Third Class Medical and Alchol Offenses

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I received a third-class student medical on November 22,2019 from our local ASM. I just received a letter today from the FAA AMCD asking me for numerous documents regarding previous alcohol offenses the most previous from over 12 years prior. These items were self-disclosed upon my initial application. I was wrongfully arrested for 1st offense DUI when I was 18 which was dropped immediately to minor in possession of alcohol and then I was arrested when I was in college at 21 for 1st offense DUI which was dropped to a reckless driving offense. Although the arrest at 18 was a dropped charge it obviously still and always will show an arrested for DUI. Been a clean record ever since then and I turn 34 in a few months. Does anyone think they will deny my application for my third class medical over this? Will I ever be able to get a 1st class medical as my end goal is to get my multi/commercial ratings? This has me a little rattled. The letter simply says my application has not been denied but will be evaluated based on the documents submitted. I hope I have not just wasted thousands of dollars on PPL for nothing. I currently hold A&P, IA, and part 107 ratings which were achieved years after last arrest. AA meetings were attended for over year when I was arrested at 21. First arrest was a .160 and second was a .177. Please spare the lectures and life lessons on my past ignorant choices. I own my past mistakes and use them as examples for others I come across in the industry of how stupid and taxing it can be on a personal life and career. Any help or insight is greatly appreciated.
 
Seek out the best Senior HIMS AME in your region that has lots of successful experience with cases such as this. This page will provide a starting point: https://www.faa.gov/pilots/amelocator/

Talk with him/her about your case and follow the guidance provided.

Because a HIMS AME know how the FAA will proceed and what they want for an alcohol or neurological case, they are the correct people to listen to. Not random people on an Internet forum.
 
Yeah. I have reached out to the AME that issued and I am still awaiting a response. Another classic example of how life decisions can impact you for the long haul. I think the thing that really puzzles folks when I tell them about my past is that after I was arrested at 21, I changed my degree over to Forensic Behaviors after my encounter with the justice system. After years in the industry I really want my PPL and to own my own airplane someday. May be lost cause now from stupid decisions made long ago.
 
Yeah. I have reached out to the AME that issued and I am still awaiting a response. Another classic example of how life decisions can impact you for the long haul. I think the thing that really puzzles folks when I tell them about my past is that after I was arrested at 21, I changed my degree over to Forensic Behaviors after my encounter with the justice system. After years in the industry I really want my PPL and to own my own airplane someday. May be lost cause now from stupid decisions made long ago.
Note I said a Senior HIMS AME. If your issuing AME is one, good. If not, he or she is not likely to be of much assistance other than to tell you you need to see a Senior HIMS AME and provide a name.

From past discussions on this forum, we know the process is complicated, long, and exacting. Getting the ring or bad information at this point could cause significant delays while you chase down the wrong rabbit trail.

See the HIMS AME and get on the proper track.
 
Understood. Reached out to a senior AMS/HMIS as well. Awaiting a response. Will poke them both again on Monday. Appreciate the insight. Will keep you posted once I find something out.
 
My understanding is that with multiple DUIs they will be looking for evidence of alcohol treatment followed by at least 24 months of sobriety. You disclosed the offenses, so that's a major plus and leaves you still in the game, as opposed to lying about it. It also sounds like between the AA attendance and 12-13 years of sobriety (or at least no evidence of other than sobriety) it looks like you'll meet those criteria.
 
Thanks Larry! I was also on 24 month reporting probation to include drug and alcohol testing after my last arrest as part of the court order, not to mention I've worked for 135 and 145 operations the past 12 years requiring random drug and alcohol screenings. The best support group I've ever had in it ,next the family, has been the aviation community. Started cleaning airplanes to get through college and now I'm DOM for a major corporations' aviation department. Let this be a lesson for those reading this thread. I had to pay A LOT of money and fight like hell to get where I am today because of those decisions I made over 12 years ago. They are still haunting me now and probably will for the rest of my life. Every action has consequences.
 
If you walked out of the office with a medical, your AME screwed up royally. Your situation should have been a mandatory deferral. You have little choice at this point but to provide the information they ask for and wait. The multiple events and high BAC doesn't bode well for you. You're going to have to do what you can to get the records of the events. They'll scrutinize your personal statement for indications of other substance abuse events. The fact that your driving record is clear helps a tiny bit. They'll also want to see no other substance problems and ACTUAL treatment (a year of AA isn't likely to be sufficient). Understand when the FAA says sobriety here, they mean COMPLETE ABSTINANCE. If you want to fly, you have to give up drinking entirely with that record. The 135 drug screen program is a big factor in your favor.

The good news is if you can convince them to issue, that it's not keyed to any particular class (so you should be able to get the first given no other medical issues).
 
Understood. Reached out to a senior AMS/HMIS as well. Awaiting a response. Will poke them both again on Monday. Appreciate the insight. Will keep you posted once I find something out.
Don’t just use Doc Bruce’s how to start page. Use the page I provided to find a HIMS close to you and engage his own her services.
 
If you walked out of the office with a medical, your AME screwed up royally. Your situation should have been a mandatory deferral. You have little choice at this point but to provide the information they ask for and wait. The multiple events and high BAC doesn't bode well for you. You're going to have to do what you can to get the records of the events. They'll scrutinize your personal statement for indications of other substance abuse events. The fact that your driving record is clear helps a tiny bit. They'll also want to see no other substance problems and ACTUAL treatment (a year of AA isn't likely to be sufficient). Understand when the FAA says sobriety here, they mean COMPLETE ABSTINANCE. If you want to fly, you have to give up drinking entirely with that record. The 135 drug screen program is a big factor in your favor.

The good news is if you can convince them to issue, that it's not keyed to any particular class (so you should be able to get the first given no other medical issues).

(To the OP) Normally, I'd agree with the statement above that a year of AA would not be sufficient "treatment" for someone with a substance abuse diagnosis. I started my career in law enforcement and it doesn't take many victims killed by drunk drivers to drive your tolerance for driving under the influence to zero.

On the other hand, you went from DUI incidents at age 18 and 21 to nothing at all in the last 12 years. If you were chemically dependent and still using, that wouldn't happen. And you deserve credit where credit is due. Whether it was an alcohol problem or a "young and stupid" poor judgment problem, or both, you appear to have addressed it successfully.

The FAA position on treatment is interesting. For example if you have 1 incident, and you go to in-patient or out-patient treatment voluntarily (as opposed to court ordered education) it's an automatic deferral, regardless of BAC, only 1 incident, low BAC, etc. In other words, treatment in and of itself is looked at as indicative of a substance abuse problem on the alcohol status report.

If the FAA then demands evidence of treatment after a second occurence, and if they won't accept your court ordered AA as "treatment", along with 12 years of clean motor vehicle records, and 12 years of part 135 drug screens to support the lack of an active substance abuse issue, and or evidence of the effectiveness of the "treatment" then what? It doesn't make sense to require treatment 12 years after the fact, when the applicant has a history that indicates a lack of substance abuse issues. Even if they required current treatment, no one running a program would ethically put you into a program, since you would not meet the criteria for a substance abuse diagnosis. But I spent 12 years in the federal government and bureaucrats never ceased to amaze me when it came to throwing common sense out the window.

None the less, I suspect worst case they'll require a substance abuse evaluation to document the lack of a substance abuse diagnosis, to backstop your clean DMV records, etc. If you've been abstinent for 12 years you'll have no problem with that evaluation as you'd meet none of the eleven DSM-V criteria for a substance use disorder. You need at least 2 to be diagnosed with even a mild alcohol use disorder.

Best case, common sense will prevail and they'll recognize 12 years with no issues along with a clean driving record, and the part 135 testing, and just issue you the 3rd class medical.
 
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Larry...This is abuse, and tolerance. (.16 and .177). FAA is about, have you ever in your life (exception, see “abstinence”, below). Your answer is generally correct if there is just ONE offense >10 years ago.

The key here, is if one can substantiate a claim of abstinence (>10 years of) since those distant two....two anytime in a lifetime is automatic abuse, a special issuance and requires two years of monitoring while flying. But if you have ANY after- consumption at all, and cannot substantiate abstinence, that is going to be “dependency”. After TWO blows if you didn’t stop, it will be judged to “have a hold on you”. That requires rehab....which is really just intense education.

Part 135 randoming is NOT adequate to determine abstinence. It merely is an “on the job“ condition monitor. 4 tests a year, max...in not adequate proof of abstinence.....

...now if he can substantiate abstinence and even has some alcohol recovery activities, knows the steps....he has INSIGHT, which alcoholics not in remission never have...and he has a chance.
 
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Larry...This is abuse, and tolerance. (.16 and .177). FAA is about, have you ever in your life (exception, see “abstinence”, below). Your answer is generally correct if there is just ONE offense >10 years ago.

The key here, is if one can substantiate a claim of abstinence (>10 years of) since those distant two....two anytime in a lifetime is automatic abuse, a special issuance and requires two years of monitoring while flying. But if you have ANY after- consumption at all, and cannot substantiate abstinence, that is going to be “dependency”. After TWO blows if you didn’t stop, it will be judged to “have a hold on you”. That requires rehab....which is really just intense education.

Part 135 randoming is NOT adequate to determine abstinence. It merely is an “on the job“ condition monitor. 4 tests a year, max...in not adequate proof of abstinence.....

...now if he can substantiate abstinence and even has some alcohol recovery activities, knows the steps....he has INSIGHT, which alcoholics not in remission never have...and he has a chance.

I agree that BACs of .16 and .177 are alcohol abuse, but let's put that in context:

- At .15 you will have much less control over your balance and voluntary muscles and walking and talking will be noticeably impaired.
- At .20 to .29 stupor, confusion and disorientation are common. Standing and walking may require assistance motor control and equilibrium will have deteriorated significantly. Blackouts will start to occur as the BAC approaches .30.
- At .30 to 0.39 people you're into toxic territory where the person may become unconscious and the potential for death increases. Along with a loss of cognitive function there are physiological effects such as a severe increase in heart rate, irregular breathing and loss of bladder control.
- At .4 life threatening symptoms such as coma, cardiac and respiratory arrest can occur.

The above all assume a normal functioning person. To put that in further context and to address the "tolerance" issue consider that either coming on or going off shift, I used to read the statewide BAC printouts for all the DUI arrests in the preceding 24 hours. BACs of .2 and .3 were not uncommon and there was usually at least one BAC over .4 and once a week or so I'd see one at or slightly above .5. Keep in mind these were BACs of people actually driving motor vehicles (albeit badly), not people passed out or in a coma. That is "tolerance". In fact those drivers were serious alcoholics who would probably be experiencing DTs at anything close to the legal limit since they need alcohol as an inhibitor in their synapses to function normally.

My intent here is not to condone alcohol abuse but rather to illustrate that you cannot presume "tolerance" from two BACs of .16 and .177. A 150 pound high school kid can hit .16 with 6 shots on his first ever drinking experience and get all six down before he feels the effects of the first. He'll probably be a bit unstable when he walks and he might slur his speech, and it counts as alcohol abuse - but it would not in that circumstance indicate tolerance.

My intent here is also to point out that the FAA's criteria, as you describe it - "two anytime in a lifetime is automatic abuse" - is not consistent with the DSM-V diagnostic criteria and is not a good fit for the OP's situation, as described with 12 years of no alcohol related issues.

More to the point, look at the symptoms of a .15 BAC, then consider how many pilots could still honestly claim not to have had at least two instances where they were impaired to this level. The distinction then between fairly common young adult excessive drinking and "alcohol related events" by the FAA standard is whether an arrest and conviction occurred.

In the OP's case the issue isn't substance dependence or tolerance, the issue was poor judgement under the influence of alcohol to the point that he drove on one occasion, and had minor consumption charge in the other. If the FAA goes down the path you are suggesting, it'll be asking him to prove a negative - to prove that he has not been drinking at all, when the more critical issue is that there is no evidence in the past 12 years that he has made the same errors in judgement or abused alcohol in the manner that resulted in the previous "alcohol related events".

Once again, from a professional career counselor standpoint the proper way forward would be to either accept the alcohol event status report as is, accepting the evidence that the applicant has maintained sobriety for at least 2 years, or move the application forward after an alcohol evaluation or assessment by a HIMS AME.

The regs found at 14 CFR section 67.307(4)(i-ii) define substance abuse for the FAA:

(4) Substance dependence, except where there is established clinical evidence, satisfactory to the Federal Air Surgeon, of recovery, including sustained total abstinence from the substance(s) for not less than the preceding 2 years. As used in this section—

(i) “Substance” includes: alcohol; other sedatives and hypnotics; anxiolytics; opioids; central nervous system stimulants such as cocaine, amphetamines, and similarly acting sympathomimetics; hallucinogens; phencyclidine or similarly acting arylcyclohexylamines; cannabis; inhalants; and other psychoactive drugs and chemicals; and


(ii) “Substance dependence” means a condition in which a person is dependent on a substance, other than tobacco or ordinary xanthine-containing (e.g., caffeine) beverages, as evidenced by—

(A) Increased tolerance;

(B) Manifestation of withdrawal symptoms;

(C) Impaired control of use; or

(D) Continued use despite damage to physical health or impairment of social, personal, or occupational functioning.


Furthermore, the regs at section 67.307(b) address and define substance abuse in the last 2 years:

(b) No substance abuse within the preceding 2 years defined as:

(1) Use of a substance in a situation in which that use was physically hazardous, if there has been at any other time an instance of the use of a substance also in a situation in which that use was physically hazardous;

(2) A verified positive drug test result, an alcohol test result of 0.04 or greater alcohol concentration, or a refusal to submit to a drug or alcohol test required by the U.S. Department of Transportation or an agency of the U.S. Department of Transportation; or

(3) Misuse of a substance that the Federal Air Surgeon, based on case history and appropriate, qualified medical judgment relating to the substance involved, finds—

(i) Makes the person unable to safely perform the duties or exercise the privileges of the airman certificate applied for or held; or

(ii) May reasonably be expected, for the maximum duration of the airman medical certificate applied for or held, to make the person unable to perform those duties or exercise those privileges.


There is no evidence that the OP demonstrates (1) for the last 12 years;
There is no positive test results under (2) - what you call "merely an 'on the job' condition monitor", even though such testing has a specific mention in the regs, specifically related to exactly the question at hand - and in fact it's exactly the opposite he has successfully passed random tests under part 135 for the last 12 years; and
The AME who originally issued the cert found nothing of concern under (3)(i-ii).

The only questions then are:
- What if anything will the FAA decide is necessary to further support the AME's decision under (3) - HIMS AME or alcohol evaluation; and /or
- How far the FAA wants to over step the intent clearly indicated in the above regs in the course of applying criteria on worksheets and sub regulatory guidance in a situation where the applicant has demonstrated safe and responsible behavior as well as no evidence of addiction in the last 12 years?

Sure, the FAA could do it your way with a special issuance and 2 years of follow up, but as tax payer and counselor, that strikes me as a massive waste of staff time and taxpayer resources in this case, where the applicant meets neither the FAA or DSM-V criteria for dependence and is instead just hanging up on two line in the FAA status report, which in this instance in the OPs situation is at odds with the requirements in the reg.

I really don't think the OP has much to worry about unless the FAA's cheese has totally slid off it's cracker and it's looking for excuses to deny medical certificates to qualified applicants.
 
I guess you're a HIMS AME, but i don't seem to find you on the federal list.....sigh.
And that's clearly NOT true because you are trying to get there from reason....There hasn't been a reg change/comment period since 2007. It's all done by changing the "definitions". And normal human comprehension of legalese is hard.

(3) Misuse of a substance that the Federal Air Surgeon, based on case history and appropriate, qualified medical judgment relating to the substance involved, finds—..
has been interpreted as ANY TWO is abuse. The second one makes "abuse" by what is the current interpretation.

("4) Substance dependence, except where there is established clinical evidence, satisfactory to the Federal Air Surgeon, of recovery, including sustained total abstinence from the substance(s) for not less than the preceding 2 years. As used in this section—"
....has been interpreted (by the federal psychiatrist), as any use after abuse.

Then there's (4)ii(b):
(b) No substance abuse within the preceding 2 years defined as:
(1) Use of a substance in a situation in which that use was physically hazardous, if there has been at any other time an instance of the use of a substance also in a situation in which that use was physically hazardous;
...which tells you that the second event is "abuse"

I really think that giving bad advise is a disservice. You gotta known what they consider that the words mean. It'd be different if you said "IMO". He's looking for guidance.

Phillip, give GOOD advice.
 
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The faa literally makes there own definitions and criteria for abuse and dependence. You can go to a normal psychiatrist or physician that is not related to the faa and they would strongly disagree with the faa. The real doctors who don’t practice bull **** bureaucratic medicine follow the dsm-v which is really what the faa should be using as well. The doctors that work for the faa are a huge joke and probably weren’t very good practitioners of real medicine hence why they chose to become bureaucrats so they wouldn’t have to play by the rules that real doctors use. I’m beyond disgusted with the faa and how they approach these issues and can almost guarantee that if an faa doc has a family member in these same situations that magically that person would have a much easier time than any other airmen.
 
jstone said:
The faa literally makes there own definitions and criteria for abuse and dependence. You can go to a normal psychiatrist or physician that is not related to the faa and they would strongly disagree with the faa. The real doctors who don’t practice bull **** bureaucratic medicine follow the dsm-v which is really what the faa should be using as well.
They tried. They got assailed by Congress. Certain unnamed congresscritters.
So they "interepreted" differently. They were reminded that Congress could take away the HIMS program (google Lyle Prouse) if they didn't do so.

jstone said:
The doctors that work for the faa are a huge joke and probably weren’t very good practitioners of real medicine hence why they chose to become bureaucrats so they wouldn’t have to play by the rules that real doctors use.
Most were military physicians and know to follow orders from the top.
jstone said:
I’m beyond disgusted with the faa and how they approach these issues and can almost guarantee that if an faa doc has a family member in these same situations that magically that person would have a much easier time than any other airmen.
Very NOT TRUE. The example was Randy Babbitt, who blew 0.07 and was made to jump through the abuse hoops. So the bottom line is (in by best Foghorn Leghorn voice),
Just don't be drinkin.
Just don't be getting a record.
The first offense is a warning shot.
God help you if you drink after that.

My understanding is that with multiple DUIs they will be looking for evidence of alcohol treatment followed by at least 24 months of sobriety. You disclosed the offenses, so that's a major plus and leaves you still in the game, as opposed to lying about it. It also sounds like between the AA attendance and 12-13 years of sobriety (or at least no evidence of other than sobriety) it looks like you'll meet those criteria.
Multiple as in 3 DUIs, without rehab, can only be issued after two years of proven sobriety (pee in the cup) and the concurrence of a HIMS psychiatrist....and that, 3rd class only.

Abuse if credibly NOT dependency (again by the FAA's criteria of "ever in your life" tolerance, withdrawal, cont'd use in the face of adverse outcomes, blackouts, or preoccupation with use...) is 4-6 months of provable sobriety and concurrence of a HIMS psychiatrist.

IMO the OP is looking/hoping for an Abuse, monitored special issuance.....and I can't engage to pro bono. Too much liability.
 
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Sadly I find myself in the same position, “hoping” for an abuse diagnosis. In that regard I wish the FAA didn’t completely march to their own drum. I have never had an issue with any law, family, or work...but abuse can be drinking too much, ever...even responsibly in your own home, or on vacation. With that definition, I’d put good money on about 99% of the population being diagnosed with abuse.

But, it’s a game we have to play as perspective airmen. ‍♂️♂️
 
It just really seems like the faa tries to make the entire HIMS process as miserable as possible. It should take 3 months to process an SI, 6 months max. I’ve been waiting for just over 12 months now and I’ve heard absolutely nothing from the faa. I called dc one time and inquired and all they could tell me was that my files were in line to be reviewed and that the processing time is 13-18 weeks. I knew they were full of **** when they told me that because at that point they already had my files for 24 weeks. They can say it’s not punitive as much as they want but the way they handle everything not only creates more of a workload for them but makes people wish they never told the truth on an application in some instances. Making someone wait a year is automatically meant to punish them if they say so or not. They would cut down on so many phone calls and aggravation if they just let the airman know which month they would get a response about there application for special issuance.
 
@bbchien Bruce, just out of curiosity, how does the FAA handle DUI for someone flying without a medical, say a Sport Pilot, a glider pilot, or someone on Basic Med?
 
Take comfort in the fact it's not just alc-ies that the FAA is crapping on. The FAA has never been able to meet their own processing time standards for **ANY** special issuance. They actually, had a somewhat reasonable work around for AME-assist, but they backtracked from that for airmen not already in revenue service. Largely the policy of the FAA is to crap on the non-commercial aviation in general. Their recent COVID policies demonstrate that. "We realize general aviation is important to the economy and transportation infrastructure, but we don't think you're worthy of any consideration given the current crisis or our inability to function as a responsible government agency."
 
You’d figure that since so many airline pilots are grounded right now (covid 19) they might think “gee maybe we should start processing non revs right now since most revs are grounded and they couldn’t go back to work even if they are processed quickly” or is that to intelligent for the moronic doctors that work in dc?
 
Very NOT TRUE. The example was Randy Babbitt, who blew 0.07 and was made to jump through the abuse hoops.

So you’re telling me that the faa at some point revoked or suspended babbitt’s medical? Does that mean he spent nearly a year without his medical while the faa took their time since he was now considered non rev? I just don’t see them treating his case like any other airman since he was the administrator even if he resigned after his dui arrest.
 
And that's clearly NOT true because you are trying to get there from reason
Something which should always be kept in mind when talking about drug and alcohol use and our society's (not just the FAA's) tendency to swing between extremes.
 
The last thing a regulating agency ( and evaluating doctors for that matter) wants to do is to give an SI like a substance abuse SI and screw up. There have been several, if not many, tragic cases of habitual substance abusers paying the ultimate price. There have been cases of paid professional pilots, showing up to work sauced, planning on flying. These people need to screened out and denied if possible.

I get that people make mistakes, and I'm thankful that these people get the opportunity to show they have their problem under control and can be trusted to fly (if you get a dui you have a problem). It would be very easy for the FAA to take the position that if you get a DUI you are done flying.

So when I see people complaining how difficult the process is and saying it should be easier, I wonder if these people really understand the severity of what they did. The FAA didn't screw up, the docs working with you didn't screw up, you, the guy who got the dui screwed up. There is a process to get back to or to start flying. Buckle down and get it done, give them what they need with a smile. Show that you understand this is your screw up you are trying to fix and you have fixed it. Part of showing it's fixed is being contrite and not complaining about the process that can put you back in the pilot's seat.

I really don't know what goes through an evaluator's mind when a candidate starts complaining that the process should be quicker, it's too hard or unfair or the candidate basically has a not great attitude toward working to get the SI because they think it is punitive. But I'm guessing the evaluators wonder if the candidate who acts like this gets it. I'm guessing they are much more cautious to make sure they don't approve someone who should not be approved. It just seems self defeating for an SI applicant to act like this. I suppose self defeating behavior is part of the problem with substance abusers.
 
So you’re telling me that the faa at some point revoked or suspended babbitt’s medical? Does that mean he spent nearly a year without his medical while the faa took their time since he was now considered non rev? I just don’t see them treating his case like any other airman since he was the administrator even if he resigned after his dui arrest.
Does an arrest without a conviction or administrative action result in revocation or suspension of a medical certificate? The following FAA Web page makes it sound like it does not:

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...nvestigations/airmen_duidwi/duidwi_reporting/
 
Does an arrest without a conviction or administrative action result in revocation or suspension of a medical certificate? The following FAA Web page makes it sound like it does not:

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...nvestigations/airmen_duidwi/duidwi_reporting/
That page deals with the reporting requirement under 61.15, which has nothing to do with the medical application. The penalties it refers to are those for "Failure to Send a Notification Letter." The page doesn't say anything about what happens when you do report.

Can an arrest without a conviction or administrative action result in revocation or suspension of a medical certificate? Sure. Why not?
 
That page deals with the reporting requirement under 61.15, which has nothing to do with the medical application. The penalties it refers to are those for "Failure to Send a Notification Letter." The page doesn't say anything about what happens when you do report.

I was addressing the revocation or suspension portion of the post I was replying to.

Can an arrest without a conviction or administrative action result in revocation or suspension of a medical certificate? Sure. Why not?

I don't doubt that it can if the FAA finds out about it, but if reporting under 61.15 is not required without a conviction or administrative action, how would the FAA find out about it between MedXpress applications if the pilot is not famous enough to receive news-media coverage? The context of the discussion was whether Babbitt received more favorable treatment than non-FAA personnel would have.
 
Revoked suspended denied etc, was Babbitt ever actually GROUNDED when the faa supposedly made the decision that Babbitt would have to jump thru the abuse hoops of HIMS like the average joe. I guarantee you that he didn’t based on the fact that he was the head of the faa and proabably made numerous connections and friends while in his position.
 
Revoked suspended denied etc, was Babbitt ever actually GROUNDED when the faa supposedly made the decision that Babbitt would have to jump thru the abuse hoops of HIMS like the average joe. I guarantee you that he didn’t based on the fact that he was the head of the faa and proabably made numerous connections and friends while in his position.
Do we know that he applied for a renewal of his medical certificate?
 
.... if reporting under 61.15 is not required without a conviction or administrative action, how would the FAA find out about it between MedXpress applications ....


In that situation, if the pilot is using Basic Med it appears they wouldn't find out about it at all, since there's no MedXpress application involved and no medical records get sent to the FAA.
 
I don't doubt that it can if the FAA finds out about it, but if reporting under 61.15 is not required without a conviction or administrative action, how would the FAA find out about it between MedXpress applications if the pilot is not famous enough to receive news-media coverage? The context of the discussion was whether Babbitt received more favorable treatment than non-FAA personnel would have.
Kind of true. If no report is required (which I'd guess covers less than 5% of DUI arrests) it would take some other event for the FAA t know about it.

(Come to think of it, that's probably also true if a report is required but the pilot doesn't make it.)
 
Can an arrest without a conviction or administrative action result in revocation or suspension of a medical certificate? Sure. Why not?

In FAA Order 2150C, there is a footnote on page 8-11 (Emergency Actions) which states that a violation under 61.15 demonstrates a lack of qualification to hold a pilot certificate.

That same area, section 13.A. (3) states: Emergency action is appropriate when the holder of a pilot certificate who lacks qualifications to hold that certificate and is required to, but does not, hold a valid medical certificate operates an aircraft. In addition, emergency action is appropriate when the holder of a pilot certificate who lacks qualifications to hold that certificate has met the medical education and examination requirements for operating certain small aircraft without an airman medical certificate under 14 C.F.R. part 68.

14 CFR 68 is Basicmed

So not only "why not", but affirmatively Yes, it can.
 
In FAA Order 2150C, there is a footnote on page 8-11 (Emergency Actions) which states that a violation under 61.15 demonstrates a lack of qualification to hold a pilot certificate.

That same area, section 13.A. (3) states: Emergency action is appropriate when the holder of a pilot certificate who lacks qualifications to hold that certificate and is required to, but does not, hold a valid medical certificate operates an aircraft. In addition, emergency action is appropriate when the holder of a pilot certificate who lacks qualifications to hold that certificate has met the medical education and examination requirements for operating certain small aircraft without an airman medical certificate under 14 C.F.R. part 68.

I'm not seeing anything in 61.15 that makes it a violation to not report arrests that didn't result in a conviction or motor vehicle action. (See full text of 61.15 below.)

14 CFR 68 is Basicmed

So not only "why not", but affirmatively Yes, it can.
Most BasicMed holders probably don't hold an unexpired FAA medical certificate. As I understand it, the FAA can't revoke or suspend expired medical certificates.

Is there some law or regulation that allows the FAA to invalidate an otherwise-valid BasicMed qualification when no regulation has been violated?

§61.15 Offenses involving alcohol or drugs.

(a) A conviction for the violation of any Federal or State statute relating to the growing, processing, manufacture, sale, disposition, possession, transportation, or importation of narcotic drugs, marijuana, or depressant or stimulant drugs or substances is grounds for:

(1) Denial of an application for any certificate, rating, or authorization issued under this part for a period of up to 1 year after the date of final conviction; or

(2) Suspension or revocation of any certificate, rating, or authorization issued under this part.

(b) Committing an act prohibited by §91.17(a) or §91.19(a) of this chapter is grounds for:

(1) Denial of an application for a certificate, rating, or authorization issued under this part for a period of up to 1 year after the date of that act; or

(2) Suspension or revocation of any certificate, rating, or authorization issued under this part.

(c) For the purposes of paragraphs (d), (e), and (f) of this section, a motor vehicle action means:

(1) A conviction after November 29, 1990, for the violation of any Federal or State statute relating to the operation of a motor vehicle while intoxicated by alcohol or a drug, while impaired by alcohol or a drug, or while under the influence of alcohol or a drug;

(2) The cancellation, suspension, or revocation of a license to operate a motor vehicle after November 29, 1990, for a cause related to the operation of a motor vehicle while intoxicated by alcohol or a drug, while impaired by alcohol or a drug, or while under the influence of alcohol or a drug; or

(3) The denial after November 29, 1990, of an application for a license to operate a motor vehicle for a cause related to the operation of a motor vehicle while intoxicated by alcohol or a drug, while impaired by alcohol or a drug, or while under the influence of alcohol or a drug.

(d) Except for a motor vehicle action that results from the same incident or arises out of the same factual circumstances, a motor vehicle action occurring within 3 years of a previous motor vehicle action is grounds for:

(1) Denial of an application for any certificate, rating, or authorization issued under this part for a period of up to 1 year after the date of the last motor vehicle action; or

(2) Suspension or revocation of any certificate, rating, or authorization issued under this part.

(e) Each person holding a certificate issued under this part shall provide a written report of each motor vehicle action to the FAA, Civil Aviation Security Division (AMC-700), P.O. Box 25810, Oklahoma City, OK 73125, not later than 60 days after the motor vehicle action. The report must include:

(1) The person's name, address, date of birth, and airman certificate number;

(2) The type of violation that resulted in the conviction or the administrative action;

(3) The date of the conviction or administrative action;

(4) The State that holds the record of conviction or administrative action; and

(5) A statement of whether the motor vehicle action resulted from the same incident or arose out of the same factual circumstances related to a previously reported motor vehicle action.

(f) Failure to comply with paragraph (e) of this section is grounds for:

(1) Denial of an application for any certificate, rating, or authorization issued under this part for a period of up to 1 year after the date of the motor vehicle action; or

(2) Suspension or revocation of any certificate, rating, or authorization issued under this part.
 
I'm not seeing anything in 61.15 that makes it a violation to not report arrests that didn't result in a conviction or motor vehicle action. (See full text of 61.15 below.)


Most BasicMed holders probably don't hold an unexpired FAA medical certificate. As I understand it, the FAA can't revoke or suspend expired medical certificates.

Is there some law or regulation that allows the FAA to invalidate an otherwise-valid BasicMed qualification when no regulation has been violated?


It's not in 61.51, it's in FAA order 2150, which contains the "standard" punishments for violations. There was a question "can the FAA suspend your pilots certificate for 61.51", to which the answer is absolutely yes, as an emergency action. I'm sure that if you jump through the HIMS hoops under a SI for a 3rd class, you could get it reinstated. So it isn't basicmed that they go after, it's your certificate.

That does not cover the case where you don't report. But if you get caught not reporting, that's probably permanent and potentially criminal. Just because you don't have a medical certificate does not mean they don't have other tools.

It seems like there might be a hole there because there's no trigger to periodically check your National Drivers Registry records unless it happens at Basicmed renewal.
 
In FAA Order 2150C, there is a footnote on page 8-11 (Emergency Actions) which states that a violation under 61.15 demonstrates a lack of qualification to hold a pilot certificate.

That same area, section 13.A. (3) states: Emergency action is appropriate when the holder of a pilot certificate who lacks qualifications to hold that certificate and is required to, but does not, hold a valid medical certificate operates an aircraft. In addition, emergency action is appropriate when the holder of a pilot certificate who lacks qualifications to hold that certificate has met the medical education and examination requirements for operating certain small aircraft without an airman medical certificate under 14 C.F.R. part 68.

14 CFR 68 is Basicmed

So not only "why not", but affirmatively Yes, it can.
I doubt you'd find a revocation based on failure to meet 61.15 without more. For not meeting medical qualification due to the failure to meet 61.68 requirements, yes. Suspension for violating 61.15, also yes.
 
Most BasicMed holders probably don't hold an unexpired FAA medical certificate. As I understand it, the FAA can't revoke or suspend expired medical certificates.
Part 68 allows the FAA to look into whether a pilot in fact meets medical requirements.
 
It's not in 61.51, it's in FAA order 2150, which contains the "standard" punishments for violations. There was a question "can the FAA suspend your pilots certificate for 61.51", to which the answer is absolutely yes, as an emergency action.

Yes, and that's explicitly spelled out in 61.15(e), but if you haven't violated 61.15, then what violation are they going to start an emergency action over? Babbitt was not convicted, so unless there was some other "motor vehicle action" as defined in 61.15(c), there was no requirement for him to report anything until his next medical application, if any.

I'm sure that if you jump through the HIMS hoops under a SI for a 3rd class, you could get it reinstated. So it isn't basicmed that they go after, it's your certificate.

That does not cover the case where you don't report. But if you get caught not reporting, that's probably permanent and potentially criminal. Just because you don't have a medical certificate does not mean they don't have other tools.

I don't see any requirement in 61.15 to report a DUI arrest before the next medical application, unless there is a conviction or other motor vehicle action.

On the other hand, based on the wording of the question on the medical form, a report of the arrest is required on the next medical application, whether or not there was a conviction or other motor vehicle action. Penalties for failure to disclose are authorized in 18 USC 1001 and 3571, which are specifically cited on the form.

It seems like there might be a hole there because there's no trigger to periodically check your National Drivers Registry records unless it happens at Basicmed renewal.

I presume that the FAA could check the driver registry when they receive notice of the pilot's completion of the BasicMed course. 68.11(a) explicitly allows them to use information from the driver registry as a basis for deciding whether to inquire into the pilot's qualifications.
 
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I wasn't talking about Babbit, this branched from something much further up.

Yes, obviously 61.15 requires a MVA for an alcohol problem. But how do you get a DUI without a motor vehicle?

What constitutes a motor vehicle is very wide. Several years ago the police in my mother's neighborhood stopped a young man on a skateboard for drinking. I don't know if that got thrown out, but I cannot figure out where that motor was.
 
..., but it still will end up triggering a review of your medical.


At least part of the question is what happens when there is no medical to review, such as someone flying under Basic Med (or perhaps Sport Pilots or glider pilots). The FAA would then have to use a certificate action, but that seems to have different criteria.

If @Palmpilot is correct when he says,

I don't see any requirement in 61.15 to report a DUI arrest before the next medical application, unless there is a conviction or other motor vehicle action.

then a pilot without a medical would never report anything, and if his driver's license were never taken away he'd still be legal to fly under Basic or Sport.
 
I deleted my recent post because I misread the underlying premise. I'm only mentioning now because HalfFast quoted part of it. If you get arrested but there's no action taken, it indeed doesn't mandate an immediate report. However, in most states, you'll get some administrative action even if you are not ultimately convicted. There's usually at least a suspension for being over the per se limit.

As for those without medicals escaping detection that their charges were beat or pleaded down to a non-DUI offense, well it would seem that Congress wasn't worried about that.

You have to understand that 65.15 and Basic Med were not the FAA's doing and they had little discretion in the matter. Both were directed by enacted law. The DUI stuff was all a knee jerk reaction to the Northwest Airlines 650 incident where not only did both pilots and the flight engineer drink substantially before the flight, the local (Fargo, ND) FAA guys KNEW it and failed to act in a timely manner. Congress decided the FAA needed a little more adult supervision. They're less concerned about basic med or other recreational stuff. They only started to get concerned again after the medical-less balloon commercial ops a few years back.
 
At least part of the question is what happens when there is no medical to review, such as someone flying under Basic Med (or perhaps Sport Pilots or glider pilots). The FAA would then have to use a certificate action, but that seems to have different criteria.

If @Palmpilot is correct when he says,



then a pilot without a medical would never report anything, and if his driver's license were never taken away he'd still be legal to fly under Basic or Sport.

61.16(e) is the section. "Each person holding a certificate issued under this part shall provide a written report of each motor vehicle action to the FAA..."

Both your license and any FAA medical are certificates. If you hold a license and a medical, then you have two certificates issued under part 61. If you're on Basicmed, then you have one.
 
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