Hot day, max load, should I use flaps on takeoff

...more importantly, if the poh says max angle of climb is 2 notches of flaps then clearly flaps are increasing max angle of climb. Seems obvious to me, but it seems to have been missed.
Not missed. Isn't the angle of climb just a matter of trigonometry? The most thrust for the least drag? Don't you retract flaps for cruising because there's less drag? Do you add flaps for maximizing range when you're getting low on fuel? Flaps cause drag, decrease available thrust for climbing. Ever seen one of those POH charts where the best rate and best angle of climb speeds are plotted as an inverted "V" coming together at the absolute ceiling in the apex? Imagine how it would look if you added flaps—wouldn't be as tall of a "V", would it. Then the Vx side of the graph would be more flat, less steep, right? There ya go...

On takeoff, flaps get you climbing sooner, not better. A head start over no-flaps, slow and steady usually wins the race to the 50' obstacle if just a smidgen of them are extended (see POH).

Same goes for transport aircraft. They use more flaps near sea level for runway limitation reasons. Out west, at higher elevations and longer runways, they use less so they can make climb gradient limits.
 
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The most thrust for the least drag?
No. I think that would be max rate, not max angle.

you can’t climb sooner unless you are climbing better. But, it depends on what you mean by sooner. Sooner time wise, you’d want VY. Sooner distance wise, you’d want Vx. That’s the difference between them.

with flaps, you will climber slower based on time, but faster based on distance. Clearing that obstacle you care only about distance. “Angle” not “rate”
 
No. I think that would be max rate, not max angle.
"Rate" is a power term, thrust is a force term. Climb angle depends on forces up an inclined plane.

you can’t climb sooner unless you are climbing better.
You can get airborne in ground effect. You can lift off sooner due to lower stall speed...
 
"Rate" is a power term, not thrust.


You can get airborne in ground effect. You can lift off sooner due to lower stall speed...

I give up. If the poh says max angle of climb is achieved with flaps, then max angle of climb is achieved with flaps.
 
I give up. If the poh says max angle of climb is achieved with flaps, then max angle of climb is achieved with flaps.
The POH says to retract flaps, too, don't forget that. I can't explain the PA-32 above. I bet it's a typo. Maybe to mitigate the lack of over-nose visibility in the climb? :dunno:

Salty.jpg
 
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Reading comprehension again. It's obviously not the procedure turns but the fact that ALL the expert sources were in error so I actually did something dangerously radical and tested these claims and after finding all the experts were in error I then redid the math which was verified by a professor of mathematics. So, once again One test is worth 1000 opinions.
Now you have me curious as to what was the big error. What exactly was written that was so wrong? Do you have a link to the article you published?
 
You missed the point. Vx is Vx is Vx. It doesn’t change because you are close to an obstacle.

Vx is without flaps.

Climbing over a "close-in" obstacle with flaps right after takeoff is done at a speed that is LOWER than Vx.

Reason: There is not enough distance to accelerate to Vx, because the tree is in the way.

Salty, here is your new mantra...........

Vx is clean wing
Vx is clean wing
Vx is clean wing

Go up to the blackboard and write that 100 times and then go to the back of the class and sit in the corner.
 
Vx is without flaps.

Climbing over a "close-in" obstacle with flaps right after takeoff is done at a speed that is LOWER than Vx.

Reason: There is not enough distance to accelerate to Vx, because the tree is in the way.

Salty, here is your new mantra...........

Vx is clean wing
Vx is clean wing
Vx is clean wing

Go up to the blackboard and write that 100 times and then go to the back of the class and sit in the corner.
That's not what that POH says.
 
Here's another definition of Vx

https://www.flyingmag.com/everything-about-v-speeds-explained/
— Best angle-of-climb speed. Delivers the greatest gain of altitude in the shortest possible horizontal distance. The speed given in the flight manual is good only at sea level, at max gross weight and with flaps in takeoff position. VX increases with altitude (about ½ knot per 1,000 feet) and usually decreases with a reduction of weight. It will take more time to gain altitude at VX because of the slower speed, but the goal is to gain the most altitude in the shortest horizontal distance.
 
You are reading but not comprehending. Much of the above is written in mistake and/or error.

You need to remember is that the FAA publishes something and then re-writes it every five years. They ALWAYS change the acronyms as well. These people are not pilots anymore and are paid by the weight of their paperwork generated.

AOPA is mostly written by amateurs.

Owner's manuals OFTEN contain errors and omissions. Just weigh the owner's manual from the first Cherokee and the latest POH from one today.

Vx, in the airplanes we mostly fly here, is with clean wing. The only airplane I got to fly regularly in which that wasn't the case was the DeHavilland DHC-2 Beaver.
 
That's not what that POH says.

I haven't read the POH for the 140 but in the Archer II POH that I have, the short field, obstacle clearance technique says: "Accelerate to best flaps up angle of climb speed - 64 KIAS, slowly retract the flaps and climb past the obstacle."
 
How does the plane know to start climbing at a lower angle after it gets past the close in obstacles?

Vx is the airspeed that will result in the best angle of climb whether you are close to an obstacle or not.

No, you are twisting the argument around into something that hasn't been claimed. Read the quote from ANA that I posted.

The airspeed used for a short-field takeoff may be lower than Vx because acceleration to Vx will reduce the climb angle for the period of time during which the aircraft is accelerating. The acceleration is temporary which is why it matters how close the obstacle is to the takeoff point.

For example, the Cessna 172S short-field procedure to clear a 50' obstacle is to use 10° flaps and climb at 56 knots. Meanwhile, Vx is listed as 62 knots at Flaps 0.
 
Don't mind the gallery, POA tends to be snarky for sport. In non-swept, subsonic wing planforms of moderate to high aspect ratios (essentially these light piston clam traps), flaps change the effective camber of the wing, which shift the Pr and Tr curves up via extra drag (combined). This has the effect of hurting the angle of climb capability of the airplane, lowers the service ceiling as well. But it also changes the VX and VY numbers as provided by the OEM (to the left), because the calculation of Vx and Vy is made with the wings in the clean configuration, and labeled for max gross weight.

Conversely, decreased weight for the same powerplant and wing configuration increases the power loading, which increases the angle of climb capability (excess thrust and power points in the curves respectively). That's why naturally, the airplane performs better in the climb when it's lighter.

But that's climb. Now let's talk about your question, takeoff. There is a competing relationship between 1) acceleration to liftoff speed, and 2) liftoff speed calculation as a function of flap angle. Piper essentially is telling you that two notches of flaps, eg 25* ,is the optimum combination for minimizing ground run. Why is that? Because the effective camber of the wing with flaps at 25* yields the quickest convergence point to the attainment of liftoff speed, which minimizes ground run (all weights) when compared to flaps 40*, flaps 10* or flaps 0* takeoff attempts.

You have to remember from the prior discussion, that flap angle changes camber, which changes Cl per alpha, and that changes liftoff speed. Yes, flaps 0* will have less drag during acceleration than flaps 25*, but the aircraft has longer to attain the higher no-flap liftoff speed. Conversely, 40* has the slowest of all liftoff speeds, but the drag penalty in acceleration still yields a ground run longer to reach this lower liftoff speed. Piper did the homework for you and showed you that two notches, not one, not three, not zero; 25* gets you the minimum ground roll to wheels off the pavement.

Flaps 10* use in your clubs case? Sorry, it's just placebo. You'll have a marginally shorter ground run than flaps zero, but your climb gradient will be poorer than the clean wing takeoff counter. If you want to minimize ground run, 25* is the optimum choice. If you're worried about settling in high temp/DA days and prefer to have that "positive feel" when climbing away, flaps zero and a longer ground run to liftoff speed closer to Vx and Vy is the ticket. Flaps 10 is generally an instrument approach sight picture enhancing setting prior to breaking out the clouds and committing to flaps 25 or 40 on the visual landing. Perfectly fine to use it on takeoff, but you're not gaining anything deemed important when taking off. Flaps 0 or 25 are the answer for the PA-(2,3)X-xxx series.

As to the POH. What @Ravioli was hinting in his matter-o-fact way is that the POH is a legal instrument for the FAA to hang you with. Citing deviations from the POH, even if immaterial to the accident, is in his opinion is opening yourself for scrutiny and fault-assigning. Bear in mind, POHs have been laden with safety-detracting directives and information. First two that come to mind are the recommendation to lean to 50ROP above 65% of pre-restart Pipers and Cessnas, the other one being non-altitude compensated power tables for a blown conti 360 in the turbo arrow. That one can get real scary real quick, especially with an intercooler mod and a neophyte at the helm.

It's a bit of hyperbole that the FAA is gonna yank your ticket because you chose to fly flaps 10 and porked a takeoff, but the principle behind using the POH as the catch all to cover yourself from the hall monitor types at the FSDO is probably sincere advice.

Vx is stated with a clean wing? I didn’t know that. I don’t want to try to clear obstacles in my Cessna at 63mph with a clean wing. And we’re all trained not to retract flaps until obstacles are cleared, which is the only time we use Vx. Hmm.

My favorite flap demo is to fast taxi a tail dragger with the tail down and no flaps. Add flaps-it flies. Conversely fast taxi enough to hold the tail up with full flaps out. Retract flaps and the tail drops. That’s why sometimes taildragger pilots dump flaps immediately after landing. These demos work in hot or cold weather.

I always use at least 20* and as much as 40* flaps at takeoff. In my Cub I use three notches (about 40*) and full nose down trim to take off. Power comes up, the tail comes up, I drop the tail with elevator, I’m flying. Usually before the throttle’s all the way in. I do retract them fairly quickly or as soon as obstacles are cleared, and that always happens prior to winding the prop down a little. Watch float planes and you’ll see lots of guys start a run with little or no flaps and then pull about 30* flaps to pop the plane off the water. Easier with manual flaps but also done with electrics. Different techniques for different situations. The art part of flying.
 
You missed the point. Vx is Vx is Vx. It doesn’t change because you are close to an obstacle.

you may not want to fly Vx after you clear the obstacle, but that’s not what he said. He said remove flaps and fly Vx if you want to.

more importantly, if the poh says max angle of climb is 2 notches of flaps then clearly flaps are increasing max angle of climb. Seems obvious to me, but it seems to have been missed.

OK. Maybe I missed your point. Your question was "How does the plane know to start climbing at a lower angle after it gets past the close in obstacles?" My answer was "The airplane doesn't, the pilot does." I stand by that answer. Maybe the question you asked wasn't really what you meant to ask. I don't know. I am not trying to start a fight here. Just trying to help impart knowledge when I can and hopefully extract some knowledge when I need it. The pilot community overall is a great place. I'm just trying to do my part.
 
airplanes climb because the lift is greater than the weight of the aircraft.....
OK. Maybe I missed your point. Your question was "How does the plane know to start climbing at a lower angle after it gets past the close in obstacles?" My answer was "The airplane doesn't, the pilot does." I stand by that answer. Maybe the question you asked wasn't really what you meant to ask. I don't know. I am not trying to start a fight here. Just trying to help impart knowledge when I can and hopefully extract some knowledge when I need it. The pilot community overall is a great place. I'm just trying to do my part.
 
actually.....money makes them fly. :D

where does a climbing glider get it's excess thrust or power....?o_O

You want to equate a climbing glider with a climb in an airplane? Do you think they're the same thing?

What was the Vx and takeoff distance over a 50' obstacle in the last glider you flew?
 
You want to equate a climbing glider with a climb in an airplane? Do you think they're the same thing?

What was the Vx and takeoff distance over a 50' obstacle in the last glider you flew?
Rope launch or towed launch?
 
Maybe to mitigate the lack of over-nose visibility in the climb?

Yes, this can be a factor, at least for me in my airplane (not a Cherokee or anything else anybody here flies). With 8 degrees of flaps, the takeoff setting, I can hold a lower speed while still seeing over the nose adequately. That lower speed is above, but closer to Vx and Vy. It thereby provides more climb performance than I would otherwise get for an extended climb, as for instance when you take off straight out and need to climb above an adjacent airports Class D, in busy airspace where you need to see other traffic.

If I don't need to see over the nose to the same extent, I retract takeoff flaps at 500 ft AGL.

Different techniques for different situations. The art part of flying.

Yes, exactly. You can also call it science once you accept that takeoff and climb configuration may be optimized by factors other than Vx and Vy.
 
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How does the plane know to start climbing at a lower angle after it gets past the close in obstacles?

The old planes won't, but you need to upgrade to something that has a glass panel and then it is smart enough without your input. You might try a Cirrus ...:confused::confused::eek::eek::eek::p:p:p
 
You missed the point. Vx is Vx is Vx. It doesn’t change because you are close to an obstacle.

you may not want to fly Vx after you clear the obstacle, but that’s not what he said. He said remove flaps and fly Vx if you want to.

more importantly, if the poh says max angle of climb is 2 notches of flaps then clearly flaps are increasing max angle of climb. Seems obvious to me, but it seems to have been missed.

Here is the POH on the internet for a PA28-181

SHORT FIELD, OBSTACLE
CLEARANCE
Flaps......................25 degrees (second notch) Accelerate to 41 to 49 KIAS depending on a/c wt. Control wheel.............back pressure to rotate
to climb attitude After breaking ground, accelerate to 45 to 54
KIAS depending on aircraft weight Accelerate to best flaps up angle of climb speed –
64 KIAS, slowly retract the flaps and climb past the obstacle.

Accelerate to best flaps up rate of climb speed – 76 KIAS
SOFT FIELD
Flaps.........................25 degrees (2nd notch) Accelerate to 41-49 KIAS depending on a/c wt. Control wheel...............back pressure to rotate
to climb attitude After breaking ground, accelerate to 45 to 54
KIAS depending on aircraft weight Accelerate to best flaps up rate of climb speed
76 KIAS Flaps............................retract slowly

Notice the bolded section where it describes slowly retracting flaps and ( then) climb past the obstacle.
This is telling me that to achieve best angle, take out the flaps as soon as practicable.

From an experience I had in my Archer II, I had a short field takeoff at gross with trees as the obstruction ahead. With 2 notches of flaps (25*) there was an issue whether the tree tops could be eclipsed in time. However, as soon as I slowly shedded the flaps synchronously with the manual flap handle, the increased angle at Vx was easy to see.

edit: Apology to Dogopilot, I didn’t see your post until later.
 
1969 Cherokee 140B, 34 gallons fuel, max weight at 2,150 pounds and balance just in. A&P put on a climb prop when the stock prop was red tagged a few years ago at annual. Airport elevation 49 feet MSL. Temperature was 95 and density altitude 2,200. As expected with 150Hp the climb out at 85MPH was anemic at a tad over 500 FPM. Would taking off with 1 or 2 notches of flap be prudent and improve the climb out even though the POH does not suggest it as a hot day procedure?

Hi Ron and everyone.

There are many posts and I did not read them all except the Page 3 and if the information I will post has already been posted I apologize and call for Moderators to delete this post if found irrelevant.

I’ve done a lot of flight analysis in different GA planes and found that in some of the older acft, in particular the Pipers, real performance vs Owner’s Manual (OM), can vary by a large factor, especially in the rentals. There are some owners that can do some strange things thinking that they can better protect their asset.

I see a lot of Trig, Book info, Numbers and Theory, and they can all be right and all be wrong, there is only one right answer, test it yourself in that particular acft.

Given the data from OP the difference in technique vs gain is negligible and the best thing is to follow the Club (they may know something you don’t), and or OM’s recommended procedure.

The procedure I use in the situations, if I want to test, is to first use the reference in the manual, do a test run and mark the lift off spot on the runway.

Assuming No 50Ft climb required stay in Ground effect, as you gain airspeed, fly Vx and above 50 ft., retract flaps slowly and climb at Vy is likely the best procedure.

Note AGL, and IAS at the end of the Rwy and than again as you reach 1000 Ft AGL on a ground reference.

You can repeat the process with different Flap settings and lowering the Flaps on the run.

Practically the Pipers will give best climb performance in a clean configuration, and given the OP’s post, unless you as a pilot can test otherwise, using the recommended OM procedure should be best.

For better performance, earlier lift off, trying to wait for the initial roll to start and lower the flaps on the run, lift off at minimum airspeed, fly in ground effect until Vx then retract flaps after 50 Ft. it usually gets a bit of a shorter ground run and, if everything is done properly after that, the proper speed, retract flaps slowly will typically give you a better over the 50Ft obstacle performance.

Typically, given all other factors being the same, and everything done properly, the earlier you get off the ground the better you are.
 
Blusideup this is the OP. You are late to the party but glad you could attend. I have learned a lot even though I opened a can of worms with some of the responses. The plane I fly is sort of mine; I.E. not a club plane therefore the OM is the best guide as to performance which I have been following. Your advice is sage and along the path I have been thinking which is see how accurate the OM is with regards to performance numbers and graphs relative to any variations introduced in 50 years on the airframe. In thinking deeper about this the OM is the definitive authority and combined with technique and pilotage is the best performance situation. I am more concerned about protecting two major assets which is my passengers and me! I am your average pilot and do not have the skills to be my own test pilot. Thanks for adding to the knowledge base.
 
Think the only solution is need actual data in different planes. Take off zero flap not rate of climb, time and distance to TPA. Then do it 10 degrees, clear obstacle the reduce zero flaps. Then 10 degrees aloe way up. Try a few knots faster and see happens.
 
Think the only solution is need actual data in different planes. Take off zero flap not rate of climb, time and distance to TPA. Then do it 10 degrees, clear obstacle the reduce zero flaps. Then 10 degrees aloe way up. Try a few knots faster and see happens.
Yes, which I stated eons ago. Per Hughes Aircraft Engineering lab,"One test is worth a thousand opinions".

My Cessna 210D factory manual says to use 20 degrees of flaps until ALL obstacles are cleared; not just 50' obstacles but ALL. Why is there so much endless blah blah on these forums. Go TEST accurately and report the results and how you got them. This is the proof for that airplane like it or not.
 
Yes, which I stated eons ago. Per Hughes Aircraft Engineering lab,"One test is worth a thousand opinions".

My Cessna 210D factory manual says to use 20 degrees of flaps until ALL obstacles are cleared; not just 50' obstacles but ALL. Why is there so much endless blah blah on these forums. Go TEST accurately and report the results and how you got them. This is the proof for that airplane like it or not.

Even if you do that, someone is going to still disagree with you, because they THINK it should be their way, even though they just spout theory and not actual application.
 
My 1964 C-210 Owers Manual (no POH exists) states to use 20 degrees flaps and to climb at 63 MPH until all obstacles are cleared. Do you comprehend all obstacles? It does not say 10 foot nor 50 foot obstacles but all.

And I did not allege an error in all instrument flying books I could find but proved the error by actual testing, calculated the proper procedure, and had my calculations verified by a professor of mathematics at the University of Illinois to the satisfaction of the AOPA.

Try again.

Y'all made me look. About time, too. I haven't looked at my POH for probably 20 years.

V speeds are not stated outright, but speeds are included in procedures. My '75 C180-J says max performance takeoffs use 20* flaps at 64mph. Retract flaps when clear of obstacles. Max angle in cruise climb is 70mph with flaps retracted. It doesn't say which nets a steeper or better rate of climb. I have something to do next time I fly.
 
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Y'all made me look. About time, too. I haven't looked at my POH for probably 20 years.

V speeds are not stated outright, but speeds are included in procedures. My '75 C180-J says max performance takeoffs use 20* flaps at 64mph. Retract flaps when clear of obstacles. Max angle in cruise climb is 70mph with flaps retracted. It doesn't say which nets a steeper or better rate of climb. I have something to do next time I fly.
A max angle climb is NOT a cruise climb. A cruise climb is a compromise between maximum rate of climb and maximizing air speed. I guess logic is not an American thing.
 
A max angle climb is NOT a cruise climb. A cruise climb is a compromise between maximum rate of climb and maximizing air speed. I guess logic is not an American thing.
I know what you think it is. I just stated what the POH says. Different Vx with or without flaps. That makes perfect sense.
 
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Totally agree. But to Salty out of the 20 advanced countries in the world the USA number 19 in math and science testing. And these are very logic dependent. But we are number one in self esteem.
 
A max angle climb is NOT a cruise climb. A cruise climb is a compromise between maximum rate of climb and maximizing air speed. I guess logic is not an American thing.

It was maybe a poor choice of wording; context indicates he simply meant "flaps up climb." But there was nothing logically wrong with his post.

On the other hand the garbage you spewed about power required and power available was logically and factually incorrect.
 
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