Hidden Damage

brien23

brien23

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Brien
Only found hail damage after strip and paint, lots of bondo on wings and tail. Found lots of insulation glued over the inside of a belly gear up repair, lots of bent over rivets under it, great cover up. Anyone else found hidden damage covered up to sell a plane, and what was it.
 
No surprises.

But a comprehensive pre-buy can be expensive. For many that cuts too deep into their flying budget.
 
Unfortunately people can’t always be trusted,a full pre purchase can solve a lot of problems.
 
To add, When the inspector see this type of damage, what should they do?

Fold their tent and go away?
Refuse to write it up? and possibly get sued?
 
How would an inspector find damage like that under the paint? Something a trained inspector eye should see, or are there just things that aren't detectable?
 
brien23 said:
... Anyone else found hidden damage covered up to sell a plane, and what was it.
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I don't know about "hidden damage". But, I still get a chuckle every time I see a Cherokee with the speed mods and remember the "hidden" aileron counter-weights on the 180.
 
WDD said:
How would an inspector find damage like that under the paint? Something a trained inspector eye should see, or are there just things that aren't detectable?
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There are some clues. You may not catch all of it. But, a disappearing rivet line is a big tip off, as well as paint cracking just a certain way.
 
If you want to find out how good bondo is to hide hale damage ask a paint shop how many times they see it, only after they strip all the old paint off.
 
Is there a requirement for AP/IA to get their eyes checked?
 
wilkersk said:
There are some clues. You may not catch all of it. But, a disappearing rivet line is a big tip off, as well as paint cracking just a certain way.
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Looking down a flat surface with a near zero angle view can sometimes spot a rise or dip in the surface that may be the result of a repair. Sometimes tapping a surface and listening for a change in the tone of the tap can locate a repaired area. Of course the sound will change over a rib or other reinforcement. Cockpit, luggage, and cowling doors that do not open/close correctly or seams that are no longer copacetic are also clues. But there's nothing like taking it apart to see both sides of an area.
 
brien23 said:
Only found hail damage after strip and paint, lots of bondo on wings and tail. Found lots of insulation glued over the inside of a belly gear up repair, lots of bent over rivets under it, great cover up. Anyone else found hidden damage covered up to sell a plane, and what was it.
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Ouch...sorry to hear that, dude. It really sucks. It seems like many dealing in airplanes are more unethical than the proverbial used car salesman. Which sucks more.

And, of course, there are those here who say they woulda seen it from a football field away and that you're an idiot. :rolleyes:
 
You were flying it before and you were not unhappy why be unhappy now?
 
DFH65 said:
You were flying it before and you were not unhappy why be unhappy now?
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Because he was sold an airplane that somewhere along the line was illegally fixed by some sleazeball and he can't be sure that there isn't some other time bomb waiting to go off and kill him?

Sorry for this Brien.
 
brien23 said:
Only found hail damage after strip and paint, lots of bondo on wings and tail.
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I've discovered when inspecting a wing with the inspection cover removed it's easy to see the underside of the wing skin, and if there are dimples from hail damage they are obvious.

Also, depending upon the make, some manufacturers allow bondo to be used for minor imperfections such as hail damage.
 
Doc Holliday said:
I've discovered when inspecting a wing with the inspection cover removed it's easy to see the underside of the wing skin, and if there are dimples from hail damage they are obvious.

Also, depending upon the make, some manufacturers allow bondo to be used for minor imperfections such as hail damage.
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That there. A good look inside stuff is important.
 
PaulS said:
Because he was sold an airplane that somewhere along the line was illegally fixed by some sleazeball and he can't be sure that there isn't some other time bomb waiting to go off and kill him?

Sorry for this Brien.
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I would bet that 90% plus of airplanes out there have some illegal repair in their past. Doesn't mean they aren't airworthy. I was just trying to help give a different more positive spin on it.

Yeah it is frustrating to find stuff you didn't know about or wasn't represented properly. Having said that buyer beware and all that, and sometimes the price justifies overlooking a few things or not worrying about looking too closely until after you bought it.

Hope it all works out.
 
Here's an example of some of the repairs I found on my Champ.
It's a repair of a cracked rib near the front spar opening, only one out of three rivets is really driven.
I could do better riveting if I closed my eyes and threw a hammer at it.
That's what you can find on 70 year old planes that were fixed on a tight budget on the farm. IMG_6280 (1024x683).jpg
 
DFH65 said:
I would bet that 90% plus of airplanes out there have some illegal repair in their past. Doesn't mean they aren't airworthy. I was just trying to help give a different more positive spin on it.

Yeah it is frustrating to find stuff you didn't know about or wasn't represented properly. Having said that buyer beware and all that, and sometimes the price justifies overlooking a few things or not worrying about looking too closely until after you bought it.

Hope it all works out.
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Yeah DFH, my post came across a little dickish, sorry about that. I'd be ****ed about finding damage like that, but the airplane is probably fine.
 
Doc Holliday said:
Yea, but look at all the money they saved on annuals. :rolleyes:
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There was a 210 at our field getting some avionics work. Thy asked the shop for a quote on an annual while it’s there. Shop typically prints out list of that is recommended to review from Cessna. It’s like a 4 page list. They quote him something around 2 grand. Guy get really ticked off. Told the shop his last three annuals only cost 150$ each. But admitted most of the stuff on the list wasn’t done- said he’d get back to them...
 
champ driver said:
Here's an example of some of the repairs I found on my Champ.
It's a repair of a cracked rib near the front spar opening, only one out of three rivets is really driven.
I could do better riveting if I closed my eyes and threw a hammer at it.
That's what you can find on 70 year old planes that were fixed on a tight budget on the farm. View attachment 86507
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I feel like calling that a repair is being a bit generous
 
Many years ago a IA friend showed me something he had found in a plane during an annual. He found 3 bucking bars left in a wing that had been previously repaired. The plane had gone through 2 or 3 annuals and a since the repair.

Isn't bondo allowed on some airplanes for specific repairs?
 
These aircraft are OLD. Yeah, someone in the dim past did something hinky. The fact that the airplane has flown for thousands of hours since only highlights the degree they were overbuilt. A lot of this stuff just can't be seen by the naked eye of a non mechanic pilot.
 
benyflyguy said:
There was a 210 at our field getting some avionics work. Thy asked the shop for a quote on an annual while it’s there. Shop typically prints out list of that is recommended to review from Cessna. It’s like a 4 page list. They quote him something around 2 grand. Guy get really ticked off. Told the shop his last three annuals only cost 150$ each. But admitted most of the stuff on the list wasn’t done- said he’d get back to them...
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Let's say a typical annual on a well maintained 210 cost $2000/year. Our budget minded owner decides to find a shade tree who will annual his 210 for $150/year.

After 10 years, the shade tree mechanic dies and the 210 owner takes his aircraft to a reputable shop for annual. He gets a bill for $20,000 for the annual and necessary repairs.

Sooner or later someone is going to pay the cost of all the skipped maintenance. What was the old commercial? "Pay me now, or pay me later".
 
Doc Holliday said:
After 10 years, the shade tree mechanic dies and the 210 owner takes his aircraft to a reputable shop for annual. He gets a bill for $20,000 for the annual and necessary repairs.
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Could be even worse. Stuff that was starting to crack or corrode, say, would usually be easily stopdrilled or scrubbed clean and primed when it was discovered during good annuals. Ignore it for 10 years and now the part needs replacing, not repairing. Some of this stuff involves dismantling large parts of an airframe to do that.

One classic example is the spar carrythrough corrosion on the 177 and 210. If the headliner was being opened every year and the structure checked, the process would be spotted early and corrective action (cleaning and priming) would stop it permanently. But "economy" annuals overlook it until the pitting is beyond repair and a new carrythrough must be installed. They are, if you can get one at all, very expensive. Very. And installing it is expensive. It tends to make the airplane nearly worthless.
https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/cessna-210-wing-spar-ad-issued/

A picture: https://www.flyingmag.com/story/aircraft/faa-cessna-201-wing-spar-inspections/
 
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