Leaning mixture on ground near idle power

I've heard of people leaning during the climb in IO-520's. What is the procedure for that, and what is the rationale behind doing that?
 
I've heard of people leaning during the climb in IO-520's. What is the procedure for that, and what is the rationale behind doing that?

It can be done with engine monitoring.

With the IO-550 in the Cirrus, you can “Normalize” the EGT display at 1,000 ft or so, then lean to keep the same EGT throughout the climb. That assumes the Full Power mixture is set properly.
 
It can be done with engine monitoring.

With the IO-550 in the Cirrus, you can “Normalize” the EGT display at 1,000 ft or so, then lean to keep the same EGT throughout the climb. That assumes the Full Power mixture is set properly.

Makes sense. I have an EDM-701. It's about the most user unfriendly device ever made, but it does have a normalize mode.
 
I like to lean for taxi until it sounds like a muscle car with a big lopey cam (455BUick).
 
The way I had it taught was to start full rich, then lean until you get a slight increase in RPM. I think the logic is that at full rich idle the engine is too rich, so by leaning out you get a better combustion and a bump in RPM.. go past "peak" and you'll see a decrease
correct, that is where you should stop.
 
When I taught at Burnside-Ott back in the late ‘70’s, we had the students lean from hour 1, even back and forth to the practice area. Law of Primacy and all that. My impression at the time was it was largely to save fuel. And Item #1 before every maneuver was “Mixture—FULL RICH”.

It definitely is not just saving fuel. Especially back when the fuel had even more lead in it. I'd also be careful about going FULL RICH for a maneuver that you are doing at like 4500' MSL, cause you aren't going to be getting even close to full power to recover from that stall.

I've heard of people leaning during the climb in IO-520's. What is the procedure for that, and what is the rationale behind doing that?

Usually, you want to start leaning between 3000 and 5000 MSL, just like you would on the ground for density altitude. If it is hot and your climb rate is acceptable, I'd wait till 5000', but I definitely won't fly full rich above 5000'.

I like to lean for taxi until it sounds like a muscle car with a big lopey cam (455BUick).

I like to lean till it sounds like a very throaty air cooled 911. Which is basically is.
 
I've heard of people leaning during the climb in IO-520's. What is the procedure for that, and what is the rationale behind doing that?
Many installations that have a flow gauge (like Bonanzas) have you set a fuel flow for the climb, so yes you are leaning it to some extent.
 
I was taught that at 55% power and below it's impossible to do any damage by leaning. I lean on the ground until the engine stumbles and enrich just enough to smooth it out. With a carb, at least. My FI engine with electronic ignition will run smooth until it quits. No worries at taxi power. It's different in flight. The old procedure of pulling mixture until it stumbles and push it back in 3/4" doesn't work.
 
It definitely is not just saving fuel. Especially back when the fuel had even more lead in it...

100LL is only "low lead" compared to the old 100/130. It has a lot more lead than 80/87, which is a problem for those of use with engines designed to run that.
 
100LL is only "low lead" compared to the old 100/130. It has a lot more lead than 80/87, which is a problem for those of use with engines designed to run that.
I ran a lot of of 115-145 (purple) just had to clean the plugs very often :)
 
I have a fadec system, mixture is set by computer ,have only had plugs foul once in all the many hours.
the MA3SPA carb does not a FADEC system.
Or did you change the topic again.
 
I've always been a bit baffled by the concept of not leaning until 5,000' or 3,000' or some other arbitrary figure. Isn't the decrease of air density with altitude continuous, not a step function? In the Mooney I flew a lot, I set the engine monitor on one cylinder. It's take off EGT was always around 1280dF. I'd just keep twisting the mixture knob out every so often, depending on workload, to keep it at 1280 until I was at my cruise altitude. (Then the big mixture pull to LOP).
For my primary students I teach them to lean aggressively on the ground from lesson one. AND EXPLAIN WHY.
 
Forgets? Doesn't everyone make a last minute check of controls and instruments before adding takeoff power? Landings are mandatory, takeoffs are optional.

Bob

My money sucking hobby is cave diving, and for the last 5 years or so we've been diving rebreathers in caves. There are basic rules for cave diving derived from accident analysis that are never (supposed to be) broken. Something else that comes from accident analysis is the understanding that most of the time an accident isn't the result of a single failure, mistake or rule violation but rather occurs at the end of a chain of events that lead to an accident.

It's from that perspective that I understand why a CFI might just tell a student to "keep the engine full rich on the ground", or in many cases "just leave the mixture full rich below 5000'". Yes, it'll foul the plugs, and it might result in a bit more drop in RPM on a mag check. On the other hand Lycoming allows 150 rpm mag drop, and if the student just leaves the mixture full rich, they'll never forget and leave it too lean on takeoff or on descent after cruise. An argument can be made that it'll remove a potential link in the accident chain.

However, it's from that same perspective that I also feel it's important to lean the mixture aggressively on the ground (because it'll quit it they attempt to advance the the throttle on takeoff), and it also teaches students a lot more about operating aircraft engines properly, to get when needed and when appropriate: 1) maximum performance; 2) minimum stress on the engine; and 3) maximum range from the aircraft. In other words, if you *don't* teach the student to get the most out of the aircraft in terms of performance, you may be adding a link to the accident change, or you may be increasing the potential for engine failure, which adds a link to the chain.

For example, in my aircraft, the difference between running full rich at 74% power and properly leaning at 74% power is 3 gallons per hour (8 gph versus 11 gph) and that ends up being a 1.1 hour difference in endurance and 125 miles difference in range. It's important for a student to understand that as it has significant implications in the real world.
 
Serious question - running rich would not ruin an engine, just foul the plugs. Running lean would ruin an engine. Thus, maybe the flight school leaned to (pun intended) running rich at the cost of more plugs vs running properly, but at a higher risk of someone running too lean and costing money to fix a over heated engine?

Just trying to figure it out. Or maybe the simple answer is the right answer - easier just to skip that mixture leaning thing.

Given what you've asked it wounds like you are talking about leaning in general, not just on the ground.

One of the persistent aviation myths out there is that running lean will cause burnt valves. That's not only not the case, it's exactly the opposite.

A too rich mixture will result in excessive deposits in the cylinder, both carbon and lead, the latter especially in an aircraft engine designed for 80/87 octane avgas running on 100LL (which still has 4 times as much lead as 80/87 avgas did). When those deposits form on the exhaust valve seats they:
- reduce the contact between the valve and the seat, which reduces the ability for the valve to transfer heat to the cylinder head, and causes the valve to run hot;
- increase the carbon that gets in between the valve guide and valve stem, which causes wear that in turn causes the valve to "wobble" on the seat; and in either case,
- increase the exhaust gas leaking past the valve, which increases heat at that point on the valve.

Once the valve gets too hot in that hot spot, it'll warp, and from that point forward failure is inevitable. The hot spot on the edge of the valve will get so hot that it gets brittle and eventually breaks. If the owner is lucky the broken piece goes out the exhaust and the cylinder just loses power. If the owner isn't so lucky the piece rattle around inside the cylinder chewing up the piston, the cylinder head, and the cylinder walls. If the owner is really unlucky, it may chew everything up enough, including the rings, to put significant metal particles into the oil, damaging the crank, cam, etc.

In addition to allowing you to lean with more precision, an engine analyzer can help prevent a valve failure as a improperly sealing or warped valve can be detected before it fails as the CHT will be lower (less power produced in the cylinder) while the EGT goes way up as the still burning mixture slips past the exhaust valve. If you have a cylinder that displays those traits, you need to have it bore scoped ASAP to check the exhaust valve.

----

Leaning aggressively on the ground (so that it stumbles or quits if you throttle up more than few hundred RPM) helps prevent excessive carbon or lead buildup during low rpm ground operations. In the air, the same is true, plus proper leaning will keep you out of the "red zone" of engine operation where you encounter maximum CHT and maximum engine stress. Mike Bush talks about that in general terms here:

https://www.jpinstruments.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Mike-Bush-Red-BoxRed-Fin.pdf

As discussed in the link, at maximum continuous power the red zone is the widest. It gets narrower as power is reduced until it disappears entirely at around 65%-60% power. Below that point you won't hurt the engine with the mixture knob.

One of the methods that is taught on aircraft without an EGT is to just "lean until it stumbles and then just enrich a little bit until it runs smooth". I've heard that simplified even further as "lean until it stumbles and then push it back in 1/2". That's pretty fool proof below about 65% power. However at higher settings, in some aircraft, it can leave the engine near peak power, slightly rich of peak (ROP) EGT where the engine experiences maximum stress and maximum CHT.

If you have an EGT, at high power settings (70%-75%) you should keep it significantly rich of peak EGT to ensure you are on the rich side of the red zone. At high power cruise at low altitudes, I'll keep it 100-150 degrees ROP. At higher altitudes, where full throttle ends up being something at or below 65% power, you can run a lot closer to peak on the rich side of peak.

If your engine will run smoothly lean of peak (LOP), staying 50-100 degrees lean of peak will keep you on the lean side of the red zone. At lower power settings you can run a little closer to peak or at peak.

In either case, as noted above and in the link, below about 60-65%, you won't hurt your engine wherever its running smooth.
 
Makes sense. I have an EDM-701. It's about the most user unfriendly device ever made, but it does have a normalize mode.

Once you've done the lean find a time or two (to either ROP or LOP), you can pretty much ignore that mode. You'll find the same cylinder is either always the leanest, or two cylinders are so close that it doesn't matter. Once you've identified the leanest cylinder, just select that one on the digital display and lean using the digital EGT for that cylinder.

Once set, just monitor the EGT on the hottest cylinder. For my engine #2 (left front) is the leanest, and #3 (right rear) is the hottest for CHT.

"Normalize" mode just levels the display and reduces the EGT bar intervals from 25 degrees to 10 degrees once things have been leaned a few minutes in cruise.

I carry the quick reference page in a pocket in case I have to remember what button to push or hold to make it do something I don't normally do with it.
 
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