection isn't the inspection?
 
Tom-D said:
you really don't know that part 39 isn't an annual. can a A&P do AD compliance?
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What I do know is that if a person performing any inspection required by Part 91 finds the aircraft does not meet the applicable airworthiness directives that person must give the owner a signed and dated list of that discrepancy. That's regulatory. So yes Part 39 is part of an annual inspection. Notice how it states the "person performing" the inspection. So if you delegated the AD search to "your APs" you just null and voided your annual sign-off. You may want to fill out a NASA ASRS report for all those annuals.
Tom-D said:
real mechanics can.
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Do you know any?
Tom-D said:
How much time goes into preparing the aircraft getting it ready to INSPECT.
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Plenty. After doing owner assisted annuals for years where we disassembled/reassembled the aircraft under my ticket and brought in an IA in to do the inspection we got it down to a science. No 210, but 206s, 182s, 172s, etc. However, never had an IA finish in 20 minutes let alone 2 hours. Would have ran off any IA that did. But if that's how you run your annuals that's on you.;)
 
After starting to do owner assisted annuals on my plane, I am shocked at how much less complicated they are than I thought, and how much more simple these old planes are than they seem. 10 hours to remove inspection panels is insane.
 
oh sweet, the mx forum is still at it :rolleyes:.....wonder who'll call bingo first:D
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Bell206 said:
What I do know is that if a person performing any inspection required by Part 91 finds the aircraft does not meet the applicable airworthiness directives that person must give the owner a signed and dated list of that discrepancy. That's regulatory. So yes Part 39 is part of an annual inspection. ;)
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This changes nothing, It is unairworthy make the entry.
(5) Except for progressive inspections, if the aircraft is not approved for return to service because of needed maintenance, noncompliance with applicable specifications, airworthiness directives, or other approved data, the following or a similarly worded statement—“I certify that this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with (insert type) inspection and a list of discrepancies and unairworthy items dated (date) has been provided for the aircraft owner or operator.”


Then why is 39 separate from the sign off, because they are separate issues.
The A&P- can sign off the Annual as unairworthy. and still complete the AD by another mechanic, they are not tied together.
 
AA5Bman said:
After starting to do owner assisted annuals on my plane, I am shocked at how much less complicated they are than I thought, and how much more simple these old planes are than they seem. 10 hours to remove inspection panels is insane.
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That is where I am.
You may expend as much time as you please cleaning, (petting) the brakes and wheels, when it is ready to inspect, it takes me a nanosecond to look at them, take all time you want to put it together again, I'll take another look when it is back together again.
And remember I don't have to charge you to hang around shooting the scat. I charge a flat fee for inspections.
 
look at the number of posts that we are up to just trying to rationalize ripping off owners.

Bell and his boys skipped the original idea. (what would the inspection cost)
Should I charge for part 39 compliance when it costs nothing.
many aircraft there are no ADs to comply with each year, should you get ripped off that?
There is no requirements to make an entry for 39 compliance unless there is a new AD to record
And -plus, ADlog.com makes it even easier.
 
Bell206 said:
Plenty. After doing owner assisted annuals for years where we disassembled/reassembled the aircraft under my ticket and brought in an IA in to do the inspection we got it down to a science.;)
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Then why don't you know what inspection is. there is maintenance and inspection it's time you figured that out.
 
AA5Bman said:
10 hours to remove inspection panels is insane.
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I believe the 10 hours was to disassemble and reassemble the aircraft. Considering it’s a 182 and requires removing/installing the interior trim, seats and floor covering, fairings, cowling, and the inspection panels, 5 hours each way seems reasonable or 2.5 hours each if 2 people doing the work.
 
Tom-D said:
Should I charge for part 39 compliance when it costs nothing.
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FYI: the statement in Post 57 is a partial quote of a Part 43 regulation. So the person performing the annual, i.e., the IA, is required to check the AD compliance. Just because an inspection item is not listed in 43-D doesn’t mean it’s not required when you sign off the annual.

For those who wish to know which FARs apply to an annual outside 91.409, Part 43.11(a) and Part 43 App D will be happy to PM the links.

Tom-D said:
look at the number of posts that we are up to just trying to rationalize ripping off owners.
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What I find ironic is, for someone who calls out the experience and knowledge of others as below yours, you consistently show your lack of basic regulatory knowledge—even when it’s been available in black and white for years. And while you may think other mechanics are “ripping off” their customers for taking longer than 20 minutes to annual an aircraft, I think it’s you who ripping off your customers on the one thing they bring their aircraft to you for, a safe and airworthy aircraft.;)
 
Once again you try to cloud the issue. Show us that 91.4-- talks about part 39..never once does it say part 39 is the same issue.

And 91 only talks about passing the annual
The A&P does not have to pass the annual to sign off the annual.
proof that an annual is not part 39. FAR 43-11
(5) Except for progressive inspections, if the aircraft is not approved for return to service because of needed maintenance, noncompliance with applicable specifications, airworthiness directives, or other approved data, the following or a similarly worded statement—“I certify that this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with (insert type) inspection and a list of discrepancies and unairworthy items dated (date) has been provided for the aircraft owner or operator.”
An annual can be completed and the discrepancies ( ADs ) can be completed later, that could not occur if they were the same.
 
I consider myself somewhere in the middle of a continuum of owners who don’t know anything about airplane systems other than what they learned to pass the private pilot exams and a seasoned crusty A&P/IA. I depend heavily on my mechanics to keep me in legal compliance and to reduce the risk of mechanically induced tragedy. I really don’t know jack.

Thus, paying for an annual: I can pay a lot and get a little, or pay a lot and get a lot, or pay a little and get a little; It is rare if not impossible to pay a little and get a lot. So paying a little will NEVER get me what I want.

I’m paying for azzes and elbows to be sticking out of my plane crawling all over it for a few days (plus some AD book stuff). I have no less than 4 guys with 8 eyeballs on my sh*t. You get what you pay for sometimes, but you almost never get what you don’t pay for.

-Consumer of A&P/IA services
 
Bell206 said:
FYI: the statement in Post 57 is a partial quote of a Part 43 regulation. So the person performing the annual, i.e., the IA, is required to check the AD compliance. Just because an inspection item is not listed in 43-D doesn’t mean it’s not required when you sign off the annual.

For those who wish to know which FARs apply to an annual outside 91.409, Part 43.11(a) and Part 43 App D will be happy to PM the links.


What I find ironic is, for someone who calls out the experience and knowledge of others as below yours, you consistently show your lack of basic regulatory knowledge—even when it’s been available in black and white for years. And while you may think other mechanics are “ripping off” their customers for taking longer than 20 minutes to annual an aircraft, I think it’s you who ripping off your customers on the one thing they bring their aircraft to you for, a safe and airworthy aircraft.;)
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Troll
 
Bell206 said:
I believe the 10 hours was to disassemble and reassemble the aircraft. Considering it’s a 182 and requires removing/installing the interior trim, seats and floor covering, fairings, cowling, and the inspection panels, 5 hours each way seems reasonable or 2.5 hours each if 2 people doing the work.
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I dunno... Having just done this recently for our 205, I think I disagree, but I'm working under the assumption that you don't need to take out the interior trim panels for an annual. Maybe you do, and I agree, that is a pain. We actually had to do that on my annual last year - so I know that's a giant time-suck - but we did it so that we could replace some of the rear windows, not for the annual per se.

Just removing cowlings, fairings, inspection panels, seats and carpets is not that big of a job. But I will admit interior panels were a pain.
 
Tom-D said:
Show us that 91.4-- talks about part 39..never once does it say part 39 is the same issue.
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As I was saying… basic regulatory knowledge. As you mentioned several times above we are only discussing the inspection side of an annual. Not the maintenance, etc. Right?

First, Part 91 only applies to the owner/operator. Not a person performing an annual inspection. Full stop. The owner selects the inspection and who will perform it. There is zero regulatory guidance for the APIA in Part 91 for complying with an annual inspection.

Once you as the APIA agree to perform the annual inspection as selected by the owner, your sole regulatory guidance to perform that inspection is found in Part 43. The pertinent regulations for an APIA performing an annual, or required inspection in general, are preceded by the text “person inspecting” or “person approving” which have specific meanings when it comes to who is actually performing the work, i.e., the APIA.

And while you continue to disbelieve that AD compliance, among other items, is not a requirement for an APIA to comply with while performing an annual inspection… all I can say is Part 43 will set you free of that disbelief.

brien23 said:
Troll
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I guess you're a supporter of 20 minute annuals, etc. also?o_O
 
Bell206 said:
For a 20 minute special annual... no. But for a proper Part 43 annual... yes, the trim needs to come out.
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And to elaborate- there are cables and pullies under that trim, such as the side panels in the forward cabin of a 182P
 
I gotta agree with Bell206....this wasn't a US inspection. Other countries have different rules they're required to follow. The manufacturer's list is only the starting point. I've flown in rentals Australia and never had any worries about the quality of maintenance. I will add the caveat that maybe, just maybe, (minor conspiracy thought here...) is that your 182 is a bit of a hostage right now, since you're stuck down under, and a few extra hours were needed because the shop never saw the airplane before?

Back to Bell206's comments - ask around the local pilots you know. See if the pricing is inline with comparable inspections and work.

My shop just went up to $95/hr. But the inspection is a flat rate, it's everything else I asked them to do that ran the bill up. The final cost was $65 less than I estimated. I'm a happy camper.

Neither I nor the shop are interested in owner-assisted annuals, but I remove the wheel pants, strut covers, empty the cabin & baggage area of stuff I usually carry, remove the front seats, put the "consumables" in the baggage area (oil filter, batteries, etc) needed. Stupid stuff that they really don't want to worry about, or do, even tho they can bill for it. Makes life for them a bit easier. I also leave a written shopping list of things I know need to be done.
 
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455 Bravo Uniform said:
I consider myself somewhere in the middle of a continuum of owners who don’t know anything about airplane systems other than what they learned to pass the private pilot exams and a seasoned crusty A&P/IA. I depend heavily on my mechanics to keep me in legal compliance and to reduce the risk of mechanically induced tragedy. I really don’t know jack.

Thus, paying for an annual: I can pay a lot and get a little, or pay a lot and get a lot, or pay a little and get a little; It is rare if not impossible to pay a little and get a lot. So paying a little will NEVER get me what I want.

I’m paying for azzes and elbows to be sticking out of my plane crawling all over it for a few days (plus some AD book stuff). I have no less than 4 guys with 8 eyeballs on my sh*t. You get what you pay for sometimes, but you almost never get what you don’t pay for.

-Consumer of A&P/IA services
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I was astonished last week when I got the call that the annual was finished in only 4 days. Turns out the shop wasn't busy, and all 3 A&Ps (2 of which are IAs) went to town on the cherokee - even flew after to make sure everything was ok - which was a surprise! but one of the A&Ps/IA is new to the shop and wanted to see how it flew. Yes, both IAs have their commercial and yes, I have the appropriate clause in the insurance to allow it.
 
Bell206 said:
As I was saying… basic regulatory knowledge. As you mentioned several times above we are only discussing the inspection side of an annual. Not the maintenance, etc. Right?
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You can't talk about maintenance, and consider it an inspection.
even the dummies know that.
 
Bell206 said:
As I was saying… basic regulatory knowledge. As you mentioned several times above we are only discussing the inspection side of an annual. Not the maintenance, etc. Right?
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So why mention it as a discussion about the difference between part 39 and an annual

trying to confuse the issue again?

or are you admitting I'm right.
Simply why does 91 omit part 39?
 
murphey said:
Back to Bell206's comments - ask around the local pilots you know. See if the pricing is inline with comparable inspections and work.
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The FBOs and most shops do not separate the two /work/labor/ inspection, because they do the works as part of the inspection.

Now when the A&P-IA is to do just the inspection, they get confused.
Tell how the inspection would occur when the A&P is the owner, they can comply with part 39 on their own signature. There is no requirement in FAR 43 for the IA to get involved.
 
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Tom-D said:
The FBOs and most shops do not separate the two /work/labor/ inspection, because they do the works as part of the inspection.

Now when the A&P-IA is to do just the inspection, they get confused.
Tell how the inspection would occur when the A&P is the owner, they can comply with part 39 on their own signature. There is no requirement in FAR 43 for the IA to get involved.
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giphy-downsized-large.gif
 
Bell206 said:
I guess you're a supporter of 20 minute annuals, etc. also?o_O
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Just so I know, Brien knows the FARS. attends the yearly renewal for the FAA. and this subject is discussed every year, and the FAA is fully in agreement.
 
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